Subject: [teres] Oli for bearing Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:26:44 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis L., Pablo Roufogalis L. To: teres@aiko.com Hello to all. I finally read (rapidly) the old digests on the platter and bearing. Some comment that might be useful even at this point: 1) Forget about auto gear oil. They have what are called EP agents. They are corrosive and reactive and on top of all really unneeded. The oil might may turn into a gooey stuff and the EP agents harm the finish and more important, the polish of the metal surfaces. You don't want any metal-to-metal contact which might come out of the surface damage. 2) The right oil is probably mineral oil with R&O (rust and oxidation) additives. These are usually available as mineral hydraulic oils. These are not available at service stations, but in gallon or larger containers at industrial suppliers.They are cheap. Fancier oils can probably be used but are probably unneeded. 3) At the speeds that would be present in the bearing and in the walls, there's no chance that any hydrodynamic effect be relevant. So the thickness of the oil film would be related only to its viscosity and stickiness. 4) Directionally, the more polished the metal surfaces, the lighter the oil that can be used (thinner film) and the easier it would turn. A case can be made to run the platter with a very light oil for sometime (no idea how long but 10 or 20 hours sound reasonable) to further polish the surfaces and then switch to a heavier oil for dampening. This procedure could be totally unneeded, specially for the bearing walls. This issue probably needs actual experimentation, to get to a final balance between polishing, oil viscosity, resistance to turn and bearing tolerances. Shaft diameter is also a variable. But, as the platter is heavy, these issues could be irrelevant. 5) Forget about STP, It is too sticky and viscous. Is really meant for other purposes, mainly make money for the manufacturers out of people's gullibility. 6) I'd go for the most polished surfaces possibly with the machine tools available, as a safeguard. And stand on other's shoulders for the oil and bearing clearances. It's a matter of matching the oil available from tt manufacturers to an industrial viscosity grade. Which viscosity was finally chosen for the bearing design? Regards, Pablo Roufogalis L. papablo@aretecnica.com (se dice papablo atencion de aretecnica punto com) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: Re: [teres] Oli for bearing Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:46:01 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Pablo, Mineral oils in several viscosities used to be offered in "foreign car" (this being a relative term in today's international terms) parts stores here in the States. This was meant for the modification of "airplane" or "lever" type shock absorbers that the British sports cars of the '60's were cursed with. I still remember taking apart the shocks from the front of my '67 Austin Healy 3000, and figuring out how to do this, long before this became a popular trend, and those replacement oils became available, sometime during the late '70's. At the time I had no idea what oils to use, as they had not been offered yet, so I used gear oil, along with a valving modification (yes, folks, I've been modifying anything & everything from sports equipment to whole houses for as long as I can remember). This worked very well, if a bit *too* stiffly (even stiffer than the Konis I modified the rear suspension to accept), only not for long. The oil and the seals did not get along well, and the increased fluid pressure blew them out in fairly short order. No problem, I got another pair of shocks from the junkyard, remade them using a heavy-ish jack oil which was thinner than the gear oil, and never had to do it again. A racing buddy suggested the oil while trading war stories about modified AH Sprites, which we had both owned. I had forgotten all about the way the gear oil attacked the seals. Thanks for reminding me about the additives, even if I wasn't specifically planning on using that again. I don't have any idea if a selection of mineral oils is available nowadays, there can't be much call for modifying those shocks any more, but it might be worth a look. I must differ with you on the subject of the STP. While it is of no benefit to users of our tightly toleranced bearings, it still is quite useful for tightening up the sloppy bearings of cheaper turntables, and other such things. I first learned about using really thick oils to swamp the effect of other mechanical fluctuations in a system when I worked for Revox, back in '68. When a tape deck showed up (tape machines were all they imported into the States back then) that couldn't meet published specs, and this was extremely rare-Revox machinery generally was seriously under-specified to be sure that all would pass-we would just take apart the capstan motors, and re-lubricate with STP. The machine would afterward exceed the specs by a wide margin. A simple matter of swamping other effects with the viscosity used to raise smooth, controllable drag. Not what you would use on super high quality bearings, but still useful in the right situation, even if not in auto engines. I am not aware of any viscosity being chosen as "official", that being left still open after some debate, and open to user experimentation. Bryce, our machinist may have a preferance based on his experience and the tolerances he is machining into our bearings. Chris, Thom, what was Bryce's recommendation? After consideration of a few possible oils, the focus of interest went on to other topics.... Igor --- "Pablo Roufogalis L." wrote: > Hello to all. > > I finally read (rapidly) the old digests on the > platter and bearing. Some > comment that might be useful even at this point: > > 1) Forget about auto gear oil. They have what are > called EP agents. They > are corrosive and reactive and on top of all really > unneeded. The oil > might may turn into a gooey stuff and the EP agents > harm the finish and > more important, the polish of the metal surfaces. > You don't want any > metal-to-metal contact which might come out of the > surface damage. > > 2) The right oil is probably mineral oil with R&O > (rust and oxidation) > additives. These are usually available as mineral > hydraulic oils. These > are not available at service stations, but in gallon > or larger containers > at industrial suppliers.They are cheap. Fancier oils > can probably be used > but are probably unneeded. > > 3) At the speeds that would be present in the > bearing and in the walls, > there's no chance that any hydrodynamic effect be > relevant. So the > thickness of the oil film would be related only to > its viscosity and > stickiness. > > 4) Directionally, the more polished the metal > surfaces, the lighter the > oil that can be used (thinner film) and the easier > it would turn. A case > can be made to run the platter with a very light oil > for sometime (no idea > how long but 10 or 20 hours sound reasonable) to > further polish the > surfaces and then switch to a heavier oil for > dampening. This procedure > could be totally unneeded, specially for the bearing > walls. This issue > probably needs actual experimentation, to get to a > final balance between > polishing, oil viscosity, resistance to turn and > bearing tolerances. Shaft > diameter is also a variable. But, as the platter is > heavy, these issues > could be irrelevant. > > 5) Forget about STP, It is too sticky and viscous. > Is really meant for > other purposes, mainly make money for the > manufacturers out of people's > gullibility. > > 6) I'd go for the most polished surfaces possibly > with the machine tools > available, as a safeguard. And stand on other's > shoulders for the oil and > bearing clearances. It's a matter of matching the > oil available from tt > manufacturers to an industrial viscosity grade. > > Which viscosity was finally chosen for the bearing > design? > > Regards, > > Pablo Roufogalis L. > papablo@aretecnica.com > (se dice papablo atencion de aretecnica punto com) > ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite > http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm > Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com Subject: Re(3): [teres] Oil for bearing Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:09:51 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis L., Pablo Roufogalis L. To: teres@aiko.com Hello again. I found a candidate. It is an ISO 22 meeting MIL-L-3572A. To give you an idea, it is similar in viscosity to a grade 50 engine oil. Due to the graphite, it is black. Very distinctive. Manufacturer is: Convoy Oil Philadelphia 1412 N. Front St. P.O. Box 29336 Philadelphia, PA 19125 Phone: (215) 739-5281 Fax: (215) 739-6933 I'd guess if someone geographically close kindly requests a one-quart sample for distribution it would last forever. There's a second candidate but specs are not provided. This one is a synthetic (Polyalkylene Glycol) with colloidal graphite also. The MIL spec is MIL-L-17745A. I e-mailed Convoy requesting the physical specs. Will inform. The first candidate is overkill. The second is probably over-mass-murder. You don't need at all the added stability of a synth for this application. Regards, Pablo Roufogalis L. papablo@aretecnica.com (se dice papablo atencion de aretecnica punto com) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: Re: Re(3): [teres] Oil for bearing Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:35:25 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Pablo, Overkill is OK in serious audio. Do you favor graphite over, say Teflon (and for what reasons)? I suppose we should rule out Moly Disulphide (never considered seriously previously on these pages) as it is meant to settle out on the metal surfaces, and this does not at all sound like a good idea for surfaces machined for tolerances as tight as ours. I have had good results with a MS based lubricant in skate bearings meant for high performance & frequent replacement, but this is hardly an analogous situation. Your thoughts and operative guidelines? Any reason to think that oils with additives like graphite, MS, or Teflon, putting questions of lubrication and stability (as isolated issues) to the side for just a moment, may (or may not) be as (microscopically) *quiet* as oils without any additives of a particulant nature? Igor --- "Pablo Roufogalis L." wrote: > Hello again. > > I found a candidate. It is an ISO 22 meeting > MIL-L-3572A. To give you an > idea, it is similar in viscosity to a grade 50 > engine oil. Due to the > graphite, it is black. Very distinctive. > > Manufacturer is: > > Convoy Oil > Philadelphia 1412 N. Front St. > P.O. Box 29336 > Philadelphia, PA 19125 > Phone: (215) 739-5281 > Fax: (215) 739-6933 > > I'd guess if someone geographically close kindly > requests a one-quart > sample for distribution it would last forever. > > There's a second candidate but specs are not > provided. This one is a > synthetic (Polyalkylene Glycol) with colloidal > graphite also. The MIL spec > is MIL-L-17745A. I e-mailed Convoy requesting the > physical specs. Will > inform. > > The first candidate is overkill. The second is > probably over-mass-murder. > You don't need at all the added stability of a synth > for this application. > > Regards, > > Pablo Roufogalis L. > papablo@aretecnica.com > (se dice papablo atencion de aretecnica punto com) > ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite > http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm > Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com Subject: Re: Re(2): [teres] Oil for bearing Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:52:54 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com Hi, Pablo on 4/18/00 06:37, Pablo Roufogalis L. at papablo@aretecnica.com wrote: > Dear Igor, > > Many thanks for your comments. Yes, thanks once again, Igor. > > One overkill approach (but isn't it what the high-end business is about?) > would be to use the spec'ed viscosity with some sort of dry lubricant. > Colloidal graphite seems right. I plan on such an additive, but was considering the teflon-in-mineral oil suspension marketed in the US under the brand names "Tetra Lube", "Tetra Bike" and "Tetra Gun". I currently use it in my Oracle bearing (as well as on my bikes and guns and other precision bearings). I am not a Mechanical Engineer by any means, and it has been years and years since college chemistry classes, but the use of colloidal graphite concerns me. I know that the use of powdered graphite in door locks, while lubricating the mechanisms for awhile ultimately ends up gumming up the works, and in worst cases, the graphite due to it's position on the chemical activity spectrum will accelerate galvanic corrosion and pitting of other materials. Granted, our bearing surfaces will always be covered by the base oil, which should exclude oxygen and moisture, but I hate to take the chance with graphite. > > Will do a search later for such oils and let you know. I'd be interested in your results. > > One thing that makes it right is that even if the graphite colloids break > down, it will go down to the bearing, where it's most useful, > directionally. So would the teflon, if it comes out of suspension. > > We can claim it's by design ;-) Well, it was discussed and decided to not incorporate the much-touted spiral groove to "pump" lubricant back up to the top of the bearing -- like some of those pricy inferior designs 8^) > > Were this a commercial venture, we could repackage an industrial product > and resell it at huge margins. We would have to find a catchy name for it, > though. Snake Oil would be truthful but I'd guess not adequate for > marketing purposes ;-) How about "Tetra Table"? Steve Z near Libby, MT Subject: [teres] Oil vs resistance Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:36:48 -0700 From: Sellek, Grant (TSA), Sellek, Grant (TSA) To: 'teres@aiko.com' I do not remember the general conclusion of the early Teres discussion on the desirability of using a heavy viscous oil to act as an engine brake and therfore improve speed regulation, like the Verdier TT. I am still in favour of this idea. At least in theory. However, because the bearing, and its oil, is so close to the axis of rotation, it is not likely to be very effective unless the viscosity is extremely high. Far more effective would be an oil bath near the outer lip of the platter. I am considering this. It would comprise a ring-shaped bath under the platter, sitting on the plinth, maybe 10" or 11" diameter (although I suppose the whole thing would be more accessible if it was 12.25" diameter, just outboard of the platter). Fill with a medium grade of oil. Attach two paddles to the platter, on opposing sides, so that they dip into the bath. The paddles need only be the size of a spatula. Adjust the angle of the paddles for the desired resistance to the motor. If resistance is not high enough even with the paddles at 90 degrees to their motion, either try a heavier grade of oil or attach another pair of paddles. Please show me the error of my ways. I was prompted to write this because it seemed that the "Oil" thread is heading towards minimum friction *and* minimum viscosity. I am not sure I agree about the latter, as it means very light steady-state loads on the motor. Grant Grant Sellek Adelaide, Australia grant.sellek@transport.sa.gov.au -----Original Message----- From: papablo@aretecnica.com [mailto:papablo@aretecnica.com] Sent: Tuesday, 18 April 2000 11:11 pm To: teres@aiko.com Subject: [teres] Oil for bearing I found a candidate. It is an ISO 22 meeting MIL-L-3572A. To give you an idea, it is similar in viscosity to a grade 5W engine oil. Due to the graphite, it is black. Very distinctive. Manufacturer is: Convoy Oil Philadelphia 1412 N. Front St. P.O. Box 29336 Philadelphia, PA 19125 Phone: (215) 739-5281 Fax: (215) 739-6933 I'd guess if someone geographically close kindly requests a one-quart sample for distribution it would last forever. There's a second candidate but specs are not provided. This one is a synthetic (Polyalkylene Glycol) with colloidal graphite also. The MIL spec is MIL-L-17745A. I e-mailed Convoy requesting the physical specs. Will inform. The first candidate is overkill. The second is probably over-mass-murder. You don't need at all the added stability of a synth for this application. Regards, Pablo Roufogalis L. Subject: Re: [teres] Oil vs resistance Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:06:19 -0700 From: PEARL Cust Serv, PEARL Cust Serv To: teres@aiko.com Sellek, Grant wrote: SNIP > Fill with a medium grade of > oil. Attach two paddles to the platter, on opposing sides, so that they dip > into the bath. The paddles need only be the size of a spatula. Adjust the > angle of the paddles for the desired resistance to the motor. If resistance > is not high enough even with the paddles at 90 degrees to their motion, > either try a heavier grade of oil or attach another pair of paddles. Paddles flowing through a liquid create turbulence and this equals *noise* I'm sure that this will create far more serious problems than the one(s) you are trying to solve . . . . > Please show me the error of my ways. I was prompted to write this because it > seemed that the "Oil" thread is heading towards minimum friction *and* > minimum viscosity. I am not sure I agree about the latter, as it means very > light steady-state loads on the motor. While I agree to an extent with the idea of loading the motor, such an undertaking requires the development of a "perfect" load. Anything less will be a source of wow . . . > Grant > > Grant Sellek > Adelaide, Australia > grant.sellek@transport.sa.gov.au Best regards, Bill - PEARL, Inc. I can hardly wait for the dinosaurs to die off . . . . again ! © 2000 Subject: RE: [teres] Oil vs resistance Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 00:27:06 -0700 From: Sellek, Grant (TSA), Sellek, Grant (TSA) To: 'teres@aiko.com' Thanks Bill. Excellent points. Grant -----Original Message----- From: PEARL Cust Serv Paddles flowing through a liquid create turbulence and this equals *noise* I'm sure that this will create far more serious problems than the one(s) you are trying to solve . . . . While I agree to an extent with the idea of loading the motor, such an undertaking requires the development of a "perfect" load. Anything less will be a source of wow . . . Subject: [teres] Teres Update Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:53:31 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com I have some information about assembling the Teres bearing to pass on. Bryce machined the bearings with a very little (0.0005 - 0.0007") clearance for the bearing. Because of the accuracy of the machining there will be no metal to metal contact and wobble will be reduced to microscopic levels. The catch is that if you don't use the right procedures you will not be able to assemble the bearing. The trick is to avoid trapping air inside of the bearing. Bryce suggests that you start by filling the recess for the ball bearing with oil and then press the ball in place. This will eliminate an air pocket under the ball bearing. Next add a generous quantity of oil in the bearing, but do NOT get any oil on the bearing shaft. Without oil on the bearing shaft air will be able to escape. It may take quite a bit of pressure to force out the excess oil but unlike air the oil will not compress. If there is air in the bearing it will act as a spring and will keep the bearing from seating as designed. If air does get trapped in the bearing it probably would work it's way out eventually, but it may be days or even weeks. Bryce tried assembling a bearing with 20 and 50 weight oils using this procedure and had no difficulty. Disassembly requires some force but is not a problem. For those that were not involved with the design discussions, part of the design criteria was high degree of viscous damping. This helps to swamp out very small speed variations caused by stylus drag. When your bearing is assembled it should turn very smoothly but the oil will produce quite a bit of drag. The close fit and drag from the oil are part of the design. There has been a lot of discussion about the best oils for the bearing on the Teres list. If your interested the information is buried in the digests. I don't recall us reaching a consensus and experimentation with different viscosity's is planned. Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Update Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:00:47 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: Thom Mackris; Thom G. Mackris Thom, Don't take this wrong, but, between you, me, and the keyboard: "I TOLD THEM SO, NYAH, NYAH..." There, sorry, just had to get that out before composing a more politic public version about predicting the need for a pressure relief. Feel free to cut me off, you have a nice way of putting things like this. I'm too tired to risk doing it roughly tonight. Bet it's going to be a *bitch* to dis-assemble the bearing, when necessary. This will make experimenting with different oils *very* difficult. Looks like I'll have to risk drilling my own relief, as predicted. Igor --- Chris Brady wrote: > I have some information about assembling the Teres > bearing > to pass on. Bryce machined the bearings with a very > little > (0.0005 - 0.0007") clearance for the bearing. > Because of > the accuracy of the machining there will be no metal > to > metal contact and wobble will be reduced to > microscopic > levels. The catch is that if you don't use the > right > procedures you will not be able to assemble the > bearing. > > The trick is to avoid trapping air inside of the > bearing. > Bryce suggests that you start by filling the recess > for the > ball bearing with oil and then press the ball in > place. This > will eliminate an air pocket under the ball bearing. > Next > add a generous quantity of oil in the bearing, but > do NOT > get any oil on the bearing shaft. Without oil on > the bearing > shaft air will be able to escape. It may take quite > a bit of > pressure to force out the excess oil but unlike air > the oil will > not compress. If there is air in the bearing it will > act as a > spring and will keep the bearing from seating as > designed. If > air does get trapped in the bearing it probably > would work it's > way out eventually, but it may be days or even > weeks. > > Bryce tried assembling a bearing with 20 and 50 > weight oils using > this procedure and had no difficulty. Disassembly > requires some > force but is not a problem. > > For those that were not involved with the design > discussions, part > of the design criteria was high degree of viscous > damping. This > helps to swamp out very small speed variations > caused by stylus > drag. When your bearing is assembled it should turn > very smoothly > but the oil will produce quite a bit of drag. The > close fit and > drag from the oil are part of the design. > > There has been a lot of discussion about the best > oils for the bearing > on the Teres list. If your interested the > information is buried in > the digests. I don't recall us reaching a consensus > and experimentation > with different viscosity's is planned. > > Chris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Update Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:34:21 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com WOW! This sounds like one or two orders of magnitude more precise than my Merrill! Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Brady To: Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 10:52 PM Subject: [teres] Teres Update I have some information about assembling the Teres bearing to pass on. Bryce machined the bearings with a very little (0.0005 - 0.0007") clearance for the bearing. Because of the accuracy of the machining there will be no metal to metal contact and wobble will be reduced to microscopic levels. The catch is that if you don't use the right procedures you will not be able to assemble the bearing. The trick is to avoid trapping air inside of the bearing. Bryce suggests that you start by filling the recess for the ball bearing with oil and then press the ball in place. This will eliminate an air pocket under the ball bearing. Next add a generous quantity of oil in the bearing, but do NOT get any oil on the bearing shaft. Without oil on the bearing shaft air will be able to escape. It may take quite a bit of pressure to force out the excess oil but unlike air the oil will not compress. If there is air in the bearing it will act as a spring and will keep the bearing from seating as designed. If air does get trapped in the bearing it probably would work it's way out eventually, but it may be days or even weeks. Bryce tried assembling a bearing with 20 and 50 weight oils using this procedure and had no difficulty. Disassembly requires some force but is not a problem. For those that were not involved with the design discussions, part of the design criteria was high degree of viscous damping. This helps to swamp out very small speed variations caused by stylus drag. When your bearing is assembled it should turn very smoothly but the oil will produce quite a bit of drag. The close fit and drag from the oil are part of the design. There has been a lot of discussion about the best oils for the bearing on the Teres list. If your interested the information is buried in the digests. I don't recall us reaching a consensus and experimentation with different viscosity's is planned. Chris Subject: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:13:07 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com I believe we won't be hearing from Chris until Thursday as he's out of town on business until then. I thought however that I'd get this out to the group consciousness for comentary. By not getting oil on the bearing shaft, I'm guessing that Chris means no oil on the bearing *wall* and no oil on the *shaft*. Oil on either surface would trap air. Isn't there a risk of scratching the shaft and/or the bearing wall during assembly? I'm speaking from the experience of fitting my Merrill bearing whose shaft is affixed to a rather unwieldy subplatter, approximately 7" diameter. Our bearing shaft is considerably more managable however, and controlling it should not be such a big problem. I wonder if it isn't worth the extra trouble to risk getting some air in the bearing and to let it eventually come out in a couple of weeks. The problem with this, I suppose is that when the air comes out, there's no oil with which to replace it. I would think that in any event, only a minimal amount of excess oil should be used when filling the bearing ... enough oil to cover the ball at the bottom plus the calculated volume taken up by the bearing clearance between shaft and bearing wall, plus a little extra for insurance. This seems to work fine for my Merrill. If you wanted to avoid getting any oil on the bearing wall, I would think that a syringe with a couple of inches of tubing attached would do the trick, as would an eye dropper. Comments? Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Brady To: Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 10:52 PM Subject: [teres] Teres Update I have some information about assembling the Teres bearing to pass on. Bryce machined the bearings with a very little (0.0005 - 0.0007") clearance for the bearing. Because of the accuracy of the machining there will be no metal to metal contact and wobble will be reduced to microscopic levels. The catch is that if you don't use the right procedures you will not be able to assemble the bearing. The trick is to avoid trapping air inside of the bearing. Bryce suggests that you start by filling the recess for the ball bearing with oil and then press the ball in place. This will eliminate an air pocket under the ball bearing. Next add a generous quantity of oil in the bearing, but do NOT get any oil on the bearing shaft. Without oil on the bearing shaft air will be able to escape. It may take quite a bit of pressure to force out the excess oil but unlike air the oil will not compress. If there is air in the bearing it will act as a spring and will keep the bearing from seating as designed. If air does get trapped in the bearing it probably would work it's way out eventually, but it may be days or even weeks. Bryce tried assembling a bearing with 20 and 50 weight oils using this procedure and had no difficulty. Disassembly requires some force but is not a problem. For those that were not involved with the design discussions, part of the design criteria was high degree of viscous damping. This helps to swamp out very small speed variations caused by stylus drag. When your bearing is assembled it should turn very smoothly but the oil will produce quite a bit of drag. The close fit and drag from the oil are part of the design. There has been a lot of discussion about the best oils for the bearing on the Teres list. If your interested the information is buried in the digests. I don't recall us reaching a consensus and experimentation with different viscosity's is planned. Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:08:55 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com Thom Mackris wrote: > > I believe we won't be hearing from Chris until Thursday as he's out of town > on business until then. I thought however that I'd get this out to the > group consciousness for comentary. I am a bit under the weather today so I canceled my trip. > By not getting oil on the bearing shaft, I'm guessing that Chris means no > oil on the bearing *wall* and no oil on the *shaft*. Oil on either surface > would trap air. Isn't there a risk of scratching the shaft and/or the > bearing wall during assembly? I'm speaking from the experience of fitting > my Merrill bearing whose shaft is affixed to a rather unwieldy subplatter, > approximately 7" diameter. Our bearing shaft is considerably more managable > however, and controlling it should not be such a big problem. Thanks Thom. You are right, oil on the bearing wall will also trap air. Assembling the bearing without oil on the surface should not be a problem since the brass bearing housing is made of a much softer material. Bryce assured me that there is no risk in doing dry assembly so long as reasonable care is taken. > > I wonder if it isn't worth the extra trouble to risk getting some air in the > bearing and to let it eventually come out in a couple of weeks. The problem > with this, I suppose is that when the air comes out, there's no oil with > which to replace it. > > I would think that in any event, only a minimal amount of excess oil should > be used when filling the bearing ... enough oil to cover the ball at the > bottom plus the calculated volume taken up by the bearing clearance between > shaft and bearing wall, plus a little extra for insurance. This seems to > work fine for my Merrill. I think that it would be best to have the bearing completely full of oil, including the recess at the top. Over filling wastes a little oil and is a bit messy but insures optimum lubrication. Assembling the bearing before the platter is placed on the shaft makes it easy to clean up any excess oil. > If you wanted to avoid getting any oil on the bearing wall, I would think > that a syringe with a couple of inches of tubing attached would do the > trick, as would an eye dropper. Good idea. Chris > Comments? > > Cheers, > Thom > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris Brady > To: > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 10:52 PM > Subject: [teres] Teres Update > > I have some information about assembling the Teres bearing > to pass on. Bryce machined the bearings with a very little > (0.0005 - 0.0007") clearance for the bearing. Because of > the accuracy of the machining there will be no metal to > metal contact and wobble will be reduced to microscopic > levels. The catch is that if you don't use the right > procedures you will not be able to assemble the bearing. > > The trick is to avoid trapping air inside of the bearing. > Bryce suggests that you start by filling the recess for the > ball bearing with oil and then press the ball in place. This > will eliminate an air pocket under the ball bearing. Next > add a generous quantity of oil in the bearing, but do NOT > get any oil on the bearing shaft. Without oil on the bearing > shaft air will be able to escape. It may take quite a bit of > pressure to force out the excess oil but unlike air the oil will > not compress. If there is air in the bearing it will act as a > spring and will keep the bearing from seating as designed. If > air does get trapped in the bearing it probably would work it's > way out eventually, but it may be days or even weeks. > > Bryce tried assembling a bearing with 20 and 50 weight oils using > this procedure and had no difficulty. Disassembly requires some > force but is not a problem. > > For those that were not involved with the design discussions, part > of the design criteria was high degree of viscous damping. This > helps to swamp out very small speed variations caused by stylus > drag. When your bearing is assembled it should turn very smoothly > but the oil will produce quite a bit of drag. The close fit and > drag from the oil are part of the design. > > There has been a lot of discussion about the best oils for the bearing > on the Teres list. If your interested the information is buried in > the digests. I don't recall us reaching a consensus and experimentation > with different viscosity's is planned. > > Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Update Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:16:09 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 6/27/00 08:02, Thom Mackris at thom_mackris@hotmail.com wrote: > WOW! This sounds like one or two orders of magnitude more precise than my > Merrill! > > Thom I am sure that my Oracle bearing is nowhere near this tolerance. I recall some "pneumatic" resistance when doing the "STP experiment" in the early stages of our project, but really didn't have any appreciable problem seating the bearing in the well. This is going to be awesome. Steve Z near Libby, MT > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris Brady > To: > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 10:52 PM > Subject: [teres] Teres Update > > > I have some information about assembling the Teres bearing > to pass on. Bryce machined the bearings with a very little > (0.0005 - 0.0007") clearance for the bearing. Because of > the accuracy of the machining there will be no metal to > metal contact and wobble will be reduced to microscopic > levels. The catch is that if you don't use the right > procedures you will not be able to assemble the bearing. > > The trick is to avoid trapping air inside of the bearing. > Bryce suggests that you start by filling the recess for the > ball bearing with oil and then press the ball in place. This > will eliminate an air pocket under the ball bearing. Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:09:43 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Most impressive machine work. I look forward to the superb freedom from FM modulation that this should give. I am concerned about the difficulty of disassembling the bearing in order to try different oils, for instance, though. Perhaps the pressure relief I advocated early on is still a good idea?? Is it too late to add a small drill through from the bottom of the bearing well to the drilled area meant to accommodate a cone thread, at the bottom of the bearing? The installed cone, or, alternately, a threaded plug would easily then seal the relief. I suppose I could take a run at it by hand, but this would be very risky that way, with none of the nice hold-down equipment a machine shop is equipped with. I would hate to miss the target area at the edge of the well recess, and maybe hit the area the ball sits on! Igor --- Chris Brady wrote: > Thom Mackris wrote: > > > > I believe we won't be hearing from Chris until > Thursday as he's out of town > > on business until then. I thought however that > I'd get this out to the > > group consciousness for comentary. > > I am a bit under the weather today so I canceled my > trip. > > > By not getting oil on the bearing shaft, I'm > guessing that Chris means no > > oil on the bearing *wall* and no oil on the > *shaft*. Oil on either surface > > would trap air. Isn't there a risk of scratching > the shaft and/or the > > bearing wall during assembly? I'm speaking from > the experience of fitting > > my Merrill bearing whose shaft is affixed to a > rather unwieldy subplatter, > > approximately 7" diameter. Our bearing shaft is > considerably more managable > > however, and controlling it should not be such a > big problem. > > Thanks Thom. You are right, oil on the bearing wall > will also trap air. > Assembling the bearing without oil on the surface > should not be a problem > since the brass bearing housing is made of a much > softer material. Bryce > assured me that there is no risk in doing dry > assembly so long as reasonable > care is taken. > > > > I wonder if it isn't worth the extra trouble to > risk getting some air in the > > bearing and to let it eventually come out in a > couple of weeks. The problem > > with this, I suppose is that when the air comes > out, there's no oil with > > which to replace it. > > > > I would think that in any event, only a minimal > amount of excess oil should > > be used when filling the bearing ... enough oil to > cover the ball at the > > bottom plus the calculated volume taken up by the > bearing clearance between > > shaft and bearing wall, plus a little extra for > insurance. This seems to > > work fine for my Merrill. > > I think that it would be best to have the bearing > completely full of oil, > including the recess at the top. Over filling > wastes a little oil and is > a bit messy but insures optimum lubrication. > Assembling the bearing before > the platter is placed on the shaft makes it easy to > clean up any excess oil. > > > If you wanted to avoid getting any oil on the > bearing wall, I would think > > that a syringe with a couple of inches of tubing > attached would do the > > trick, as would an eye dropper. > > Good idea. > > Chris > > > Comments? > > > > Cheers, > > Thom > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Chris Brady > > To: > > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 10:52 PM > > Subject: [teres] Teres Update > > > > I have some information about assembling the Teres > bearing > > to pass on. Bryce machined the bearings with a > very little > > (0.0005 - 0.0007") clearance for the bearing. > Because of > > the accuracy of the machining there will be no > metal to > > metal contact and wobble will be reduced to > microscopic > > levels. The catch is that if you don't use the > right > > procedures you will not be able to assemble the > bearing. > > > > The trick is to avoid trapping air inside of the > bearing. > > Bryce suggests that you start by filling the > recess for the > > ball bearing with oil and then press the ball in > place. This > > will eliminate an air pocket under the ball > bearing. Next > > add a generous quantity of oil in the bearing, but > do NOT > > get any oil on the bearing shaft. Without oil on > the bearing > > shaft air will be able to escape. It may take > quite a bit of > > pressure to force out the excess oil but unlike > air the oil will > > not compress. If there is air in the bearing it > will act as a > > spring and will keep the bearing from seating as > designed. If > > air does get trapped in the bearing it probably > would work it's > > way out eventually, but it may be days or even > weeks. > > > > Bryce tried assembling a bearing with 20 and 50 > weight oils using > > this procedure and had no difficulty. Disassembly > requires some > > force but is not a problem. > > > > For those that were not involved with the design > discussions, part > > of the design criteria was high degree of viscous > damping. This > > helps to swamp out very small speed variations > caused by stylus > > drag. When your bearing is assembled it should > turn very smoothly > > but the oil will produce quite a bit of drag. The > close fit and > > drag from the oil are part of the design. > > > > There has been a lot of discussion about the best > oils for the bearing > > on the Teres list. If your interested the > information is buried in > > the digests. I don't recall us reaching a > consensus and experimentation > > with different viscosity's is planned. > > > > Chris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:11:12 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Good point about cleanup, Chris. I lost track of the fact that the platter would not be on the bearing at this stage of assembly. I was envisioning cleaning up the overspill with *very* long Q-Tips. It sounds as if you're thinking of a completely wet assembly rather than the dry assembly that Bryce recommends. This could take a very long time for the oil to creep up between the shaft and the housing. I know that my Merrill takes about 5-10 minutes for the bearing to settle in when I use this technique (with the platter & subplatter sitting on the bearing). Am I missing something here? Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Brady Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure [snip] I think that it would be best to have the bearing completely full of oil, including the recess at the top. Over filling wastes a little oil and is a bit messy but insures optimum lubrication. Assembling the bearing before the platter is placed on the shaft makes it easy to clean up any excess oil. > If you wanted to avoid getting any oil on the bearing wall, I would think > that a syringe with a couple of inches of tubing attached would do the > trick, as would an eye dropper. Good idea. Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:54:54 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com Thom Mackris wrote: > It sounds as if you're thinking of a completely wet assembly rather than the > dry assembly that Bryce recommends. This could take a very long time for > the oil to creep up between the shaft and the housing. I know that my > Merrill takes about 5-10 minutes for the bearing to settle in when I use > this technique (with the platter & subplatter sitting on the bearing). Am I > missing something here? My point is that there should be enough oil in the bearing to completely fill any of the empty space with oil. If we put in too much the extra just spills out. The issue with assembly is to avoid trapping air. If there is too much oil in the bearing applying pressure will force the extra oil out. There is enough clearance to for the oil to escape, but it takes quite a bit of hand pressure. However, if air is trapped below the film of oil on the bearing surfaces it just compresses when you apply pressure you can't expel it. When you press in the shaft it just pops back out. Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:11:29 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com Igor Kuznetsoff wrote: > > Most impressive machine work. I look forward to the > superb freedom from FM modulation that this should > give. I am concerned about the difficulty of > disassembling the bearing in order to try different > oils, for instance, though. Perhaps the pressure > relief I advocated early on is still a good idea?? Is > it too late to add a small drill through from the > bottom of the bearing well to the drilled area meant > to accommodate a cone thread, at the bottom of the > bearing? The installed cone, or, alternately, a > threaded plug would easily then seal the relief. > I suppose I could take a run at it by hand, but this > would be very risky that way, with none of the nice > hold-down equipment a machine shop is equipped with. > I would hate to miss the target area at the edge of > the well recess, and maybe hit the area the ball sits > on! While a pressure relief hole would make assembly much easier it solves only part of the problem. I think that we want to insure that all of the cavities in the bearing are filled with oil. If we put in a pressure relief hole we are more likely to vent oil than air. So we end up with a lot of air in the bearing rather than the oil sump that was envisioned. I don't think that this will be a problem, it just will take a little extra time and care when assembling. Bryce had no difficulty assembling a bearing with 50 weight oil. Chris Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:00:49 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com This is beginning to make sense to me - I don't think that I'm just trying to convince myself of this If Bryce can get 50 weight to work fairly easily in such a tight tolerance bearing, we should have no problem. I'm guessing that 50 weight in this (high tolerance, dare I say mil-spec) bearing is equivalent to STP in the month of January in a "normal" bearing like Steve's Oracle or my Merrill. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Brady Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure [snip] I think that we want to insure that all of the cavities in the bearing are filled with oil. If we put in a pressure relief hole we are more likely to vent oil than air. So we end up with a lot of air in the bearing rather than the oil sump that was envisioned. I don't think that this will be a problem, it just will take a little extra time and care when assembling. Bryce had no difficulty assembling a bearing with 50 weight oil. Chris Subject: [teres] Teres Bearing Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:24:39 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis, Pablo Roufogalis To: teres@aiko.com At 12:43 PM 6/27/00, you wrote: >Thanks Thom. You are right, oil on the bearing wall will also trap air. >Assembling the bearing without oil on the surface should not be a problem >since the brass bearing housing is made of a much softer material. Bryce >assured me that there is no risk in doing dry assembly so long as reasonable >care is taken. Hello to all. Do I read this right? I'd say that there should be a film of oil in all contact surfaces, period. And the spaces should be filled with oil. Simply coating the surfaces and assembling is not optimum. I'd guess that a light oil would allow trapped air to escape within a reasonable amount of time. Adding pressure will reduce the required time. Turning the platter would probably help too. Removing the platter is not required to be done even on a yearly basis, no matter how good it feels, guys. I'd advise not to risk doing any of the old in-out in-out for kicks without lubrication. Metal to metal contact will microscopically affect the polishing and it would be a waste of all the effort with the machining. I'd say go with a light oil. With the degree of polishing and fit Bryce did there's probably little chance of any metal contact even with water! A heavy oil would create unneeded additional resistance, specially with tight tolerances. Speed stability is achieved by the platter mass. Excessive turning resistance could cause flutter or even wow, specially with a belt drive. The combination of a high inertia platter and a controller which tries not to control instantaneous speed is all that is needed. Please add IMHO wherever the above sound like I am absolutely sure of what I'm saying. Regards, Pablo Roufogalis L. proufo@cantv.net (se dice proufo atencion de cantevepuntonet) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:44:16 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pablo Roufogalis" > I'd say go with a light oil. With the degree of polishing and fit Bryce did > there's probably little chance of any metal contact even with water! A > heavy oil would create unneeded additional resistance, specially with tight > tolerances. Speed stability is achieved by the platter mass. Excessive > turning resistance could cause flutter or even wow, specially with a belt > drive. > > The combination of a high inertia platter and a controller which tries not > to control instantaneous speed is all that is needed. With absolutely no hands on experience, my guess is that this would be the better initial approach, especially since the motor is an unknown quantity. My math/physics is not to the standard of many terestrials, and converting the spec sheet to more familiar units of measure doesn't seem to help, either. Since no one knows for sure whether or not (considering the vagaries of drive belt materials proposed) the motor even has enough start torque to spin the platter from rest, lighter oil would seem to be the ticket to start. OTOH, I'm sure there are enough that disagree that we'll have a viscosity shootout in short order. My $0.02. Peter C Subject: RE: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:10:26 -0700 From: Sellek, Grant (TSA), Sellek, Grant (TSA) To: 'teres@aiko.com' I don't understand what would be wrong if we simply fill the brass housing *completely* with oil, to the very brim and even beyond with spillage, then press the shaft in? .....slowly, slowly.... .....spilly, spilly.... Grant Sellek Adelaide, Australia grant.sellek@transport.sa.gov.au -----Original Message----- From: Chris Brady [mailto:cbrady@sgi.com] Sent: Wednesday, 28 June 2000 2:14 am Thom Mackris wrote: > By not getting oil on the bearing shaft, I'm guessing that Chris means no > oil on the bearing *wall* and no oil on the *shaft*. .... Thanks Thom. You are right, oil on the bearing wall will also trap air. Assembling the bearing without oil on the surface should not be a problem > ....... > I would think that in any event, only a minimal amount of excess oil should > be used when filling the bearing ... enough oil to cover the ball at the > bottom plus the calculated volume taken up by the bearing clearance between > shaft and bearing wall, plus a little extra for insurance. This seems to > work fine for my Merrill. I think that it would be best to have the bearing completely full of oil, including the recess at the top. Over filling wastes a little oil and is a bit messy but insures optimum lubrication. Assembling the bearing before the platter is placed on the shaft makes it easy to clean up any excess oil. > If you wanted to avoid getting any oil on the bearing wall, I would think > that a syringe with a couple of inches of tubing attached would do the > trick, as would an eye dropper. Subject: RE: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:48:49 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis, Pablo Roufogalis To: teres@aiko.com At 10:07 PM 6/27/00, you wrote: >I don't understand what would be wrong if we simply fill the brass >housing *completely* with oil, to the very brim and even beyond >with spillage, then press the shaft in? This might take forever, as the amount of oil to be passed through a very thin clearance would be relatively speaking, very large. Probably filling to 1/5th the height would be more than enough. The clearance is so thin the volume of oil that has to rise is minuscule. I'd still coat the surfaces before assembly and wait for the air to escape. Perhaps I'm being too cautious. Regards, Pablo Roufogalis L. proufo@cantv.net (se dice proufo atencion de cantevepuntonet) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 00:35:55 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Chris, I am in agreement with you about forcing out as much of the trapped air as possible. Had, in fact thought just this through this way originally. Fortunately, I believe that (reasonably small quantities of) air will easily work themselves out in short order, to be replaced by a very small amount of the oil from the rebated upper section sump. Not that I am in disagreement about using pressure to force the air out - I have thought all along that that is the best way to do that. The problem is not with the *a*-ssembly of the bearing, but, as I have maintained all along, the difficulties will be with the *dis*-assembly of the unit. You will recall that I had said that gravity, a little time, and the weight of the platter (perhaps with a little assist) are all on our side during insertion. The problem will come when *removal* is needed. Gravity & time will *not* be on our side then! Just imagine attempting to s-s-s-s-s-l-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-w-w-w-w-w-w-l-y extract the spindle by muscle power for a few hours or more. Mechanical leverage would be extremely inadvisable, as it could distort/damage the spindle shoulder! The only safe way to remove the spindle will be with minimal pressure spread out over time. And how are we going to effect that easily & practically? A pressure relief would *not* preclude evacuating the air as you suggest, but, rather, just make the operation somewhat neater, by eliminating the need to meter such a precise amount of oil at the start of the operation, and reduce the amount of excess spilled over the top at completion. By closing the relief at the beginning of the insertion, and following your procedure as outlined until the oil reaches the top, air will be evacuated. Then the relief can be opened, and the excess oil released. That's the slower way, but it can be performed with the bearing installed in the chassis, so long as there is access to the bottom of the bearing. Alternately, both parts can be pre-oiled to protect them, oil placed in the bearing, and the spindle inserted just far enough so that no oil will spill when the entire assembly is turned upside down. Then the relief can be opened, and the spindle pushed in, *easily*, until all the air is forced out, the spindle seats, & the excess oil is pushed out. Just like a doctor would do with a hypodermic, which is, essentially the same shape, if you think about it, and for exactly the same reasons - to remove all the air in the hypo. This way would be much faster, but requires either that the assembly not be mounted in the chassis, or that the whole shebang could be turned upside down, which could be impractical after the 'table becomes a working entity. Removal, OTOH, would be an entirely different oil game with the relief. Simply open the relief & pull the spindle out. In seconds. Otherwise, I fear assembly may well, for all intents, purposes & practicality, become essentially permanent. Igor --- Chris Brady wrote: > Igor Kuznetsoff wrote: > > > > Most impressive machine work. I look forward to > the > > superb freedom from FM modulation that this should > > give. I am concerned about the difficulty of > > disassembling the bearing in order to try > different > > oils, for instance, though. Perhaps the pressure > > relief I advocated early on is still a good idea?? > Is > > it too late to add a small drill through from the > > bottom of the bearing well to the drilled area > meant > > to accommodate a cone thread, at the bottom of the > > bearing? The installed cone, or, alternately, a > > threaded plug would easily then seal the relief. > > I suppose I could take a run at it by hand, but > this > > would be very risky that way, with none of the > nice > > hold-down equipment a machine shop is equipped > with. > > I would hate to miss the target area at the edge > of > > the well recess, and maybe hit the area the ball > sits > > on! > > While a pressure relief hole would make assembly > much easier > it solves only part of the problem. I think that we > want > to insure that all of the cavities in the bearing > are filled > with oil. If we put in a pressure relief hole we are > more likely > to vent oil than air. So we end up with a lot of > air in the bearing > rather than the oil sump that was envisioned. > > I don't think that this will be a problem, it just > will take a little > extra time and care when assembling. Bryce had no > difficulty > assembling a bearing with 50 weight oil. > > Chris > > Chris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:48:11 -0700 From: Stanley Goudge, Stanley Goudge To: teres@aiko.com One thing I haven't heard yet would be to warm up the oil and bearing in a very low heat oven say 150 degrees and put the spindle in the freezer for an hour. Should open up the clearance and thin out the oil of choice. Stan At 05:37 PM 6/27/2000 -0600, you wrote: >This is beginning to make sense to me - I don't think that I'm just trying >to convince myself of this > >If Bryce can get 50 weight to work fairly easily in such a tight tolerance >bearing, we should have no problem. I'm guessing that 50 weight in this >(high tolerance, dare I say mil-spec) bearing is equivalent to STP in the >month of January in a "normal" bearing like Steve's Oracle or my Merrill. > >Cheers, >Thom > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Chris Brady >Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 5:06 PM >Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure > > >[snip] > >I think that we want to insure that all of the cavities in the bearing are >filled with oil. If we put in a pressure relief hole we are more likely to >vent oil than air. So we end up with a lot of air in the bearing rather >than the oil sump that was envisioned. > >I don't think that this will be a problem, it just will take a little extra >time and care when assembling. Bryce had no difficulty assembling a bearing >with 50 weight oil. > >Chris > Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:22:01 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Good point Stan. I had suggested chilling the bearing stub in order to fit it inside of the platter in the early stages of the bearing/platter design. The platter/bearing fit was ultimately determined to be looser than a "stress fit" as this tight a fit had negative implications toward the integrity of the platter. Dry ice would be good for cooling the bearing stub. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Stanley Goudge To: Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 6:41 AM Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure One thing I haven't heard yet would be to warm up the oil and bearing in a very low heat oven say 150 degrees and put the spindle in the freezer for an hour. Should open up the clearance and thin out the oil of choice. Stan Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:01:41 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Guys, These are good ideas for facilitating the assembly of the components. It might be difficult to heat & cool the parts separately once they are together for disassembly, though... Are you sure that you will *never* want or need to change the oil (if only after break-in), or perform any service, such as changing out/turning over the Delrin thrust pad? Would you prefer to replace the entire assembly if this became necessary? Speaking of the Delrin pad, it is a bit of a fly in the oilment. If the relief were to be drilled out, the pad could act as a stop valve if the drilling were not done precisely, as it must bypass the edge of the pad to allow oil to flow past it. This is one good reason why I would prefer to not try winging this drilling by hand, without the benefit of the precision of machine shop facilities. Igor --- Thom Mackris wrote: > Good point Stan. I had suggested chilling the > bearing stub in order to fit > it inside of the platter in the early stages of the > bearing/platter design. > The platter/bearing fit was ultimately determined to > be looser than a > "stress fit" as this tight a fit had negative > implications toward the > integrity of the platter. > > Dry ice would be good for cooling the bearing stub. > > Cheers, > Thom > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Stanley Goudge > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 6:41 AM > Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure > > > One thing I haven't heard yet would be to warm up > the oil and bearing in a > very low heat oven say 150 degrees and put the > spindle in the freezer for > an hour. Should open up the clearance and thin out > the oil of choice. > > Stan > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:32:01 -0700 From: Stanley Goudge, Stanley Goudge To: teres@aiko.com I was thinking you could heat the bearing assy w/oil and quickly install in the subchassis then retrieve the platter/spindle assy out of the freezer and install. Or you could use a heat gun on the bearing while it's installed, of course using heat shields to avoid heating the subchassis and just skip the spindle cooling because I am not sure what kind of fit between the platter and spindle. A press fit, might possibly make cooling the spindle to come loose. Stan At 08:52 AM 6/28/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Guys, > These are good ideas for facilitating the >assembly of the components. It might be difficult to >heat & cool the parts separately once they are >together for disassembly, though... > > Are you sure that you will *never* want or >need to change the oil (if only after break-in), or >perform any service, such as changing out/turning over >the Delrin thrust pad? Would you prefer to replace >the entire assembly if this became necessary? > Speaking of the Delrin pad, it is a bit of a >fly in the oilment. If the relief were to be drilled >out, the pad could act as a stop valve if the drilling >were not done precisely, as it must bypass the edge of >the pad to allow oil to flow past it. This is one >good reason why I would prefer to not try winging this >drilling by hand, without the benefit of the precision >of machine shop facilities. > > Igor > > >--- Thom Mackris wrote: >> Good point Stan. I had suggested chilling the >> bearing stub in order to fit >> it inside of the platter in the early stages of the >> bearing/platter design. >> The platter/bearing fit was ultimately determined to >> be looser than a >> "stress fit" as this tight a fit had negative >> implications toward the >> integrity of the platter. >> >> Dry ice would be good for cooling the bearing stub. >> >> Cheers, >> Thom >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Stanley Goudge >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 6:41 AM >> Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure >> >> >> One thing I haven't heard yet would be to warm up >> the oil and bearing in a >> very low heat oven say 150 degrees and put the >> spindle in the freezer for >> an hour. Should open up the clearance and thin out >> the oil of choice. >> >> Stan >> >> > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! >http://mail.yahoo.com/ > Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:49:29 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com And they are fine thoughts, but applicable to *a*-ssembling the units, the lesser dificulty in any case. My worries concern the * *dis*-assembly *. Unfortunately, applying, say, dry ice to the spindle for disassembly will not only congeal the oil, gluing the parts together while cold, but most likely cooling both spindle & bearing together, netting no help. Igor --- Stanley Goudge wrote: > I was thinking you could heat the bearing assy > w/oil and quickly install > in the subchassis then retrieve the platter/spindle > assy out of the freezer > and install. Or you could use a heat gun on the > bearing while it's installed, > of course using heat shields to avoid heating the > subchassis and just skip > the spindle cooling because I am not sure what kind > of fit between > the platter and spindle. A press fit, might possibly > make cooling the spindle > to come loose. > > Stan > > > At 08:52 AM 6/28/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >Guys, > > These are good ideas for facilitating the > >assembly of the components. It might be difficult > to > >heat & cool the parts separately once they are > >together for disassembly, though... > > > > Are you sure that you will *never* want > or > >need to change the oil (if only after break-in), or > >perform any service, such as changing out/turning > over > >the Delrin thrust pad? Would you prefer to replace > >the entire assembly if this became necessary? > > Speaking of the Delrin pad, it is a bit of > a > >fly in the oilment. If the relief were to be > drilled > >out, the pad could act as a stop valve if the > drilling > >were not done precisely, as it must bypass the edge > of > >the pad to allow oil to flow past it. This is one > >good reason why I would prefer to not try winging > this > >drilling by hand, without the benefit of the > precision > >of machine shop facilities. > > > > Igor > > > > > >--- Thom Mackris wrote: > >> Good point Stan. I had suggested chilling the > >> bearing stub in order to fit > >> it inside of the platter in the early stages of > the > >> bearing/platter design. > >> The platter/bearing fit was ultimately determined > to > >> be looser than a > >> "stress fit" as this tight a fit had negative > >> implications toward the > >> integrity of the platter. > >> > >> Dry ice would be good for cooling the bearing > stub. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Thom > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Stanley Goudge > >> To: > >> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 6:41 AM > >> Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling > Procedure > >> > >> > >> One thing I haven't heard yet would be to warm up > >> the oil and bearing in a > >> very low heat oven say 150 degrees and put the > >> spindle in the freezer for > >> an hour. Should open up the clearance and thin > out > >> the oil of choice. > >> > >> Stan > >> > >> > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from > anywhere! > >http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:04:09 -0700 From: Stanley Goudge, Stanley Goudge To: teres@aiko.com I don't know what I said that would make you think of cooling the spindle to disassemble. However you could disassemble by removing the platter/spindle/bearing in one piece, apply heat with a heat gun to the bearing while supporting the platter on 2 x 4's and let gravity do the rest. Stan At 11:46 AM 6/28/2000 -0700, you wrote: >And they are fine thoughts, but applicable to >*a*-ssembling the units, the lesser dificulty in any >case. My worries concern the * *dis*-assembly *. >Unfortunately, applying, say, dry ice to the spindle >for disassembly will not only congeal the oil, gluing >the parts together while cold, but most likely cooling > >both spindle & bearing together, netting no help. > > Igor > >--- Stanley Goudge wrote: >> I was thinking you could heat the bearing assy >> w/oil and quickly install >> in the subchassis then retrieve the platter/spindle >> assy out of the freezer >> and install. Or you could use a heat gun on the >> bearing while it's installed, >> of course using heat shields to avoid heating the >> subchassis and just skip >> the spindle cooling because I am not sure what kind >> of fit between >> the platter and spindle. A press fit, might possibly >> make cooling the spindle >> to come loose. >> >> Stan >> >> >> At 08:52 AM 6/28/2000 -0700, you wrote: >> >Guys, >> > These are good ideas for facilitating the >> >assembly of the components. It might be difficult >> to >> >heat & cool the parts separately once they are >> >together for disassembly, though... >> > >> > Are you sure that you will *never* want >> or >> >need to change the oil (if only after break-in), or >> >perform any service, such as changing out/turning >> over >> >the Delrin thrust pad? Would you prefer to replace >> >the entire assembly if this became necessary? >> > Speaking of the Delrin pad, it is a bit of >> a >> >fly in the oilment. If the relief were to be >> drilled >> >out, the pad could act as a stop valve if the >> drilling >> >were not done precisely, as it must bypass the edge >> of >> >the pad to allow oil to flow past it. This is one >> >good reason why I would prefer to not try winging >> this >> >drilling by hand, without the benefit of the >> precision >> >of machine shop facilities. >> > >> > Igor >> > >> > >> >--- Thom Mackris wrote: >> >> Good point Stan. I had suggested chilling the >> >> bearing stub in order to fit >> >> it inside of the platter in the early stages of >> the >> >> bearing/platter design. >> >> The platter/bearing fit was ultimately determined >> to >> >> be looser than a >> >> "stress fit" as this tight a fit had negative >> >> implications toward the >> >> integrity of the platter. >> >> >> >> Dry ice would be good for cooling the bearing >> stub. >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Thom >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Stanley Goudge >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 6:41 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling >> Procedure >> >> >> >> >> >> One thing I haven't heard yet would be to warm up >> >> the oil and bearing in a >> >> very low heat oven say 150 degrees and put the >> >> spindle in the freezer for >> >> an hour. Should open up the clearance and thin >> out >> >> the oil of choice. >> >> >> >> Stan >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >__________________________________________________ >> >Do You Yahoo!? >> >Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from >> anywhere! >> >http://mail.yahoo.com/ >> > >> > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! >http://mail.yahoo.com/ > Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:31:16 -0700 From: Alex Mitaru, Alex Mitaru To: teres@aiko.com At 02:57 PM 6/28/00 -0500, you wrote: > I don't know what I said that would make you think of cooling the > spindle to disassemble. >However you could disassemble by removing the platter/spindle/bearing in >one piece, apply heat >with a heat gun to the bearing while supporting the platter on 2 x 4's and let >gravity do the rest. gee, I don't know why we are debating all these rather complicated methods of assembly/disassembly when a small hole in the bottom of the well will make the job so incredible easy...let's face it, we are all into tweaks, we'll all want to fiddle with different oils/etc...why not make this job trivial instead of a PITB (ha, I invented a new acronyms...;-)) I don't think my yesterday message made it to the list, I got yesterday the platter and the bearing, and they are GORGEOUS....and the tolerances are really tight, to get oil into the bearing without a relief valve is not a trivial problem.... a small threaded hole in the bottom of the well with a nylon screw to plug it would make all the difference... cheers, alex ____________________________________________________________________ Alexandru Mitaru alexmi@omneon.com System Architect (503) 533-0621 ext 228 Omneon Video Networks (503) 533-5811 FAX Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:49:10 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 6/28/00 09:52, Igor Kuznetsoff at gorkuz@yahoo.com wrote: > Guys, > These are good ideas for facilitating the > assembly of the components. It might be difficult to > heat & cool the parts separately once they are > together for disassembly, though... > > Are you sure that you will *never* want or > need to change the oil (if only after break-in), or > perform any service, such as changing out/turning over > the Delrin thrust pad? Would you prefer to replace > the entire assembly if this became necessary? > Speaking of the Delrin pad, it is a bit of a > fly in the oilment. If the relief were to be drilled > out, the pad could act as a stop valve if the drilling > were not done precisely, as it must bypass the edge of > the pad to allow oil to flow past it. This is one > good reason why I would prefer to not try winging this > drilling by hand, without the benefit of the precision > of machine shop facilities. > > Igor > > Though I note your concerns, I trust Chris' and Bryce's judgement that this is not a major problem and I am comfortable with their hands on experimental verification rather than attempting to second guess from here. I'd like my bearing unpenetrated, if you will. If something can go wrong or leak, it will. . . Steve Z Subject: RE: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:16:27 -0700 From: Fritz Moore, Fritz Moore To: teres@aiko.com ----If Im in Northern CA should I have seen my platter yet. Did they go out Wednesday? Also I have been looking at some air bearings and I couldnt help but wonder. If we vent the well of the bearing and applied air through a port on the side of the bearing couldnt we use air as our fluid? 5-7 ten thousandths is even slightly tighter than the 8 ten thousandths Im seeing for small air bushings. 5-7 ten thousandths is the clearance in a wrist pin of a automotive piston. The wrist pins Ive rotated turn with a lot of drag even using light oils. Is our belt drive system going to transfer the amount of torque necessary to overcome the bearings viscous load? How tight are those things with 50 weight? Fritz Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:17:15 -0700 From: Stanley Goudge, Stanley Goudge To: teres@aiko.com No debate here, only discussing ways to less PITA , in case it's to late or whatever to drill holes. Stan At 01:23 PM 6/28/2000 -0700, you wrote: >At 02:57 PM 6/28/00 -0500, you wrote: >> I don't know what I said that would make you think of cooling the >> spindle to disassemble. >>However you could disassemble by removing the platter/spindle/bearing in >>one piece, apply heat >>with a heat gun to the bearing while supporting the platter on 2 x 4's and let >>gravity do the rest. > >gee, I don't know why we are debating all these rather complicated methods of >assembly/disassembly when a small hole in the bottom of the well will make the >job so incredible easy...let's face it, we are all into tweaks, we'll all >want to fiddle >with different oils/etc...why not make this job trivial instead of a PITB >(ha, I invented >a new acronyms...;-)) >I don't think my yesterday message made it to the list, I got yesterday the >platter >and the bearing, and they are GORGEOUS....and the tolerances are really tight, >to get oil into the bearing without a relief valve is not a trivial problem.... >a small threaded hole in the bottom of the well with a nylon screw to plug it >would make all the difference... >cheers, alex > >____________________________________________________________________ >Alexandru Mitaru alexmi@omneon.com >System Architect (503) 533-0621 ext 228 >Omneon Video Networks (503) 533-5811 FAX > Subject: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:46:03 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com My Teres bearing and platter arrived late yesterday. The fit and finish is outstanding! I spent about an hour futzing with assembling the bearing and have some real experience, vs theory to report. Here are my observations: - With no oil at all the air escapes slowly enough that it takes some pressure to seat the spindle. - If there is ANY oil, even a light film on the bearing surfaces a lot air gets trapped. With air trapped the shaft sticks out .5 to 1" farther than it should. Eventually the air should work out but it would probably take a long time. - It is extremely difficult to expel excess oil. Hand pressure does almost nothing. Even with a pipe clamp it was a very slow process. Grants idea of completely filling the bearing is sound but it would take forever. I was using 30 weight oil. A lighter oil would be somewhat easier but would still take some time. The excess oil will eventually work it's way out with just the weight of the platter, but it does take some time. - Disassembly is always a snap. Just tug a little on the shaft and it pops out. What worked for me was to put about 3/8" of oil in the bottom of the bearing. I pressed the shaft in and it stopped about 3/16" short of being fully seated. There was little if any air trapped since the bearing and shaft were wiped clean before assembly. Next I put a little oil in the trough at the top of the bearing so that the top journal would be lubricated. I placed the platter on the spindle and periodically over the next couple of hours gave the platter a spin. I was so entranced by this long awaited toy that I could not help repeatedly dropping what I was doing to spin the platter and just stare at it for a few minutes :) By bedtime the spindle was fully seated and there was a little oil that overflowed from the bearing. Heating and/or cooling as has been suggested would probably make the process easier but should not be required. Chris Subject: RE: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:46:51 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis, Pablo Roufogalis To: teres@aiko.com At 05:08 PM 6/28/00, you wrote: > 5-7 ten thousandths is the clearance in a wrist pin of a > automotive piston. >The wrist pins Ive rotated turn with a lot of drag even using light oils. >Is our belt drive system going to transfer the amount of torque necessary to >overcome the bearings viscous load? How tight are those things with 50 >weight? Hello to all. The required force to turn the platter will be much less than what a piston pin requires because of diameters. The platter's much larger (more leverage) and the bearing much smaller. I agree the oil must be as viscous as needed and no more. Would love to learn how many turns the platter does when made to turn freely. Regards, Pablo Roufogalis L. proufo@cantv.net (se dice proufo atencion de cantevepuntonet) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:51:00 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis, Pablo Roufogalis To: teres@aiko.com At 05:29 PM 6/28/00, you wrote: >- Disassembly is always a snap. Just tug a little on the shaft and it > pops out. It should give a very satisfying pop. And the thing with disassembling is that you are pulling against a small amount of vacuum. There's no need for the air to fill the cavity. Regards, Pablo Roufogalis L. proufo@cantv.net (se dice proufo atencion de cantevepuntonet) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:44:10 -0700 From: Daus Studenberg, Daus Studenberg To: teres@aiko.com Hi Terresists! I too am finally back after a camping trip. I was out in the North Georgia wilderness... haven't had such a fun outdoor experience since my scouting days! Anyway, I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of my platter as well. So anxious, that I ordered a copy of the Classics Records reissue of Stravinsky's "Firebird Suite". Anyway, I managed to catch up a little on the discussion of the bearing and the air pockets. I think that just playing around with it like Chris did over time should do a fine job. If you really want to speed up the process, I think putting the bearing in a vacuum chamber should do the job as all the air will be evacuated from the bearing. Just keep a clamp on it to prevent it from shooting out during evacuation. On a somewhat related note, I presume a lot of us will be using an RB-250, 300, etc... I was going to buy a Shure V15MXR-V but I have been told repeatedly to just avoid it because it was dull sounding. I want the BEST tracker I can find..along with having a great match with the Rega arm (i.e. no mechanical resonance problems with compliance etc.. ). I have had my eyes on the Audio Technica OC9-ML. Does anyone have a suggestion...based on their experiences...on a good budget (less than 300 bucks.) cartridge for a RB-250??? BTW, Grados prestige series are out of the question, I have a blue and do not like its poor shielding. the wood bodies are an option though.. Thanks...can't wait to build this! Daus ----- Original Message ----- From: Igor Kuznetsoff To: Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 11:35 PM Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure > Chris, > I am in agreement with you about forcing out > as much of the trapped air as possible. Had, in fact > thought just this through this way originally. > Fortunately, I believe that (reasonably small > quantities of) air will easily work themselves out in > short order, to be replaced by a very small amount of > the oil from the rebated upper section sump. Not that > I am in disagreement about using pressure to force the > air out - I have thought all along that that is the > best way to do that. The problem is not with the > *a*-ssembly of the bearing, but, as I have maintained > all along, the difficulties will be with the > *dis*-assembly of the unit. You will recall that I > had said that gravity, a little time, and the weight > of the platter (perhaps with a little assist) are all > on our side during insertion. The problem will come > when *removal* is needed. Gravity & time will *not* > be on our side then! Just imagine attempting to > s-s-s-s-s-l-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-w-w-w-w-w-w-l-y > extract the spindle by muscle power for a few hours or > more. Mechanical leverage would be extremely > inadvisable, as it could distort/damage the spindle > shoulder! The only safe way to remove the spindle will > be with minimal pressure spread out over time. And > how are we going to effect that easily & practically? > A pressure relief would *not* preclude > evacuating the air as you suggest, but, rather, just > make the operation somewhat neater, by eliminating the > need to meter such a precise amount of oil at the > start of the operation, and reduce the amount of > excess spilled over the top at completion. By closing > the relief at the beginning of the insertion, and > following your procedure as outlined until the oil > reaches the top, air will be evacuated. Then the > relief can be opened, and the excess oil released. > That's the slower way, but it can be performed with > the bearing installed in the chassis, so long as there > is access to the bottom of the bearing. Alternately, > both parts can be pre-oiled to protect them, oil > placed in the bearing, and the spindle inserted just > far enough so that no oil will spill when the entire > assembly is turned upside down. Then the relief can > be opened, and the spindle pushed in, *easily*, until > all the air is forced out, the spindle seats, & the > excess oil is pushed out. Just like a doctor would do > with a hypodermic, which is, essentially the same > shape, if you think about it, and for exactly the same > reasons - to remove all the air in the hypo. This way > would be much faster, but requires either that the > assembly not be mounted in the chassis, or that the > whole shebang could be turned upside down, which could > be impractical after the 'table becomes a working > entity. > Removal, OTOH, would be an entirely > different oil game with the relief. Simply open the > relief & pull the spindle out. In seconds. > Otherwise, I fear assembly may well, for all intents, > purposes & practicality, become essentially permanent. > > Igor > > > --- Chris Brady wrote: > > Igor Kuznetsoff wrote: > > > > > > Most impressive machine work. I look forward to > > the > > > superb freedom from FM modulation that this should > > > give. I am concerned about the difficulty of > > > disassembling the bearing in order to try > > different > > > oils, for instance, though. Perhaps the pressure > > > relief I advocated early on is still a good idea?? > > Is > > > it too late to add a small drill through from the > > > bottom of the bearing well to the drilled area > > meant > > > to accommodate a cone thread, at the bottom of the > > > bearing? The installed cone, or, alternately, a > > > threaded plug would easily then seal the relief. > > > I suppose I could take a run at it by hand, but > > this > > > would be very risky that way, with none of the > > nice > > > hold-down equipment a machine shop is equipped > > with. > > > I would hate to miss the target area at the edge > > of > > > the well recess, and maybe hit the area the ball > > sits > > > on! > > > > While a pressure relief hole would make assembly > > much easier > > it solves only part of the problem. I think that we > > want > > to insure that all of the cavities in the bearing > > are filled > > with oil. If we put in a pressure relief hole we are > > more likely > > to vent oil than air. So we end up with a lot of > > air in the bearing > > rather than the oil sump that was envisioned. > > > > I don't think that this will be a problem, it just > > will take a little > > extra time and care when assembling. Bryce had no > > difficulty > > assembling a bearing with 50 weight oil. > > > > Chris > > > > Chris > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] Cartridges Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:51:17 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Blair Hansen reports excellent results (agreeing with The Listener review) with his Dynavector 10 x 2 (list $325, but available through the web at ~ $275). A good compliance match for a Rega (unlike the Shure which matches up with light mass arms). It's supposed to be much quieter in the grooves than the Grados. I have yet to hear Blair's cartridge. You're also probably aware of the Denon DL-103 series of cartridges which have quite a following in the Joe List community. Art Dudly (The Listener) favorably compares this with his Lyra Lydian Beta. I'm not familiar with the Benz's in this price range, but am a big fan of their pricier cartridges. Perhaps you can hear one of those as well as Clearaudio's offering. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Daus Studenberg To: Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 12:50 AM Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Hi Terresists! I too am finally back after a camping trip. I was out in the North Georgia wilderness... haven't had such a fun outdoor experience since my scouting days! Anyway, I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of my platter as well. So anxious, that I ordered a copy of the Classics Records reissue of Stravinsky's "Firebird Suite". Anyway, I managed to catch up a little on the discussion of the bearing and the air pockets. I think that just playing around with it like Chris did over time should do a fine job. If you really want to speed up the process, I think putting the bearing in a vacuum chamber should do the job as all the air will be evacuated from the bearing. Just keep a clamp on it to prevent it from shooting out during evacuation. On a somewhat related note, I presume a lot of us will be using an RB-250, 300, etc... I was going to buy a Shure V15MXR-V but I have been told repeatedly to just avoid it because it was dull sounding. I want the BEST tracker I can find..along with having a great match with the Rega arm (i.e. no mechanical resonance problems with compliance etc.. ). I have had my eyes on the Audio Technica OC9-ML. Does anyone have a suggestion...based on their experiences...on a good budget (less than 300 bucks.) cartridge for a RB-250??? BTW, Grados prestige series are out of the question, I have a blue and do not like its poor shielding. the wood bodies are an option though.. Thanks...can't wait to build this! Daus ----- Original Message ----- From: Igor Kuznetsoff To: Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 11:35 PM Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure > Chris, > I am in agreement with you about forcing out > as much of the trapped air as possible. Had, in fact > thought just this through this way originally. > Fortunately, I believe that (reasonably small > quantities of) air will easily work themselves out in > short order, to be replaced by a very small amount of > the oil from the rebated upper section sump. Not that > I am in disagreement about using pressure to force the > air out - I have thought all along that that is the > best way to do that. The problem is not with the > *a*-ssembly of the bearing, but, as I have maintained > all along, the difficulties will be with the > *dis*-assembly of the unit. You will recall that I > had said that gravity, a little time, and the weight > of the platter (perhaps with a little assist) are all > on our side during insertion. The problem will come > when *removal* is needed. Gravity & time will *not* > be on our side then! Just imagine attempting to > s-s-s-s-s-l-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-w-w-w-w-w-w-l-y > extract the spindle by muscle power for a few hours or > more. Mechanical leverage would be extremely > inadvisable, as it could distort/damage the spindle > shoulder! The only safe way to remove the spindle will > be with minimal pressure spread out over time. And > how are we going to effect that easily & practically? > A pressure relief would *not* preclude > evacuating the air as you suggest, but, rather, just > make the operation somewhat neater, by eliminating the > need to meter such a precise amount of oil at the > start of the operation, and reduce the amount of > excess spilled over the top at completion. By closing > the relief at the beginning of the insertion, and > following your procedure as outlined until the oil > reaches the top, air will be evacuated. Then the > relief can be opened, and the excess oil released. > That's the slower way, but it can be performed with > the bearing installed in the chassis, so long as there > is access to the bottom of the bearing. Alternately, > both parts can be pre-oiled to protect them, oil > placed in the bearing, and the spindle inserted just > far enough so that no oil will spill when the entire > assembly is turned upside down. Then the relief can > be opened, and the spindle pushed in, *easily*, until > all the air is forced out, the spindle seats, & the > excess oil is pushed out. Just like a doctor would do > with a hypodermic, which is, essentially the same > shape, if you think about it, and for exactly the same > reasons - to remove all the air in the hypo. This way > would be much faster, but requires either that the > assembly not be mounted in the chassis, or that the > whole shebang could be turned upside down, which could > be impractical after the 'table becomes a working > entity. > Removal, OTOH, would be an entirely > different oil game with the relief. Simply open the > relief & pull the spindle out. In seconds. > Otherwise, I fear assembly may well, for all intents, > purposes & practicality, become essentially permanent. > > Igor > > > --- Chris Brady wrote: > > Igor Kuznetsoff wrote: > > > > > > Most impressive machine work. I look forward to > > the > > > superb freedom from FM modulation that this should > > > give. I am concerned about the difficulty of > > > disassembling the bearing in order to try > > different > > > oils, for instance, though. Perhaps the pressure > > > relief I advocated early on is still a good idea?? > > Is > > > it too late to add a small drill through from the > > > bottom of the bearing well to the drilled area > > meant > > > to accommodate a cone thread, at the bottom of the > > > bearing? The installed cone, or, alternately, a > > > threaded plug would easily then seal the relief. > > > I suppose I could take a run at it by hand, but > > this > > > would be very risky that way, with none of the > > nice > > > hold-down equipment a machine shop is equipped > > with. > > > I would hate to miss the target area at the edge > > of > > > the well recess, and maybe hit the area the ball > > sits > > > on! > > > > While a pressure relief hole would make assembly > > much easier > > it solves only part of the problem. I think that we > > want > > to insure that all of the cavities in the bearing > > are filled > > with oil. If we put in a pressure relief hole we are > > more likely > > to vent oil than air. So we end up with a lot of > > air in the bearing > > rather than the oil sump that was envisioned. > > > > I don't think that this will be a problem, it just > > will take a little > > extra time and care when assembling. Bryce had no > > difficulty > > assembling a bearing with 50 weight oil. > > > > Chris > > > > Chris > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling Procedure Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:28:43 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Stan, You didn't. I was running on to examine all the possibilities. I would rather wear alarmist egg on face than feel even dumber later for not having made the effort x the number of Teres owners. With some luck, all will be well without further effort. Chris's report is good news in that vein, and mockup & listen report even more encouraging. Igor --- Stanley Goudge wrote: > I don't know what I said that would make you think > of cooling the spindle to disassemble. > However you could disassemble by removing the > platter/spindle/bearing in one piece, apply heat > with a heat gun to the bearing while supporting the > platter on 2 x 4's and let > gravity do the rest. > > Stan > > > At 11:46 AM 6/28/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >And they are fine thoughts, but applicable to > >*a*-ssembling the units, the lesser dificulty in > any > >case. My worries concern the * *dis*-assembly *. > >Unfortunately, applying, say, dry ice to the > spindle > >for disassembly will not only congeal the oil, > gluing > >the parts together while cold, but most likely > cooling > > > >both spindle & bearing together, netting no help. > > > > Igor > > > >--- Stanley Goudge wrote: > >> I was thinking you could heat the bearing assy > >> w/oil and quickly install > >> in the subchassis then retrieve the > platter/spindle > >> assy out of the freezer > >> and install. Or you could use a heat gun on the > >> bearing while it's installed, > >> of course using heat shields to avoid heating the > >> subchassis and just skip > >> the spindle cooling because I am not sure what > kind > >> of fit between > >> the platter and spindle. A press fit, might > possibly > >> make cooling the spindle > >> to come loose. > >> > >> Stan > >> > >> > >> At 08:52 AM 6/28/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >> >Guys, > >> > These are good ideas for facilitating the > >> >assembly of the components. It might be > difficult > >> to > >> >heat & cool the parts separately once they are > >> >together for disassembly, though... > >> > > >> > Are you sure that you will *never* > want > >> or > >> >need to change the oil (if only after break-in), > or > >> >perform any service, such as changing > out/turning > >> over > >> >the Delrin thrust pad? Would you prefer to > replace > >> >the entire assembly if this became necessary? > >> > Speaking of the Delrin pad, it is a bit > of > >> a > >> >fly in the oilment. If the relief were to be > >> drilled > >> >out, the pad could act as a stop valve if the > >> drilling > >> >were not done precisely, as it must bypass the > edge > >> of > >> >the pad to allow oil to flow past it. This is > one > >> >good reason why I would prefer to not try > winging > >> this > >> >drilling by hand, without the benefit of the > >> precision > >> >of machine shop facilities. > >> > > >> > Igor > >> > > >> > > >> >--- Thom Mackris > wrote: > >> >> Good point Stan. I had suggested chilling the > >> >> bearing stub in order to fit > >> >> it inside of the platter in the early stages > of > >> the > >> >> bearing/platter design. > >> >> The platter/bearing fit was ultimately > determined > >> to > >> >> be looser than a > >> >> "stress fit" as this tight a fit had negative > >> >> implications toward the > >> >> integrity of the platter. > >> >> > >> >> Dry ice would be good for cooling the bearing > >> stub. > >> >> > >> >> Cheers, > >> >> Thom > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: Stanley Goudge > >> >> To: > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 6:41 AM > >> >> Subject: Re: [teres] Teres Bearing Filling > >> Procedure > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> One thing I haven't heard yet would be to warm > up > >> >> the oil and bearing in a > >> >> very low heat oven say 150 degrees and put the > >> >> spindle in the freezer for > >> >> an hour. Should open up the clearance and thin > >> out > >> >> the oil of choice. > >> >> > >> >> Stan > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > >__________________________________________________ > >> >Do You Yahoo!? > >> >Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from > >> anywhere! > >> >http://mail.yahoo.com/ > >> > > >> > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from > anywhere! > >http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:46:41 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com OK, I may be thinking about using materials on hand for belts, but I really have to get serious about oil (that is as soon as all of that MDF in the garage turns into a turntable stand Chris is ahead of me as usual). So ... doing a search in my Teres archive for "oil", I found over 300 e-mails! I think we got serious about this when Pablo stepped on the scene in April. Here's a summary of that April thread: Moly, Teflon and colloidal graphite graphite (*not* sparkling "dry" graphite) are o.k. but most likely are serious overkill since our bearing will never have metal to metal contact. Some concern came up about graphite having a potential for galvanic corrosion at least if air and moisture are present. Rather than research the reality of this being possible in an oil bath, along with the ready accessibility and chemical inertness of teflon ("Tetra Lube" is available in bicycle and gun shops), it seems as if we can discount graphite and opt for teflon if we want to add something. Somewhere, I remember reading a comment to avoid detergent motor oils. Additionally, I remember comments to the effect that synthetic motor oils are ok but overkill. This might be an opportunity to start using synthetic oil in my car, saving a couple of ounces (6 lifetimes' supply) for Teres experimentation. BTW, Chris' first try is 30 weight, non-detergent motor oil. Cheers, Thom Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 02:58:23 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com I, too, think that this is our most crucial topic at the moment. What with the pressure relief not having been incorporated into the design, experimenting with different oils is not going to be very easy, alas. This means we have to make a pretty darn good choice almost blindly to commit to, because comparisons would take some awfully serious fuss to change out. Complicating this is the fact that our bearing tolerance is tighter than anything comparable on the market, so something like viscosity is really going to be a crapshoot without the chance to change it easily, since we cannot therefore easily reference it to other such systems. Perhaps the first to build a chassis, of those that felt the relief was unnecessary, should volunteer to do a few comparisons.....Does Bryce have any recommendations? For a span of viscosities, if not a specific preference? Igor --- Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella wrote: > OK, I may be thinking about using materials on hand > for belts, but I really > have to get serious about oil (that is as soon as > all of that MDF in the > garage turns into a turntable stand Chris is > ahead of me as usual). > > So ... doing a search in my Teres archive for "oil", > I found over 300 > e-mails! I think we got serious about this when > Pablo stepped on the scene > in April. > > Here's a summary of that April thread: > > Moly, Teflon and colloidal graphite graphite (*not* > sparkling "dry" > graphite) are o.k. but most likely are serious > overkill since our bearing > will never have metal to metal contact. > > Some concern came up about graphite having a > potential for galvanic > corrosion at least if air and moisture are present. > Rather than research > the reality of this being possible in an oil bath, > along with the ready > accessibility and chemical inertness of teflon > ("Tetra Lube" is available in > bicycle and gun shops), it seems as if we can > discount graphite and opt for > teflon if we want to add something. > > Somewhere, I remember reading a comment to avoid > detergent motor oils. > Additionally, I remember comments to the effect that > synthetic motor oils > are ok but overkill. > > This might be an opportunity to start using > synthetic oil in my car, saving > a couple of ounces (6 lifetimes' supply) for Teres > experimentation. BTW, > Chris' first try is 30 weight, non-detergent motor > oil. > > Cheers, > Thom > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 05:54:57 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis, Pablo Roufogalis To: teres@aiko.com At 04:57 AM 7/9/00, you wrote: >I, too, think that this is our most crucial topic at >the moment. Hello to all. At this point my guess is that the best oil should be a light one, such as an hydraulic oil ISO 22 grade. My belief is that high turning resistance is not for the better and the degree of polishing is so high there is little chance of metal-to-metal contact. Detergent additives and the barrage of chemicals in motor oils are unneeded. Those wanting a higher viscosity oil should look for an equivalent hydraulic oil. Additives are probably unneeded but wouldn't hurt to use a Teflon-enhanced formulation. Oils with colloidal graphite are also a choice but they seem difficult to obtain. Query: How many turns does your platter do freely when turned by hand, Chis? Pablo Roufogalis L. proufo@cantv.net (se dice proufo atencion de cantevepuntonet) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 10:10:29 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Pablo, That is an item that *has* been discussed quite a bit already, early on. While viscous drag may be a minor *plus* in such a high mass system with so high quality a motor, it is, nevertheless a *plus*, applied in proper scale, because it swamps the natural variations in stylus drag, reducing self-modulation of speed. The issue is *how much* is optimum, not whether it is. As no one in the world (other than the Brady's & Alex M.) has so much as seen one of our bearings turn, much less perform with different oils yet, all guesses are exactly that, *guesses*. What is really needed is a test, in a working/playing, not simply turning, chassis. How many turns the platter can make after there is no impulse is *not* a useful or definitive test of any kind for us, only a besides-the-point curiousity. Only an ears-on test with a few viscosities will pin down what we *really* need to know! We can attempt all the guesses we can spare the time for, but this is what's needed to get useful information. *Then* it would be nice to pin down a few real part numbers for oils that we can trust the compositions of, because changing a bad choice of oils isn't going to be conveniently easy. I do agree with you about avoiding detergents & other unnecessary additives. I wonder what high precision gyros are lubed with, even if I suspect that viscous drag would *not* be wanted in that app... Igor --- Pablo Roufogalis wrote: > At 04:57 AM 7/9/00, you wrote: > >I, too, think that this is our most crucial topic > at > >the moment. > > Hello to all. > > At this point my guess is that the best oil should > be a light one, such as > an hydraulic oil ISO 22 grade. My belief is that > high turning resistance is > not for the better and the degree of polishing is so > high there is little > chance of metal-to-metal contact. > > Detergent additives and the barrage of chemicals in > motor oils are > unneeded. Those wanting a higher viscosity oil > should look for an > equivalent hydraulic oil. > > Additives are probably unneeded but wouldn't hurt to > use a Teflon-enhanced > formulation. Oils with colloidal graphite are also a > choice but they seem > difficult to obtain. > > Query: How many turns does your platter do freely > when turned by hand, Chis? > > Pablo Roufogalis L. > proufo@cantv.net > (se dice proufo atencion de cantevepuntonet) > ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite > http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm > Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 12:02:38 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis, Pablo Roufogalis To: teres@aiko.com At 12:10 PM 7/9/00, you wrote: >How many turns the platter can make after >there is no impulse is *not* a useful or definitive >test of any kind for us, only a besides-the-point >curiousity. Only an ears-on test with a few >viscosities will pin down what we *really* need to >know! Hey Igor! Calm down! This is supposed to be fun, right? None of us here is an expert in turnatable manufacturing. What we have is what was once called a Japanese quality circle, where non-experts would develop a product using opinions and guesses from everybody. I am as most of us here, waiting to be able to have Teres in our hands to do some if not lots of tests until we are satisfied with the results. Until then, I don't feel that any guesses or comments off the top of our heads are unwelcome. And I'm sorry if my "besides the point" curiosity bothers you. Feel free to trash my messages before reading them, as you will find lots of it it them. Regards, Pablo Roufogalis L. proufo@cantv.net (se dice proufo atencion de cantevepuntonet) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:36:44 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com > I wonder what high precision gyros are > lubed with, even if I suspect that viscous drag would > *not* be wanted in that app... > > Igor > For quite some time, pure mineral oil was used in the less sophisticated Navy gyros. Which were still plenty precise and complex from a DIY perspective. When some of the very highly sophisticated and wickedly expensive gyros put on nuclear submarines came with "proprietary" oils available only from the manufacturer at -- you guessed it -- stratospheric prices, the Navy analyzed some and found them to be -- right again! -- pure mineral oil. Don't know the viscosities, but it looked and smelt and poured just like the mineral oil available at the pharmacy. I see the oil debate rapidly polarizing into "drag is good" and "drag is bad" camps. I agree with Igor that it is really a guess right now. I can think of compelling arguments either way. The proof will be in the listening. Given Chris' report on the relative easy of removing the spindle from the bearing, I don't see the difficulty of removing the belt, pulling the platter and spindle, swabbing out the well and wiping the shaft of the spindle (a bit of degreaser or freon and absorbant rags or swabs will do it) and trying a different oil. 3/4" is sure easier to get to the bottom of and clean thoroughly than my pencil-thin Oracle bearing well. Pressure-reliefs still have the problem of providing access; and the mating surfaces ought to be cleaned of all the old lube anyway if trials of various lubricants are not to be (literally) contaminated. Best regards, Steve Z near Libby, MT Subject: RE: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:52:35 -0700 From: Fritz Moore, Fritz Moore To: teres@aiko.com Ive read more than one "authoritative" reference which stated that mineral oil or bean oil lubricates quite well, often as good or better than synthetics. However Ive also read that the non synthetics dont have the thermal or chemical stability of a synthetic. It seems, that since heat and lubrication arent big issues in our case, that dampening might be the parameter to obsess over. Are records with frequency sweeps available? Couldnt we play one of these records and look at the phono output for distortions or resonance. We could then change oils until we found the cleanest output. Even excel will do Fourier analysis now, we could probably identify characteristic signals in the phono output and work to eliminate them one by one. Or find the oil that eliminates the most noise in the audible spectrum. Or realize it makes no difference? This actually seems like a good method of tuning the whole suspension and coming up with something that is critically damped and excites only in a inaudable area of the frquency spectrum. Fritz -----Original Message----- From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of Steve Zettel Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2000 12:35 PM To: teres@aiko.com Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux > I wonder what high precision gyros are > lubed with, even if I suspect that viscous drag would > *not* be wanted in that app... > > Igor > For quite some time, pure mineral oil was used in the less sophisticated Navy gyros. Which were still plenty precise and complex from a DIY perspective. When some of the very highly sophisticated and wickedly expensive gyros put on nuclear submarines came with "proprietary" oils available only from the manufacturer at -- you guessed it -- stratospheric prices, the Navy analyzed some and found them to be -- right again! -- pure mineral oil. Don't know the viscosities, but it looked and smelt and poured just like the mineral oil available at the pharmacy. I see the oil debate rapidly polarizing into "drag is good" and "drag is bad" camps. I agree with Igor that it is really a guess right now. I can think of compelling arguments either way. The proof will be in the listening. Given Chris' report on the relative easy of removing the spindle from the bearing, I don't see the difficulty of removing the belt, pulling the platter and spindle, swabbing out the well and wiping the shaft of the spindle (a bit of degreaser or freon and absorbant rags or swabs will do it) and trying a different oil. 3/4" is sure easier to get to the bottom of and clean thoroughly than my pencil-thin Oracle bearing well. Pressure-reliefs still have the problem of providing access; and the mating surfaces ought to be cleaned of all the old lube anyway if trials of various lubricants are not to be (literally) contaminated. Best regards, Steve Z near Libby, MT Subject: RE: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:10:42 -0700 From: Jon Lane, Jon Lane To: teres@aiko.com Now this is smart... JL > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com > [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Fritz Moore > Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2000 3:46 PM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: RE: [teres] Oil Redux > > > Ive read more than one "authoritative" reference > which stated that mineral > oil or bean oil lubricates quite well, often as > good or better than > synthetics. However Ive also read that the non > synthetics dont have the > thermal or chemical stability of a synthetic. > It seems, that since heat and lubrication > arent big issues in our case, > that dampening might be the parameter to obsess > over. Are records with > frequency sweeps available? Couldnt we play one > of these records and look > at the phono output for distortions or resonance. > We could then change oils > until we found the cleanest output. Even excel > will do Fourier analysis > now, we could probably identify characteristic > signals in the phono output > and work to eliminate them one by one. Or find > the oil that eliminates the > most noise in the audible spectrum. Or realize > it makes no difference? > This actually seems like a good method of tuning > the whole suspension and > coming up with something that is critically > damped and excites only in a > inaudable area of the frquency spectrum. > > > Fritz Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:15:42 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com >From Fritz Moore: >Ive read more than one "authoritative" reference >which stated that mineral oil or bean oil lubricates >quite well, often as good or better than >synthetics. However Ive also read that the non >synthetics dont have the >thermal or chemical stability of a synthetic. Interesting. This makes two positive mentions of mineral oil. Pablo, could that be what the jack oil you've mentioned is? Who might carry a selection of mineral oil viscosities? And it is good that Chris mentions that it is easy to remove the spindle, but, unfortunately he also mentioned that installing it isn't. Good point about completely cleaning the surfaces of previous oils, this would be crucial for accurate test results. Igor --- Steve Zettel wrote: > > I wonder what high precision gyros are > > lubed with, even if I suspect that viscous drag > would > > *not* be wanted in that app... > > > > Igor > > > For quite some time, pure mineral oil was used in > the less sophisticated > Navy gyros. Which were still plenty precise and > complex from a DIY > perspective. When some of the very highly > sophisticated and wickedly > expensive gyros put on nuclear submarines came with > "proprietary" oils > available only from the manufacturer at -- you > guessed it -- stratospheric > prices, the Navy analyzed some and found them to be > -- right again! -- pure > mineral oil. > > Don't know the viscosities, but it looked and smelt > and poured just like the > mineral oil available at the pharmacy. > > I see the oil debate rapidly polarizing into "drag > is good" and "drag is > bad" camps. I agree with Igor that it is really a > guess right now. I can > think of compelling arguments either way. The proof > will be in the > listening. > > Given Chris' report on the relative easy of removing > the spindle from the > bearing, I don't see the difficulty of removing the > belt, pulling the > platter and spindle, swabbing out the well and > wiping the shaft of the > spindle (a bit of degreaser or freon and absorbant > rags or swabs will do it) > and trying a different oil. 3/4" is sure easier to > get to the bottom of and > clean thoroughly than my pencil-thin Oracle bearing > well. > > Pressure-reliefs still have the problem of providing > access; and the mating > surfaces ought to be cleaned of all the old lube > anyway if trials of various > lubricants are not to be (literally) contaminated. > > Best regards, > > Steve Z > near Libby, MT > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:48:10 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com There may be more to the oil thing than drag being good or bad. If we consider the combination of the motor, pod, belt, platter, & bearing as a dynamic system (in the spinning sense), we realize that it, like other dynamic systems, is susceptible to harmonics. The bearing's oil interface is, then, literally the damper for it. This would mean that what turns out to be significant about the viscosity may not be whether there is more or less of it, but how a specific viscosity tunes / interfaces with the other parameters. This may be tricky to pin down, because this may vary with belt tension & type, and these are changeable. Igor --- Steve Zettel wrote: > For quite some time, pure mineral oil was used in > the less sophisticated > Navy gyros. Which were still plenty precise and > complex from a DIY > perspective. When some of the very highly > sophisticated and wickedly > expensive gyros put on nuclear submarines came with > "proprietary" oils > available only from the manufacturer at -- you > guessed it -- stratospheric > prices, the Navy analyzed some and found them to be > -- right again! -- pure > mineral oil. > > Don't know the viscosities, but it looked and smelt > and poured just like the > mineral oil available at the pharmacy. > > I see the oil debate rapidly polarizing into "drag > is good" and "drag is > bad" camps. I agree with Igor that it is really a > guess right now. I can > think of compelling arguments either way. The proof > will be in the > listening. > > Given Chris' report on the relative easy of removing > the spindle from the > bearing, I don't see the difficulty of removing the > belt, pulling the > platter and spindle, swabbing out the well and > wiping the shaft of the > spindle (a bit of degreaser or freon and absorbant > rags or swabs will do it) > and trying a different oil. 3/4" is sure easier to > get to the bottom of and > clean thoroughly than my pencil-thin Oracle bearing > well. > > Pressure-reliefs still have the problem of providing > access; and the mating > surfaces ought to be cleaned of all the old lube > anyway if trials of various > lubricants are not to be (literally) contaminated. > > Best regards, > > Steve Z > near Libby, MT > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:50:31 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com --- Pablo Roufogalis wrote: > At 12:10 PM 7/9/00, you wrote: > >How many turns the platter can make after > >there is no impulse is *not* a useful or definitive > >test of any kind for us, only a besides-the-point > >curiousity. Only an ears-on test with a few > >viscosities will pin down what we *really* need to > >know! > > Hey Igor! > Calm down! > This is supposed to be fun, right? Relax, Pablo, and speculate away. What made you think that is unwelcome? Is there any reason not to state basics of a situation to keep things in perspective while speculating? Igor __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:04:54 -0700 From: PEARL Cust Serv, PEARL Cust Serv To: teres@aiko.com Hi Fritz: > I've read more than one "authoritative" reference which stated that mineral > oil or bean oil lubricates quite well, often as good or better than > synthetics. However I've also read that the non synthetics dont have the > thermal or chemical stability of a synthetic. > It seems, that since heat and lubrication arent big issues in our case, > that dampening might be the parameter to obsess over. Are records with > frequency sweeps available? Couldnt we play one of these records and look > at the phono output for distortions or resonance. We could then change oils > until we found the cleanest output. Even excel will do Fourier analysis > now, we could probably identify characteristic signals in the phono output > and work to eliminate them one by one. Or find the oil that eliminates the > most noise in the audible spectrum. Or realize it makes no difference? > This actually seems like a good method of tuning the whole suspension and > coming up with something that is critically damped and excites only in a > inaudable area of the frquency spectrum. > Fritz With respect to reducing "oil-noise" within the bearing: you will likely find that cryogenic treatment of the bearing and spindle will yield significant improvements. This *will* reduce any shear-induced turbulence within the oil-film due to the effects of the deep chill . . . It sounds like hocus pocus but it isn't, such treatment is well known is the race car field and results in substantial across-the-board increases in torque and horsepower . . Bill - PEARL, Inc. Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 04:02:35 -0700 From: Gary Bronner, Gary Bronner To: teres@aiko.com Bill, For those of us with access to liquid nitrogen, should we be giving our bearings and spindles a quick dip or is it more complicated than that? Thanks for any tips you can share. ---Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: PEARL Cust Serv To: Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 2:05 AM Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux > > Fritz > > With respect to reducing "oil-noise" within the bearing: you will likely > find that cryogenic treatment of the bearing and spindle will yield > significant improvements. > This *will* reduce any shear-induced turbulence within the oil-film due > to the effects of the deep chill . . . It sounds like hocus pocus but it > isn't, such treatment is well known is the race car field and results in > substantial across-the-board increases in torque and horsepower . . > > Bill - PEARL, Inc. > Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 05:00:08 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com Hi, Bill > > With respect to reducing "oil-noise" within the bearing: you will likely > find that cryogenic treatment of the bearing and spindle will yield > significant improvements. > This *will* reduce any shear-induced turbulence within the oil-film due > to the effects of the deep chill . . . It sounds like hocus pocus but it > isn't, such treatment is well known is the race car field and results in > substantial across-the-board increases in torque and horsepower . . > > Bill - PEARL, Inc. > The effects of cryogenic treatment are indeed real, but I am unaware of the mechanism at work that would reduce shear-induced turbulence in our application. Could you enlighten me? As I recall from my somewhat cursory readings of cryogenic treatment of snowmobile engines, the increase in torque and horsepower came, not from the treatment, but from the greater dimensional stability and reduction in internal stresses, which allowed the builder to run more horses (leaner > higher temp, and higher rpm) before blowing up the engine. I am not sure how this translates to our low temp, stable rpm (hopefully!) application. Steve Z near Libby, MT In snowmobile country. Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 06:37:26 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis, Pablo Roufogalis To: teres@aiko.com At 01:14 AM 7/10/00, you wrote: >Interesting. This makes two positive mentions of >mineral oil. Pablo, could that be what the jack oil >you've mentioned is? Who might carry a selection of >mineral oil viscosities? And it is good that Chris >mentions that it is easy to remove the spindle, but, >unfortunately he also mentioned that installing it >isn't. Good point about completely cleaning the >surfaces of previous oils, this would be crucial for >accurate test results. Hello to all. Oils of all kind typically have mineral oils (petroleum destillates) and chemical additives. Synthetic oils are made of chemical compounds that act both as oil and as chemicals. Synths are made mostly for specific applications, non-flammable fluids, high temperature applications and the such. Lubes like Mobil 1 are of very high quality and high price but their effectiveness is similar to several changes of conventional oils. For our application synthetics are not needed and probably not recommended. For applications such as a bearing, the typical formulation is a mineral oil with a small amount of rust and oxidation, and antiwear additives. These are used frequenty in hydraulic systems. The Exxon brand for them is Nuto H. Nuto H of very low viscosities are available, from ISO 5 up. Another option is one with no antiwear additives. They are called industrial oils. The Exxon brand for then is Teresso. The minimum viscosity for them is ISO 32 (AFAIK). Both should be readily available anywhere, but the minimum container is probably a gallon or even more. They are very cheap though. An industrial provider (brick and mortar) might be willing to give you samples if you ask kindly enough. Equivalents from other producers do exist and sellers are able to tell you which ones are the same as the Exxon ones above. I will use a local equivalent of Nuto H ISO 22 grade when the time comes to it. Lower viscosities are not readily available here in the tropics. If I can find a good enough reason I might test lower viscosities later. CAUTION FOR TESTERS: The mix of detergent engine oils (all crankase oils) with the lubricants above might create large aggregates of chemicals which are undesired. Detergentes and most of the chemicals in crancase oils are totally unneeded for our application. Best regards, Pablo Roufogalis L. proufo@cantv.net (se dice proufo atencion de cantevepuntonet) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:41:32 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Agreed, Igor. Verdier also claims that even with his high mass platter (35 lbs?) that viscuous drag helps to swamp such things as varying stylus drag, etc. >From Chris' reports, changing oil seems as if it might take 20 or 30 minutes more than it would with inferior production bearings ... not such a big deal for most of us who will probably live with an oil change for a few weeks or so, IMHO. While I'm at it (speaking from ignorance ) I'd guess that a relatively thin oil will be the equivalent of a fairly thick oil in a lesser bearing. I'll probably start with fairly thin stuff. BTW, Chris' bearing with 30 weight, spins quite freely. I did not remove the belt, so this free spinning is also a reflection of the motor. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Igor Kuznetsoff To: Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2000 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux Pablo, That is an item that *has* been discussed quite a bit already, early on. While viscous drag may be a minor *plus* in such a high mass system with so high quality a motor, it is, nevertheless a *plus*, applied in proper scale, because it swamps the natural variations in stylus drag, reducing self-modulation of speed. The issue is *how much* is optimum, not whether it is. As no one in the world (other than the Brady's & Alex M.) has so much as seen one of our bearings turn, much less perform with different oils yet, all guesses are exactly that, *guesses*. What is really needed is a test, in a working/playing, not simply turning, chassis. How many turns the platter can make after there is no impulse is *not* a useful or definitive test of any kind for us, only a besides-the-point curiousity. Only an ears-on test with a few viscosities will pin down what we *really* need to know! We can attempt all the guesses we can spare the time for, but this is what's needed to get useful information. *Then* it would be nice to pin down a few real part numbers for oils that we can trust the compositions of, because changing a bad choice of oils isn't going to be conveniently easy. I do agree with you about avoiding detergents & other unnecessary additives. I wonder what high precision gyros are lubed with, even if I suspect that viscous drag would *not* be wanted in that app... Igor --- Pablo Roufogalis wrote: > At 04:57 AM 7/9/00, you wrote: > >I, too, think that this is our most crucial topic > at > >the moment. > > Hello to all. > > At this point my guess is that the best oil should > be a light one, such as > an hydraulic oil ISO 22 grade. My belief is that > high turning resistance is > not for the better and the degree of polishing is so > high there is little > chance of metal-to-metal contact. > > Detergent additives and the barrage of chemicals in > motor oils are > unneeded. Those wanting a higher viscosity oil > should look for an > equivalent hydraulic oil. > > Additives are probably unneeded but wouldn't hurt to > use a Teflon-enhanced > formulation. Oils with colloidal graphite are also a > choice but they seem > difficult to obtain. > > Query: How many turns does your platter do freely > when turned by hand, Chis? > > Pablo Roufogalis L. > proufo@cantv.net > (se dice proufo atencion de cantevepuntonet) > ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite > http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm > Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:01:56 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Good info. Thank you, Pablo. Is the ISO conventional grading equivalent to the "W" (weight) designation that we are used to seeing here? (Is it used at all outside the U.S.A.?) That is, is, say, the ISO 22 you mention equivalent to 22W, or is this an improper assumption? Igor --- Pablo Roufogalis wrote: > At 01:14 AM 7/10/00, you wrote: > >Interesting. This makes two positive mentions of > >mineral oil. Pablo, could that be what the jack > oil > >you've mentioned is? Who might carry a selection > of > >mineral oil viscosities? And it is good that Chris > >mentions that it is easy to remove the spindle, > but, > >unfortunately he also mentioned that installing it > >isn't. Good point about completely cleaning the > >surfaces of previous oils, this would be crucial > for > >accurate test results. > > Hello to all. > > Oils of all kind typically have mineral oils > (petroleum destillates) and > chemical additives. Synthetic oils are made of > chemical compounds that act > both as oil and as chemicals. > > Synths are made mostly for specific applications, > non-flammable fluids, > high temperature applications and the such. Lubes > like Mobil 1 are of very > high quality and high price but their effectiveness > is similar to several > changes of conventional oils. For our application > synthetics are not needed > and probably not recommended. > > For applications such as a bearing, the typical > formulation is a mineral > oil with a small amount of rust and oxidation, and > antiwear additives. > These are used frequenty in hydraulic systems. The > Exxon brand for them is > Nuto H. Nuto H of very low viscosities are > available, from ISO 5 up. > > Another option is one with no antiwear additives. > They are called > industrial oils. The Exxon brand for then is > Teresso. The minimum viscosity > for them is ISO 32 (AFAIK). > > Both should be readily available anywhere, but the > minimum container is > probably a gallon or even more. They are very cheap > though. An industrial > provider (brick and mortar) might be willing to give > you samples if you ask > kindly enough. Equivalents from other producers do > exist and sellers are > able to tell you which ones are the same as the > Exxon ones above. > > I will use a local equivalent of Nuto H ISO 22 grade > when the time comes to > it. Lower viscosities are not readily available here > in the tropics. If I > can find a good enough reason I might test lower > viscosities later. > > CAUTION FOR TESTERS: The mix of detergent engine > oils (all crankase oils) > with the lubricants above might create large > aggregates of chemicals which > are undesired. > > Detergentes and most of the chemicals in crancase > oils are totally unneeded > for our application. > > Best regards, > > Pablo Roufogalis L. > proufo@cantv.net > (se dice proufo atencion de cantevepuntonet) > ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite > http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm > Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] Oil Redux Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:11:04 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis, Pablo Roufogalis To: teres@aiko.com At 12:01 PM 7/10/00, you wrote: >Good info. Thank you, Pablo. Is the ISO conventional >grading equivalent to the "W" (weight) designation >that we are used to seeing here? (Is it used at all >outside the U.S.A.?) That is, is, say, the ISO 22 >you mention equivalent to 22W, or is this an improper >assumption? Hello Igor and everybody, ISO is used for industrial oils. SAE is for motor oils. W means Winter. SAE number for viscosity are as follows: 0W 5W 10W 20W 25W 20 30 40 50 Crankcase oils typically meet one Winter grade and one non-W grade as in SAE 10W-30. They are called multigrades when they do so and are meant to be all-season and provide other advantages. ISO starts at 2 and ends at 1500. Each number is 50% larger than the one before it (2,3,5,7,10,15..) My first choice, ISO 22 might be similar to a typical 10W monograde (probably hard to find even in Alaska). It is difficult to establish equivalences as measurements are made at different temperatures and other components in the formulation affect the viscosity vs. temperature curve radically. Translation: an additional reason for using a lubricant that is ISO graded. It is very common to assume W stands for weight, even for people dealing with engines. These standards are used all over the world, even in North Korea and Cuba, AFAIK. Regards, Pablo Roufogalis L. proufo@cantv.net (se dice proufo atencion de cantevepuntonet) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: [teres] Viscosity equivalences Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:57:22 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis, Pablo Roufogalis To: teres@aiko.com Hello to all. Igor requested this: ISO 22 is roughly similar to SAE 5W ISO 32 is roughly similar to SAE 10W ISO 46/68 IRST SAE 20 ISO 100 IRST SAE 30 ISO 150 IRST SAE 40 ISO 220 IRST SAE 50 The above equivalences assume the SAE oils are single grades. Regards Pablo Roufogalis L. proufo@cantv.net (se dice proufo atencion de cantevepuntonet) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: Re: [teres] Viscosity equivalences Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:36:17 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Thanks, Pablo. Igor --- Pablo Roufogalis wrote: > Hello to all. > > Igor requested this: > > ISO 22 is roughly similar to SAE 5W > ISO 32 is roughly similar to SAE 10W > ISO 46/68 IRST SAE 20 > ISO 100 IRST SAE 30 > ISO 150 IRST SAE 40 > ISO 220 IRST SAE 50 > > The above equivalences assume the SAE oils are > single grades. > > Regards > > Pablo Roufogalis L. > proufo@cantv.net > (se dice proufo atencion de cantevepuntonet) > ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite > http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm > Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: [teres] A little Vitamin E for your Teres? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:00:46 -0700 From: David Suess, David Suess To: teres@aiko.com This goes back to the recent discussion on oil for the Teres bearing, and specifically the mineral oil thread. I have found some drugstore mineral oil that I had purchased a number of years ago to condition a butcher block cutting board. There's a lot left, more than enough for several lifetimes of teres use. My questions are... Does this stuff go bad? It's been stored underneath the kitchen sink. It doesn't look bad, or even smell bad. And according to the label there are some additives, specifically some vitamin E (this stuff was intended for internal consumption to relieve constipation, eeeewww!). Is this stuff OK for lubricating the Teres bearing? Or should I be looking for some "purer" (and/or newer) stuff? On the construction of my table... I have all the stuff I need to begin building this thing. It will be pretty much a knockoff of Chris' design, only I'll be using Corian instead of aluminum. I've even loaded some film into the Nikon to get pics of the whole process. Did I hear Chris say he would be willing to put some of this stuff on his web page? - david Subject: Re: [teres] Slippery Subject Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:55:57 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis, Pablo Roufogalis To: teres@aiko.com At 07:11 PM 8/14/00, you wrote: >I forgot to mention, but Chris recently tried power steering fluid. I'm >guessing that it's similar to the hydrolic jack oil that someone (Pablo) >recommended but which only comes in drums and other huge quantities. It's >fairly thin (5 weight ??). > >Just something else to consider. > >Thom Hello to all. Dexron II and III formulations (red color) have a lot of additives which are totally unnecessary for a bearing. But I can't think right now of anything in them that might be harmful. I'll see if I can dig out some info. Will let you know. Regards, Pablo Roufogalis L. proufo@cantv.net (se dice proufo atencion de cantevepuntonet) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: [teres] I'm I doing this bearing right? Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 12:55:20 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: Teres Hi folks, Well, I'm progressing a bit. I have the motor and controller kit essentially assembled. I'm working on getting a platform into some sort of prototype base. I'm kind of hung up on filling the bearing, though. Did I do this right? First, I put a little power steering fluid in the bearing sump. Next I put in the Delron pad. Then I wet the ball bearing with ps fluid and inserted it in the bottom of the spindle. Then, I wiped the spindle down with ps fluid and manually inserted it into the body of the bearing. After pushing all the air out that I could by hand, I put the bearing into a vice and began extracting the excess fluid. The bearing is oriented vertically to allow any trapped air to escape. Now, the shoulder of the spindle is about 1/8" above the highest point on the body of the bearing. It feels bottomed out and I have reduced the pressure a tad, to keep from distorting or breaking the Delron pad. Is this how far the spindle is supposed to protrude? The problem is, whenever I start releasing the clamp, the spindle just starts to push out of the body of the bearing. Worse, the reverse pressure pops the ball bearing out of the bottom of the spindle. It just rolls around in the sump and I have to disassemble everything to put it back in the spindle. What am I doing wrong? Should I just leave it in the clamp overnight to let the last bit of residual pressure bleed off? Thanks for the help! Cheers, Paul Subject: Re: [teres] I'm I doing this bearing right? Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 14:07:19 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com I probably did this all wrong, but: I filled the ball bearing cavity w/lube and inserted the bearing. I put a small amount of lube in the bottom of the bearing, dropped the pad in on top and pushed it down to make sure there wasn't any air underneath it. Then, trial and error for quantity, I put about 4ml of lube into the "sump" and gently pushed the spindle down into the bearing housing. The shaft and bearing were not "dry", but were not "flooded," either. This took about two minutes, as the air escaped around the spindle shaft. Then, I topped off the reservoir at the top under the spindle flange, e voila. Peter C ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Croft" To: "Teres" Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 11:47 AM Subject: [teres] I'm I doing this bearing right? > Hi folks, > Well, I'm progressing a bit. I have the motor and controller kit essentially > assembled. I'm working on getting a platform into some sort of prototype > base. > > I'm kind of hung up on filling the bearing, though. Did I do this right? > First, I put a little power steering fluid in the bearing sump. Next I put > in the Delron pad. Then I wet the ball bearing with ps fluid and inserted it > in the bottom of the spindle. > > Then, I wiped the spindle down with ps fluid and manually inserted it into > the body of the bearing. After pushing all the air out that I could by hand, > I put the bearing into a vice and began extracting the excess fluid. The > bearing is oriented vertically to allow any trapped air to escape. > > Now, the shoulder of the spindle is about 1/8" above the highest point on > the body of the bearing. It feels bottomed out and I have reduced the > pressure a tad, to keep from distorting or breaking the Delron pad. Is this > how far the spindle is supposed to protrude? > > The problem is, whenever I start releasing the clamp, the spindle just > starts to push out of the body of the bearing. Worse, the reverse pressure > pops the ball bearing out of the bottom of the spindle. It just rolls around > in the sump and I have to disassemble everything to put it back in the > spindle. > > What am I doing wrong? Should I just leave it in the clamp overnight to let > the last bit of residual pressure bleed off? > > Thanks for the help! > Cheers, > Paul > > > > > > Subject: Re: [teres] I'm I doing this bearing right? Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 14:23:07 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com Paul, You are getting air trapped in the bearing. You have to make sure that the spindle and the bearing surfaces have no oil on them, otherwise the air will not be able to escape. The weight of the platter will displace the extra oil and fully seat the spindle in a couple of hours so there is no to clamp the bearing. The key is having the bearing surfaces clean and dry. Even a very thin film of oil will trap air. You also should fill the recess for the ball bearing with oil and then press the ball bearing in. This will keep air from being trapped under the bearing. This is probably why the ball bearing is coming out. Chris > I'm kind of hung up on filling the bearing, though. Did I do this right? > First, I put a little power steering fluid in the bearing sump. Next I put > in the Delron pad. Then I wet the ball bearing with ps fluid and inserted it > in the bottom of the spindle. > > Then, I wiped the spindle down with ps fluid and manually inserted it into > the body of the bearing. After pushing all the air out that I could by hand, > I put the bearing into a vice and began extracting the excess fluid. The > bearing is oriented vertically to allow any trapped air to escape. > > Now, the shoulder of the spindle is about 1/8" above the highest point on > the body of the bearing. It feels bottomed out and I have reduced the > pressure a tad, to keep from distorting or breaking the Delron pad. Is this > how far the spindle is supposed to protrude? > > The problem is, whenever I start releasing the clamp, the spindle just > starts to push out of the body of the bearing. Worse, the reverse pressure > pops the ball bearing out of the bottom of the spindle. It just rolls around > in the sump and I have to disassemble everything to put it back in the > spindle. > > What am I doing wrong? Should I just leave it in the clamp overnight to let > the last bit of residual pressure bleed off?