Subject: Re(2): [teres] Teres controller board Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:13:41 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis L., Pablo Roufogalis L. To: teres@aiko.com teres@aiko.com writes: >Manfreds design eliminates the need for speed adjustment so no pots are >needed. I agree but why lose the capability to make pitch changes if you want to? Pablo Roufogalis L. papablo@aretecnica.com (se dice papablo atencion de aretecnica punto com) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: Re(2): [teres] Teres controller board Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:03:52 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis L., Pablo Roufogalis L. To: teres@aiko.com teres@aiko.com writes: >If you want to be able to manually adjust the speed then you would >probably >be better off using a simple regulated power supply like the Verdier. >This >is what I was originally planning to use before Manfred offered his >design. Oh No! I don't have any original pressing of Kind of Blue at the wrong speed ;-) I can live with fixed speeds and I love the elegance of a feedback loop. In fact it was my dream solution. Thanks to you guys it is not a dream anymore. I am unable to download any additional info about the Teres motor/controller. The link in the digest is not valid anymore. Is it anywhere? Sent you a message to the sgi address. Regards and many thanks, Pablo Roufogalis L. papablo@aretecnica.com (se dice papablo atencion de aretecnica punto com) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: Re: Re(2): [teres] Teres controller board Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:29:15 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Pablo, >Also the motor is inside the outer platter in my Thorens. And it is mounted to the subchassis, right? >I might be wrong: Won't the control circuit just make the motor turn >faster if it drives a smaller platter, until it reaches the desired speed? With a given pulley diameter the motor rpm will decrease with decreasing platter diameter. The limit is set by the bearings of the motor which should not be operated *below* 500rpm. >If there are hard-coded speed limits in the controller, it shouldn't be >much difficult to develop a customized version for me. I'm open to any >requirements. No such limits and no need for a costomized version. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re(2): Re(2): [teres] Teres controller board Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:52:27 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis L., Pablo Roufogalis L. To: teres@aiko.com teres@aiko.com writes: >With a given pulley diameter the motor rpm will decrease with decreasing >platter diameter. The limit is set by the bearings of the motor which >should not >be operated *below* 500rpm. Oh, Dear. I have a diploma somewhere that say Pablo Roufogalis, Mechanical Engineer. Sorry for the absent-mindness. Yes, the Thorens motor if affixed to the sub-platter. Pablo Roufogalis L. papablo@aretecnica.com (se dice papablo atencion de aretecnica punto com) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: Turntable Motors - JM Le Cleac'h Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 08:24:36 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: Chris Brady Chris - sent privately (JM's Joe List post). Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Le Cleac'h J.-M. To: Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 6:24 AM Subject: Re: [JN] Turntable project Hello, About the motor, generally it is said that DC motors are more silentfull than AC motors. There is a kind of AC motor (synchronous) that are very silent, while powerfull: the PAPST motors. PAPST motors have an external rotor and possess a very high inertia. They are brushless. Also when you turn them by the hand you cannot feel anything (less than with a Maxon motor). Most professional tape recorders are using such PAPST motor to rotate their cabestan, at a place at which low noise is very important. They are guarrrantied for a very long lifetime. The Maxon motor is an excellent DC motor but who have a difficult work with a heavy platter turntable.It worns quite rapidly and you can hear clearly aerial noise from it) I possess several PAPST motors (2 different kinds weighting from 1.5 to 3 kilograms)) recovered from professional tape recorders their power are 8watts and 12 watts.When I feed them with AC, they rotate without any noise. The noise they emit in air is lower than the one of the Maxon motor I have now on my Verdier turntable (and much more than the original Philips of the Verdier). You can see my Verdier turntable at: http://www.arduman.com/aa/Sayfalar/lecleach/lecleach.htm I am currently designing an AC supply (I need 120degrees difference of phase between the signal feeding following coils, does any one have plan for such AC supply delivering sine signals with 120 degrees phase?). Soon as possible I'll try a PAPST motor on my Verdier turntable. Mister Roggero, a famous French audiophile is also planning to use a similar PAPST motor, give a look at: http://www.haute-fidelite.com/Visite-gorm-rug/visite-gorm4.html Best regards, Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France Subject: [teres] Platter Clearances Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 12:20:26 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com Fellow Terestrials! Greetings from About-To-Be-Summer Phoenix! This is a question that may have been addressed before, but blamed if I can find a reference to the subject. Manfred may well be The Man on this one. Presently, my plan for the platter implementation involves raising the platter/bearing assembly 2.7" + above the plinth by means of a machined brass thingy. This is at least partially for cosmetic reasons, but also to avoid big application difficulties with the isolation of the platter/bearing from the plinth. It's a hollow, truncated cone w/ .75" wall thickness, heavy and machined reliably flat on upper and lower surfaces, 12" on one end, 10.5" on the other. (Has Vent-A-Ports, too.) Question is this: What is the maximum distance the optical sensor can be from the strobe disk on the bottom of the platter and still provide reliable readings? and does the sensor's radius from the center of rotation affect this accuracy to any notable degree? I have a choice of several ways implementing the bearing mounting disk to be inserted in (either end of) the brass cone (one way being easier than the other) but clearances for the speed sensor could become a problem. Just biding my time with thought experiments, waiting for hardware... Peter C Subject: Re: [teres] Platter Clearances Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:40:46 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Peter, > Question is this: What is the maximum distance the optical sensor can be > from the strobe disk on the bottom of the platter and still provide reliable > readings? The distance from the sensor to the platter has to be 1mm, The thickness of the sensor is about 2mm. > and does the sensor's radius from the center of rotation affect > this accuracy to any notable degree? The farther away from the center the better. This is because the radial velocity increases with the diameter. This means that the time it takes for the border in between black and white to pass the sensitive area of the sensor gets shorter and thus we get sharper signal edges. In practice a distance of 70 mm from the sensor to the rotational center is ok. Regards Manfred Subject: [teres] Motors - AC/DC Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 23:22:57 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: Teres_List CC: jchiu@northstar.ap.columbia.edu Hi all, Some of you know Johannes Chiu from the Joe List & his website whre he documents his turntable design (http://www.columbia.edu/~jsc19/index.html). I had the pleasure of meeting Johannes at NY Noise where I asked him about his thoughts on motors. With his permission, I'm posting two recent e-mails to me. Motors are an area where I feel particularly ignorant and I was curious about why he favored AC sync. for his light-mass (compared to ours) platter. One thing that I didn't mention to Johannes was that our platter mass is indeed higher than that of the Scheu, being 3" thick acrylic (~ 15 lbs, vs. 5 kg. for the Scheu). Of course, the Verdier has a much higher mass platter than both, and according to Dr. Wilimzig's article in SP #10, the mass of even a Verdier is still not enough to damp out motor problems. Johannes' point is very well taken, Johannes regarding the importance of a good motor/controller. Realize that this was a private e-mail, but I thought that his thoughts were provocative. Not to stir up any trouble here (who, me? ) but here are the e-mails ... Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Johannes Chiu To: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 8:20 AM Subject: Re: AC/DC On Wed, 3 May 2000, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella wrote: > Hi Johannes, > > I re-read your comments on motors. Realizing that I'm more of a mechanical > type, I'm struggling with a couple of concepts & it's probably easiest to > talk with Chris Brady or one of the other local folks to "brush up" (pun > intended) on motor theory. I've really been following along in others' > slipstream in this area of the project. > > I noticed that you're not currently subscribed to Teres. Would you mind if > I copy your comments to the list (attributing the comments to you, of > course)? No, I don't mind if you send the comments to the list, just keep in mind I didn't write it for an audience. The difference here being that when I write to an individual, I tend to be less careful, always assuming the other person can reply and give me a chance to clarify unclear parts. If I did this to a list, I would no doubt get mail-bombed. I think instead of trying to think it through, it may be better just to observe it. Try to find a cheap dc motor, or even use the Maxxon, and start with a voltage that can just keep the motor rotating. Or otherwise, perhaps you remember seeing in movies people starting propeller airplanes by hand. The moment the propeller starts rotating, the motion is jagged, determined by the fact that the motor can only push the propeller at certain position during the rotation. I would argue the same thing occurs more prominent with dc motors than with ac motor. Of course, the Maxxon being a good motor, the question is whether this effect is audible or not. It may very well be inaudible, but one needs to find out, that is all I am saying. I doubt the Teres uses the same platter mass as the Scheu or even the Verdier. Johannes Chiu northstar.ap.columbia.edu ----- Original Message ----- From: Johannes Chiu To: Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 4:14 PM Subject: Small Correction Hi Thom, [snip] By the way, I figured out how to drive the motors inside a hard drive. The 3.5" drives have motors about the right size, with an impedance of 5-15 Ohms, which doesn't require amperes to drive. I used a LM 386 (400mW audio amp) chip, feeding it a sine wave of around 10-100Hz. All these motors are three phase, but if you help start it, just one phase can keep it rotating. Now, I need to figure out how to get a stable sine wave, and shift it by 120 degrees. The challenge is to do it over a wide frequency range. One worthy note that may interest you is that these motors are orginally brushless dc motors. But all modern hard drive omit the hall sensors used for commutating, and instead rely on generating some sort of frequency pulsing, or monitoring the back emf currents. If you figure in the commutation in an ordinary dc motor, the voltage waveform is like a square wave (dc signal gets chopped up by the commutator). However, since the magnetic field has poles (i.e. the field lines are not parallel) , the strength varies over the rotation. But since you apply the same voltage, the "push" changes over half the rotation, so the torque curve looks like a rectified sine wave. Microscopically, you can imagine the motor speeding up and down depending on the torque during each rotation. I know this explanation is vague, but my point is that unless you have the mass to smooth this, it will be audible,especially if the motor runs at low RPMS. One nice experiment would be to use such a brushless dc motor, and operate it under the different regimes. Or a similar comparison would be to run an AC synchronous motor with square waves and sine waves. VPI used to use somthing close to a square wave, but their latest power supply have a smoothed out waveform, I think exactly because of this reason. To summarize my thoughts, unless a dc motor has the magnets arranged specifically to be driven by a square wave, a sine wave is the more natural choice, giving smoother torque within each rotation (simply based on magnet arrangement and nothing else). The problem is that if the dc motor has commutators, then it cannot be driven by sine waves. That's why nobody has every really done side by side comparison of these schemes. I think in your turntable project, where so many people are building the same thing, you should spend some effort finding this out. After all, part of such a project is to pool the efforts together, to attain something better than one individual can achieve. It is my believe that even though a dc motor can give good results, everything else being equal, an ac motor can only be better or at least as good. Johannes Chiu jchiu@northstar.ap.columbia.edu Subject: Re: [teres] Motors - AC/DC Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 02:00:28 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: Teres_List CC: jchiu@northstar.ap.columbia.edu Thom, Johannes >Try to find a cheap dc motor, or even use the Maxxon, and >start with a voltage that can just keep the motor rotating. Or otherwise, >perhaps you remember seeing in movies people starting propeller airplanes >by hand. The moment the propeller starts rotating, the motion is jagged, >determined by the fact that the motor can only push the propeller at >certain position during the rotation. I tried this with a 48V Maxon motor. The motor starts to spin smoothly at about 0.3V! >I would argue the same thing occurs more prominent with dc motors than with ac motor. Agreed. A 3 phase ac motor can produce a very constant torque when supplied with a 3 phase sinusoidal voltage. With a mechanically commutated motor there will always remain some ripple. The magnitude of the ripple depends on the motor construction and with the Maxon (or Faulhaber) voice coil motors the ripple is fairly low. >Now, I need to figure out how to get a stable sine wave, >and shift it by 120 degrees. The >challenge is to do it over a wide frequency range. How about using a microcontroler and three D/A converters? >It is my believe that even though a dc motor can give good results, >everything else being equal, an ac motor can only be better or at least as good. I also think that good results can he had from both kinds of motor. I agree that the ac motor is able to produce a more constant torque. But there is at least one other thing that has to be considered: The mechanically commutated dc motor is an asynchronous motor while the ac motor with permanent magnets feed by a ac voltage with constant frequency is synchronous. The system made up from an asynchronous motor and a rotating mass is first order, i.e. it shows no resonance while the system made up from a synchronous motor and a moving mass is second order. Depending on the amount of damping involved the circumferential speed of the platter driven by an sync. motor can oscillate around its median value while this is not the case for a platter driven by an async. motor. Now what do I think would be the best solution? A 3 phase brushless ac motor with tacho generator (as opposed to hall or optical sensors) controlled by a microprocessor that generates sinusoidal drive voltages (smooth torque) while at the same time making it behave like an asynchronous motor. With this kind of motor the permanent magnets could as well be attached to the platter (direct drive). Now we know how most direct driven TTs sound but IMHO this is because they have high power synchronous motors and little damping at the same time. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re(2): [teres] Motors - AC/DC Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 06:13:25 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis L., Pablo Roufogalis L. To: teres@aiko.com teres@aiko.com writes: >Now what do I think would be the best solution? Hello to all. I'd say the best solution is to select a motor by its specs and let manufacturers find which designs are more efficient. Are these small motors spec'ed for ripple?. At what speed and torque? Without any scientific validation, I'd say that a capable motor coupled with a large-inertia platter and a flexible belt should provide all the speed constancy required. Can the controller be used to measure the stability of the platter speed? Would be great to have this provision for Son of Teres ;-) BTW, I haven't been able to find the specs for the motor on the internet. Can someone provide an URL. Many thanks in advance. Pablo Roufogalis L. papablo@aretecnica.com (se dice papablo atencion de aretecnica punto com) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: Re: [teres] Motors - AC/DC Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 08:30:20 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Pablo, I haven't been into the Maxon site, but here's an archived e-mail with the URL. I don't know if you've visted this site in your travels, but just in case ... Also, thanks to Manfred (again!!) for the informative post. Thom ------------------------------------------------------- Chris just found that one of the four Maxon locations in the USA is in Lafayette, CO - about 8 miles from his house!! He may have already cross-referenced the motor part # as I write this. It wasn't obvious, as the first level showed only two locations. The Lafayette location came up on a link from the Burlingame, CA link. Thom >From Maxon's website: http://www.maxonmotor.com/maxonWorldWide/index.html USA (Mountain Territory) maxon precision motors, inc. 211 North Public Road, Suite 225 US-Lafayette, CO 80026 Tel.: 1-800-865-7540 Fax: 1-650-697-2887 Website: http://www.mpm.maxonmotor.com Contact us via Email -----Original Message----- From: Fritz Moore [mailto:fbmoore@ucdavis.edu] Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 1:01 PM To: teres@aiko.com Subject: RE: [teres] Fwd: RE: Teres-Motor&Supply I don't know the price in the US but I bought the Maxon 110189 for about $50 direct from Maxon here in Germany. Regards Manfred I am trying to check prices on the Maxon motor from a vender I have have used in the past. The part #110189 has no listing in his part books so I was wondering if anybody knows a US # for this motor or any alternate #s for listing this motor. TheMaxon #s Ive seen tend to be long like2434.970-50.225-217. Thank you, Fritz ----- Original Message ----- From: Pablo Roufogalis L. To: Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 6:08 AM Subject: Re(2): [teres] Motors - AC/DC teres@aiko.com writes: >Now what do I think would be the best solution? [snip] BTW, I haven't been able to find the specs for the motor on the internet. Can someone provide an URL. Many thanks in advance. Pablo Roufogalis L. papablo@aretecnica.com (se dice papablo atencion de aretecnica punto com) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: Re: [teres] Motors - AC/DC Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:23:09 -0700 From: Johannes Chiu, Johannes Chiu To: Manfred Huber CC: Teres_List On Fri, 5 May 2000, Manfred Huber wrote: > Thom, Johannes > > >Now, I need to figure out how to get a stable sine wave, > >and shift it by 120 degrees. The > >challenge is to do it over a wide frequency range. > > How about using a microcontroler and three D/A converters? > Generating sine waves through D/A converters is a problem in itself. The challenge is how to do it over a wide frequency range. One could change the master clock, which makes the post filtering very difficult. One could devise some sort of sine generating program, without using some sort of look-up table, but that means one cannot just use something like a Microchip PIC controller. Finally, just thinking through the whole implementation gives me a headache, having to watch out for all possible traps of DOs and DON'Ts in digital and D/A designs. > The mechanically commutated dc motor is an asynchronous motor while > the ac motor with permanent magnets feed by a ac voltage with constant > frequency is synchronous. > > The system made up from an asynchronous motor and a rotating mass > is first order, i.e. it shows no resonance while the system made up from > a synchronous motor and a moving mass is second order. Depending on the > amount of damping involved the circumferential speed of the platter driven > by an sync. motor can oscillate around its median value while this is not > the case for a platter driven by an async. motor. Yes, this is very true. However, I think the key here is the damping, or more specifically, the overall friction that dissipates all the energy stored in the platter. IF the damping is constant, then an asychronous motor is as good as things can be. Now, I don't really know how constant the frictions are, and one probably could argue that it is. But to me, this is akin to designing an solid state amplifier circuit without taking into account the transistor gm spread. The reason that a sychronous motor appeals to me is that if one assures that there is a minimum level of damping, then one can assert an upper bound to the resonance. If the damping is not enough, just find more viscous oil or use grease. My point is that it is a variable that is easy to tweak. Thereafter, the damping may increase, but it doesn't affect speed stability. With the asynchronous system, unless you have a feedback servo system, one cannot be guaranteed of that. Then, one needs to tweak the optimum time constant of the servo loop, and perhaps one even needs to change the platter mass or motor just to get close to this number. All these discussions are qualitative, and ultimately the only way a correct solution can be asserted is to have quantitative numbers. But the problem is that nobody has this data, and these numbers would be different from mine, the Teres and the Scheu. So, in the end, the only easy way to find out is to experiment and compare the results in a side by side show down. Personally, this kind of comparison is the least appealing activity in DIY to me, as I hate listening to the same cut over and over again. But in a group effort, I think this would be the most fun part, at least it gives everybody a good excuse to meet face to face. So, I just hope you guys are still trying out different things before deciding what to implement. Only after I made and listened to my first version do I realize all these changes that could be made. Sometimes, I almost feel I can just chuck this one and start from scratch, as there are so many things that I would do differently. Johannes jchiu@northstar.ap.columbia.edu Subject: Re(2): [teres] Motors - AC/DC Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 16:53:39 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis L., Pablo Roufogalis L. To: teres@aiko.com CC: teres@aiko.com teres@aiko.com writes: >I haven't been into the Maxon site, but here's an archived e-mail with the >URL. I don't know if you've visted this site in your travels, but just >in >case ... Dear Thom, Many thanks. I did visit the Maxon site in the past but the model indicated in the digest is not there. I tried the German brand (forgot) too with no success either. Regards and thanks again, Pablo Roufogalis L. papablo@aretecnica.com (se dice papablo atencion de aretecnica punto com) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Mounting & Other Dimensions Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:22:29 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Thom, >I renamed the subject so that it will call attention to Manfred with respect >to your motor mounting questions. A very successful attempt >I don't think that there are any cooling or lubrication issues with the >motor. My understanding is that it can be completely enclosed with no >ventilation - mounting to the large, aluminum plate should easily take care >of any heat dissipation requirments. I don't know the length of the motor, >but I'd leave a half inch clearance between the bottom of the motor and >anything below it - this is just a "gut" call on my part. This is absolutely right. The motor housing has a length of about 45mm. Unfortunately I don't have the details on the mounting plate. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: RE: [teres] Stands & Vibes Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 04:52:39 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com Hi Manfred, This is the .pdf file that David Duglos posted to the group last March 16. I There was quite a discussion about it then. Cheers, Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Manfred Huber > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 8:02 AM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: RE: [teres] Stands & Vibes > > > Paul, > > >So far, the only part of my Teres I have in hand is the strobe disk! > > Did you roll your own or did I miss something? > > Regards > Manfred > > > ------------------ > Manfred Huber > MHuber@t-online.de > ------------------ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: 60hz_strobe.pdf 60hz_strobe.pdf Type: Portable Document Format (application/pdf) Encoding: base64 Subject: Re: [teres] Was Stands & Vibes - now Speed Strobe Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 05:39:17 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Peter, >FWIW, my copy was saved as a .pdf file and prints out of Photo Editor to the >correct dimension. Who did the conversion from .tif to .pdf? At the time I decided to go with the .TIF format I also tried .PDF and noticed that the result was not very good when printed with the Acrobat reader. >Question: Since I now know the size is correct, the next step: is there a >special medium/paper that it needs to be printed on to work as intended? Just about every white paper will work. I also tried white plastic film and it worked. You should use a paper that is a bit heavier then the standard quality. This gives better mechanical stability during the alignment of the disk on the platter. >Also, should we have had Bryce etch this pattern on the bottom side? While this may be possible it would require a tedious process of try and error to get it right. My paper strobe disk is working for about 1.5 years now without any problem. >Maybe something gold plated and chemically inert riveted to the platter and >dynamically balanced on an F1 tire balancer? >Can the Ice Cream Truck concept be employed to good effect? And what about the Zamboni? This one is beyond me :-( Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Was Stands & Vibes - now Speed Strobe Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 06:47:48 -0700 From: Kalman Rubinson, Kalman Rubinson To: teres@aiko.com On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Manfred Huber wrote: > >Question: Since I now know the size is correct, the next step: is there a > >special medium/paper that it needs to be printed on to work as intended? > > Just about every white paper will work. I also tried white plastic film and it worked. > You should use a paper that is a bit heavier then the standard quality. This gives better > mechanical stability during the alignment of the disk on the platter. One possibility is to use one of the printible, adhesive-backed plastic films. Then one can apply it to a rigid disc. If using such a medium, it is a good idea to spray it with a fixative to further retard abrasion of the print. Kal Subject: Re: [teres] Was Stands & Vibes - now Speed Strobe Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 07:02:47 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com >One possibility is to use one of the printible, >adhesive-backed plastic films. Yes, I tried this and it workes fine. >Then one can apply it to a rigid disc. I applied it right to the platter >If using such a medium, it is a good idea to spray it with a fixative to >further retard abrasion of the print. I also tried this and it did not work! The spray coating behaved reflective for IR light and the contrast was gone. I think that coating is not strictly necessary as the disk is mounted to the back side of the platter where it can not be touched. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Was Stands & Vibes - now Speed Strobe Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 07:16:35 -0700 From: Kalman Rubinson, Kalman Rubinson To: teres@aiko.com On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Manfred Huber wrote: > >If using such a medium, it is a good idea to spray it with a fixative to > >further retard abrasion of the print. > > I also tried this and it did not work! The spray coating behaved reflective for > IR light and the contrast was gone. > > I think that coating is not strictly necessary as the disk is mounted to > the back side of the platter where it can not be touched. Yes. I was referring to a query about the making of a standard disc for visually-guided adjustments. Kal Subject: Re: [teres] Was Stands & Vibes - now Speed Strobe Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 07:17:10 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Manfred Huber" To: Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 4:31 AM Subject: Re: [teres] Was Stands & Vibes - now Speed Strobe > Peter, > > >FWIW, my copy was saved as a .pdf file and prints out of Photo Editor to the > >correct dimension. > > Who did the conversion from .tif to .pdf? I don't remember. I may not have saved the original post it was attached to. The file has the dates of March 17 and March 25 if that helps. > At the time I decided to go with the .TIF format I also tried .PDF and noticed > that the result was not very good when printed with the Acrobat reader. Looks pretty good to my unpracticed eye. Feeble attempt at late night humor follows: > >Also, should we have had Bryce etch this pattern on the bottom side? > > While this may be possible it would require a tedious process of try and > error to get it right. > >Maybe something gold plated and chemically inert riveted to the platter and > >dynamically balanced on an F1 tire balancer? > > > > >Can the Ice Cream Truck concept be employed to good effect? And what about the Zamboni? > Peter C --------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: 60hz_strobe.pdf 60hz_strobe.pdf Type: Portable Document Format (application/pdf) Encoding: base64 Subject: [teres] Motor & Controller kit status Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:56:26 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com CC: MHuber@t-online.de Ron Welborn created a prototype PCB for the motor controller. Last night I got the controller working and tested the alternate optical sensors. For testing I just put stuck a piece of white styrofoam on to the motor shaft and put black electrical tape on half of it to provide a contrast for the optical sensor. It works just as advertised. The speed stabilizes and then switches to the slow integration mode. This confirms the suitability of the new optical sensors and verifies the PCB layout. It also proves that we can properly program the micro-controller. However, I did encounter a couple of minor problems. 1) The two color LED's that I ordered will not work with the controller. The LED's have three leads with the both cathodes connected (common cathode). To use with the controller we need common anode LED's or dual LED's with 4 leads and neither are available. Since the two color LED's can't be used, I will just drop it from the kit. That way everyone can choose LED's and mounting bezel's that tickle their fancy. They should be readily available to everyone. Sorry for goofing on this! 2) I came across a very strange phenomena with the strobe disk. For testing I printed the strobe disk tiff that Manfred provided on my Epson inkjet printer. Well it seem that the sensor can't tell the difference between the inkjet printed black and white paper. I measured the sensor output when it was placed over white and black areas and there was ZERO difference! However, placing the sensor over black tape or black from an indelible marker there was a large signal change. I thought that black was black! To the eye the blacks looked essentially the same. I will experiment with laser printing and photocopying the strobe disk and see what works. It looks like we can't just print it with an inkjet printer. Chris PS: Manfred, I found that changing R3 from 4.7k to 15k improves the sensitivity with this sensor. With the 15k resistor the sensor works well up to 4mm away. Subject: RE: [teres] Teres motor&controller update Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 08:02:56 -0700 From: David Dlugos, David Dlugos To: teres@aiko.com >Is there a copy of the strobe disk on the web? I looked at Chris' Teres web >site and didn't see it there. Is it somewhere I can download it? I had two in my arcives: David Basiji (60 Hz) http://homepage.mac.com/planet10/60hz_strobe.pdf SDS Labs (50 & 60) http://homepage.mac.com/planet10/strobe.pdf dave ____________________________________ Transmission Line Speaker Page http://www.t-linespeakers.org/ updated. Martin J King's TL model NEW! Rune's Jordan JX150/JX53 Phase Linear Transmission Line NEW! Site Map Subject: RE: [teres] Teres motor&controller update Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 08:03:02 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Paul, >Is there a copy of the strobe disk on the web? I looked at Chris' Teres web >site and didn't see it there. Is it somewhere I can download it? See http://home.t-online.de/home/mhuber/strobo.tif Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: RE: [teres] Teres motor&controller update Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 02:14:13 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Paul, >As I recall there was some discussion about what is suitable to print this >on. Am I correct that it should be printed on white paper and glued to the >platter? Here are some snippets from older older posts of mine: ------------------- I used relatively heavy paper for the strobe disk. It has a weight of 160 g/m^2. According to a table in my printer manual this translates into an US bond weight of 43 lb. After printing is done the back side of the paper is covered with sticky tape. I used the type of tape that is sticky on both sides - a thin plastic foil with what looks like acrylic glue. This stuff is used to bond carpets to the floor. The protective cover on the tape is *not* removed at this point in time. Next I used a compass that is equipped with a scalpel blade to do four circular cuts: 1. d=160mm, cut all way though the disc, tape and cover. 2. d=145mm, cut from the back side through the protective cover, the tape and the paper. The cut through the paper is not done completely so that there is still some connection of the inner and outer part of the disc. 3. d=125mm, cut in the same way as (2) 4. d=diameter of center hole of the platter. Cut all way though the disc, tape and cover. This is gives a hole in the center of the strobe disc that can be used to align the center of the disc and the platter. After cutting is done a ring of protective cover between cut 2 and 3 is removed. The remaining cover is not removed! Now the disc is centered on the back side of the platter and the sticky tape is pressed on. Do not rub! You don't want to remove the toner! Now all material on the inside of cut #3 and on the outside of cut #4 can be removed. All that remains on the platter is a ring with an inner diameter of 125mm and an outer diameter of 145mm. On the centering: First I put the strobe on the platter and centered it by hand. At this point in time it was not pressed to the platter and the glue did not stick. Next I used a stripe of paper about 10cm wide and 50cm long and made a roll from it. This roll was inserted into the holes of the the platter and the strobe disk. When letting loose the roll it expanded to the diameter of the hole and centered the strobe. After this I pressed the disk to the platter and removed the outer and inner parts. ------------------ >I seem to recall that printing it on clear mylar doesn't give enough contrast. I have not tried this. The most elegant solution I found until now is a kind of white plastic foil that is sticky on its back side and can be used with a laser printer. I found this stuff at a German DIY electronics store. They sell it as simple means to make nice looking control panels. I don't know if this stuff is available in the US but it is worth looking for it. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: RE: [teres] Teres motor&controller update Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:06:13 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Paul, >Hmm, I wonder if the paper will absorb moister and dirt over the years? Just >thinking out loud here... This is not a problem here in the mild middle european climate. My strobe disk is about 1.5 years old now and it shows no sign of wear. I sure can't tell how the paper will behave in (sub)tropic regions (Florida?). My guess is that if the place is dry and clean enough to operate a turntable there then the environmental conditions will be good enough for the strobe disk also. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Strobe Disk for George Munger Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:04:52 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: insight@bestweb.net CC: Chris Brady; George Munger (w) Attn: Mark Hoefer Hello, Mark - George Munger asked me to forward a copy of the strobe disk file which we are looking to produce on matte surfaced plastic. The outer diameter of this disk is 145 mm (approx 5.7"). Some notes about the color density of the black bars are in order. The electronic sensor we use is a bit finicky and has trouble reading some densities of black ink. When a sample disk was printed on an inkjet printer, we had such problems. Printing on an HP Laserjet produced good results however. My understanding is that this sensor reads the color density using infared light which is apparently quite sensitive to the ink used. Prior to printing prototypes, perhaps it makes sense to send a sample of this material for testing. It would have to have at least one white and black stripe - shape is not critical as long as there is a white and a black stripe on the material. My technical associate, Chris Brady can then determine the workability of these materials prior to producing 50 to 100 samples. If this is a workable solution for you, feel free to send such a sample to: Chris Brady 2190 Snowmass Circle Broomfield, CO 80020-9671 Otherwise, I suspect that George, you, Chris and I will be in communication with you to discuss the next step. Regards and thanks in advance, Thom Mackris --------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: Manfred_strobo.tiff Manfred_strobo.tiff Type: TIFF Image (image/tiff) Encoding: base64 Subject: Re: [teres] Making a Strobe Disk Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:22:08 -0700 From: George Munger, George Munger To: teres@aiko.com Paper has a way of not always remaining as what you want it to. I have noticed that the adheseive used on some labels deteriorates over time, allows the label to misshapen and become more difficult to remove. I am attempting to see if some New York area commercial sign-making/graphic shops can make a durable stobe disc, using the Teres pattern, on a decal, or silk-screen print, (or something like) on (maybe) a thin (1/16th inch or less), white-matte plastic disc, and with the hope to have a prototype for Chris to test within 10 days. If successful, we could make 50-100 ? pieces for distribution to all concerned, for the first and possibly second TT run with a goal of durability, accuracy, and low cost. GM >>> Chris Brady 07/22 12:06 PM >>> For my strobe disk I photocopied the strobe disk image on to full sheet labels from Office Max. The adhesive back sticks securely to the bottom of the platter, but it can not be removed without destroying the disk. However, a little window cleaner easily disolves the adhesive. So removing the stobe disk is messy but otherwise not a problem. So long as the toner from the copier does not fade this should last for a long time. I am not aware of any problems with copy machine toner fading and I have some very old copies that still look fine. Chris Steve Zettel wrote: > > on 7/21/00 23:21, Igor Kuznetsoff at gorkuz@yahoo.com wrote: > > > There is > > a print shop just around two corners from here, this > > not being Libby, Montana . Maybe, if I can catch > > them while they're open, I'll ask, as well, > > never know who has access to what materials, can't > > hurt to increase our chances of getting lucky. > > > > Igor > > > Hey now! George the sign painter is slow but he takes a lot of pride in his > work! > > Actually, we do have a commercial print shop in town, and we have *two* > newspapers being printed locally (The Western New and The Montanian). For > something a bit our of the ordinary line of work, like our strobe disks > though, I'd be better off cost-wise just buying the materials myself and > experimenting with the laser printers and inkjets at work. > > Steve > near cosmopolitan, downtown Libby, MT USA Subject: RE: [teres] Making a Strobe Disk Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 09:20:41 -0700 From: Epstein, Jeremy, Epstein, Jeremy To: 'teres@aiko.com' George, this sounds like it would be ideal, given of course that the reflectivity/contrast issue does not pose a problem with this material. Keep us posted of course, and I hope you are enjoying your summer! -j ========================================= Jeremy Epstein........jepstein@ndbcap.com ========================================= > -----Original Message----- > From: George Munger [mailto:GMunger@mnr.org] > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 10:13 AM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Making a Strobe Disk > > > Paper has a way of not always remaining as what you want it > to. I have noticed that the adheseive used on some labels > deteriorates over time, allows the label to misshapen and > become more difficult to remove. I am attempting to see if > some New York area commercial sign-making/graphic shops can > make a durable stobe disc, using the Teres pattern, on a > decal, or silk-screen print, (or something like) on (maybe) a > thin (1/16th inch or less), white-matte plastic disc, and > with the hope to have a prototype for Chris to test within 10 > days. If successful, we could make 50-100 ? pieces for > distribution to all concerned, for the first and possibly > second TT run with a goal of durability, accuracy, and low cost. GM > > >>> Chris Brady 07/22 12:06 PM >>> > For my strobe disk I photocopied the strobe disk image on to > full sheet labels from Office Max. The adhesive back sticks > securely to the bottom of the platter, but it can not be > removed without destroying the disk. However, a little > window cleaner easily disolves the adhesive. So removing the > stobe disk is messy but otherwise not a problem. So long as > the toner from the copier does not fade this should last for > a long time. I am not aware of any problems with copy machine > toner fading and I have some very old copies that still look fine. > > Chris > > Steve Zettel wrote: > > > > on 7/21/00 23:21, Igor Kuznetsoff at gorkuz@yahoo.com wrote: > > > > > There is > > > a print shop just around two corners from here, this > > > not being Libby, Montana . Maybe, if I can catch > > > them while they're open, I'll ask, as well, > > > never know who has access to what materials, can't > > > hurt to increase our chances of getting lucky. > > > > > > Igor > > > > > Hey now! George the sign painter is slow but he takes a lot > of pride in his > > work! > > > > Actually, we do have a commercial print shop in town, and > we have *two* > > newspapers being printed locally (The Western New and The > Montanian). For > > something a bit our of the ordinary line of work, like our > strobe disks > > though, I'd be better off cost-wise just buying the > materials myself and > > experimenting with the laser printers and inkjets at work. > > > > Steve > > near cosmopolitan, downtown Libby, MT USA > Subject: RE: [teres] Making a Strobe Disk Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 09:38:15 -0700 From: Fritz Moore, Fritz Moore To: teres@aiko.com George, I think thats a good idea. Somebody did this for the underhood maintenance sticker on an obscure car I collected. IT was a thin adhesive backed vinyl. As I recall it was a silkscreen process but that was back when the average consumer computer had 1mb or less. Fritz -----Original Message----- From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of George Munger Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 7:13 AM To: teres@aiko.com Subject: Re: [teres] Making a Strobe Disk Paper has a way of not always remaining as what you want it to. I have noticed that the adheseive used on some labels deteriorates over time, allows the label to misshapen and become more difficult to remove. I am attempting to see if some New York area commercial sign-making/graphic shops can make a durable stobe disc, using the Teres pattern, on a decal, or silk-screen print, (or something like) on (maybe) a thin (1/16th inch or less), white-matte plastic disc, and with the hope to have a prototype for Chris to test within 10 days. If successful, we could make 50-100 ? pieces for distribution to all concerned, for the first and possibly second TT run with a goal of durability, accuracy, and low cost. GM >>> Chris Brady 07/22 12:06 PM >>> For my strobe disk I photocopied the strobe disk image on to full sheet labels from Office Max. The adhesive back sticks securely to the bottom of the platter, but it can not be removed without destroying the disk. However, a little window cleaner easily disolves the adhesive. So removing the stobe disk is messy but otherwise not a problem. So long as the toner from the copier does not fade this should last for a long time. I am not aware of any problems with copy machine toner fading and I have some very old copies that still look fine. Chris Steve Zettel wrote: > > on 7/21/00 23:21, Igor Kuznetsoff at gorkuz@yahoo.com wrote: > > > There is > > a print shop just around two corners from here, this > > not being Libby, Montana . Maybe, if I can catch > > them while they're open, I'll ask, as well, > > never know who has access to what materials, can't > > hurt to increase our chances of getting lucky. > > > > Igor > > > Hey now! George the sign painter is slow but he takes a lot of pride in his > work! > > Actually, we do have a commercial print shop in town, and we have *two* > newspapers being printed locally (The Western New and The Montanian). For > something a bit our of the ordinary line of work, like our strobe disks > though, I'd be better off cost-wise just buying the materials myself and > experimenting with the laser printers and inkjets at work. > > Steve > near cosmopolitan, downtown Libby, MT USA Subject: Re: [teres] Making a Strobe Disk Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 09:45:30 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Good idea, George, keep at it. It would be good if the printer could either punch cut the inner & outer circles (but only if centering accuracy is possible), or, at least, print accurately centered circles to simplify accurate application. We can do the cutting in the second case. I will try to stop in at the printers nearby to see if I can give a hand, but chances are, all that is likely would be some additional information. I have used that shop once, and thought the fellow there to be knowledgeable. The shop itself is not especially big, so that is about all I really expect to result of the visit. Igor --- George Munger wrote: > Paper has a way of not always remaining as what you > want it to. I have noticed that the adheseive used > on some labels deteriorates over time, allows the > label to misshapen and become more difficult to > remove. I am attempting to see if some New York > area commercial sign-making/graphic shops can make a > durable stobe disc, using the Teres pattern, on a > decal, or silk-screen print, (or something like) on > (maybe) a thin (1/16th inch or less), white-matte > plastic disc, and with the hope to have a prototype > for Chris to test within 10 days. If successful, we > could make 50-100 ? pieces for distribution to all > concerned, for the first and possibly second TT run > with a goal of durability, accuracy, and low cost. > GM > > >>> Chris Brady 07/22 12:06 PM >>> > For my strobe disk I photocopied the strobe disk > image on to > full sheet labels from Office Max. The adhesive > back sticks > securely to the bottom of the platter, but it can > not be > removed without destroying the disk. However, a > little > window cleaner easily disolves the adhesive. So > removing the > stobe disk is messy but otherwise not a problem. So > long as > the toner from the copier does not fade this should > last for > a long time. I am not aware of any problems with > copy machine > toner fading and I have some very old copies that > still look fine. > > Chris > > Steve Zettel wrote: > > > > on 7/21/00 23:21, Igor Kuznetsoff at > gorkuz@yahoo.com wrote: > > > > > There is > > > a print shop just around two corners from here, > this > > > not being Libby, Montana . Maybe, if I can > catch > > > them while they're open, I'll ask, as well, > > > never know who has access to what materials, > can't > > > hurt to increase our chances of getting lucky. > > > > > > Igor > > > > > Hey now! George the sign painter is slow but he > takes a lot of pride in his > > work! > > > > Actually, we do have a commercial print shop in > town, and we have *two* > > newspapers being printed locally (The Western New > and The Montanian). For > > something a bit our of the ordinary line of work, > like our strobe disks > > though, I'd be better off cost-wise just buying > the materials myself and > > experimenting with the laser printers and inkjets > at work. > > > > Steve > > near cosmopolitan, downtown Libby, MT USA > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] Making a Strobe Disk Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:22:08 -0700 From: George Munger, George Munger To: teres@aiko.com I should have mentioned, that cutting a truly accurate center hole, is to be included in this Teres Strobe Disc effort, after I get it to succeed, to help avoid our need to make adjustments. GM >>> Igor Kuznetsoff 07/24 11:41 AM >>> Good idea, George, keep at it. It would be good if the printer could either punch cut the inner & outer circles (but only if centering accuracy is possible), or, at least, print accurately centered circles to simplify accurate application. We can do the cutting in the second case. I will try to stop in at the printers nearby to see if I can give a hand, but chances are, all that is likely would be some additional information. I have used that shop once, and thought the fellow there to be knowledgeable. The shop itself is not especially big, so that is about all I really expect to result of the visit. Igor --- George Munger wrote: > Paper has a way of not always remaining as what you > want it to. I have noticed that the adheseive used > on some labels deteriorates over time, allows the > label to misshapen and become more difficult to > remove. I am attempting to see if some New York > area commercial sign-making/graphic shops can make a > durable stobe disc, using the Teres pattern, on a > decal, or silk-screen print, (or something like) on > (maybe) a thin (1/16th inch or less), white-matte > plastic disc, and with the hope to have a prototype > for Chris to test within 10 days. If successful, we > could make 50-100 ? pieces for distribution to all > concerned, for the first and possibly second TT run > with a goal of durability, accuracy, and low cost. > GM > > >>> Chris Brady 07/22 12:06 PM >>> > For my strobe disk I photocopied the strobe disk > image on to > full sheet labels from Office Max. The adhesive > back sticks > securely to the bottom of the platter, but it can > not be > removed without destroying the disk. However, a > little > window cleaner easily disolves the adhesive. So > removing the > stobe disk is messy but otherwise not a problem. So > long as > the toner from the copier does not fade this should > last for > a long time. I am not aware of any problems with > copy machine > toner fading and I have some very old copies that > still look fine. > > Chris > > Steve Zettel wrote: > > > > on 7/21/00 23:21, Igor Kuznetsoff at > gorkuz@yahoo.com wrote: > > > > > There is > > > a print shop just around two corners from here, > this > > > not being Libby, Montana . Maybe, if I can > catch > > > them while they're open, I'll ask, as well, > > > never know who has access to what materials, > can't > > > hurt to increase our chances of getting lucky. > > > > > > Igor > > > > > Hey now! George the sign painter is slow but he > takes a lot of pride in his > > work! > > > > Actually, we do have a commercial print shop in > town, and we have *two* > > newspapers being printed locally (The Western New > and The Montanian). For > > something a bit our of the ordinary line of work, > like our strobe disks > > though, I'd be better off cost-wise just buying > the materials myself and > > experimenting with the laser printers and inkjets > at work. > > > > Steve > > near cosmopolitan, downtown Libby, MT USA > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail û Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: RE: [teres] Making a Strobe Disk Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 15:26:57 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com That sure would be great, George! If we could make this happen for the first run, I think it would be a superior strobe. Cheers, Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > George Munger > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 10:13 AM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Making a Strobe Disk > > (snip...) I am attempting to see if some New > York area commercial sign-making/graphic shops can make a durable > stobe disc, using the Teres pattern, on a decal, or silk-screen > print, (or something like) on (maybe) a thin (1/16th inch or > less), white-matte plastic disc, and with the hope to have a > prototype for Chris to test within 10 days. If successful, we > could make 50-100 ? pieces for distribution to all concerned, for > the first and possibly second TT run with a goal of durability, > accuracy, and low cost. GM > (>More snipping...) > Subject: Strobe Disk for George Munger Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:03:25 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: Thom Mackris (h) ----- Original Message ----- From: Thom Mackris To: Cc: George Munger (w) ; Chris Brady Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 8:57 AM Subject: Strobe Disk for George Munger George Munger (telephone 914-277-4577) asked me to forward a copy of the strobe disk file which we are looking to produce on an adhesive backed matte surfaced plastic. As we get farther along this project, we can discuss the types of adhesives that you use. The disk will be affixed to a piece of acrylic and should be semi-permanent: in other words, it should be removable without harming the acrylic in the event that realignment is necessary. Please accept my apology in advance if this e-mail is too detailed and I'm stating the obious to you. I'd rather not leave any assumptions unstated. This file is a .tif file which your graphics program should be able to open. Size & Shape: The outer diameter of this disk was drawn to 145 mm (approx 5.7"). This size should be thought of as a minimum. The exact size is not critical as long as this is treated as a minimum. The disk can be as large as 6". Note that if you are scaling this image to get to this size, that this disk is a *circle*. In other words, scale the image *evenly* in the x and y axis (horizontal and vertical) in order to maintain the circlular shape. When I use the shareware program Graphics Workshop to print this program, I have to scale it to 50% in order to print at approximately the above size. It is our intent to punch a concentric hole in the center of the disk with a diameter of 1.75". This hole will be used for alignment purposes. Concentricity is critical. If you have the capability to do this, we would consider deferring to the precision that you can attain. Color density of the black bars: This strobe disk should print with alternating *solid* black and white radial bars. I noticed that some printers do not render the bars as solid (they print with stripes). My home Laserjet prints them solid black, which is what we need. The electronic sensor we use is a bit finicky and has trouble reading some densities of black ink. When a sample disk was printed onto paper using an inkjet printer, we had problems getting readings off the sensor. Printing on an HP Laserjet produced good results however. My understanding is that this sensor reads the color density using infared light which is apparently quite sensitive to the ink used. Prototyping: Prior to producing these disks, it makes sense to send a sample of this material for testing. We would need at least one white and one black stripe - shape is not critical as long as there is a white and a black stripe on the material which we will end up using. My technical associate, Chris Brady can then determine if the sensor can get correct readings off the material prior to producing 50 to 100 items. If this is a workable solution for you, feel free to send such a sample to: Chris Brady 2190 Snowmass Circle Broomfield, CO 80020-9671 Otherwise, I suspect that George, you, Chris and I will be in communication with you to discuss the next step. Regards and thanks in advance, Thom Mackris Subject: [teres] Speed Sensor Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:25:09 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: Teres Shuffling slowly towards realization of this fantasy: I was pondering the implementation of my motor pod (basically a 5" H x 4.5"OD brass cylinder.) I realized that once I had raised the platter to get the motor sheave height to a desirable position on the platter rim, there's room under the drive "belt" in the body of the pod itself to put the speed sensor. This would have the sensor reading horizontally rather than vertically, and would read the timing information from the rim rather than the underside of the platter, not unlike (visually) the commonly understood strobe. This would have certain advantages: All the wiring for the sensor circuit could/would remain in the pod itself (or separately,) simplifying things from somewhat to immensely (depending on implementation of all the rest.) Visual inspection of the integrity of the sensor configuration would be facilitated. Adjustment/cleaning would be facilitated (I surmise) because the platter would not have to be removed to do so. The big down side of this idea: A new strobe set up would have to be developed, not 6" dia but a pi x 12.28" long strip (plus a reliable method of affixing.) Since the sensor circuit is basically only counting when in run mode, the use of larger "stripes" could be seen as a plus. Obviously, the frequency remains the same, but the sample "size" is larger. The resolution of the stripe itself (in DPI) might become less of a factor, because it is wider. Exposure of the strobe strip to ambient light (the range from kliegs or the cold clear light of day to the glow from joss sticks (for you hippie throwbacks)) might improve the sensor's discernment. Any reactions? Peter C Subject: Re: [teres] Speed Sensor Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:19:00 -0700 From: Kalman Rubinson, Kalman Rubinson To: Teres On Mon, 31 Jul 2000, phclark wrote: > Shuffling slowly towards realization of this fantasy: > > This would have the sensor reading horizontally rather than vertically, and > would read the timing information from the rim rather than the underside of > the platter, not unlike (visually) the commonly understood strobe. I have been contemplating such an arrangement for a while but I have been stuck on the means for implementing it. One way would be to score the edge of the platter by placing on an accurate dividing mount (which I do not have) on the mill. Another would be to make/print a tape to adhere to the perimeter but this, for my use, would have to have exactly 600 divisions per revolution, no more or less fractionally! Any other ideas? Kal Subject: Re: [teres] Speed Sensor Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:07:04 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Not a bad idea, Peter. I like the idea of a self contained motor pod and sensor. Rim mounting the strobe would certainly eliminate the error involved in centering a disk on the platter's underside. I suspect however that there would be a couple of problems to overcome in implementing this plan. Since the sensor has to be a millimeter or two from the disc, some sort of adjustable rod would have to be fabricated in order to facilitate moving the sensor into range after the belt tension was set. Without this form of adjustment, you'd have a hell of a time getting belt tension (and length) correct. I don't know what the effect of finger smudges & oils would be on the chosen material for the strobe. Cheers, Thom Original Message ----- From: phclark To: Teres Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 12:11 PM Subject: [teres] Speed Sensor Shuffling slowly towards realization of this fantasy: I was pondering the implementation of my motor pod (basically a 5" H x 4.5"OD brass cylinder.) I realized that once I had raised the platter to get the motor sheave height to a desirable position on the platter rim, there's room under the drive "belt" in the body of the pod itself to put the speed sensor. This would have the sensor reading horizontally rather than vertically, and would read the timing information from the rim rather than the underside of the platter, not unlike (visually) the commonly understood strobe. This would have certain advantages: All the wiring for the sensor circuit could/would remain in the pod itself (or separately,) simplifying things from somewhat to immensely (depending on implementation of all the rest.) Visual inspection of the integrity of the sensor configuration would be facilitated. Adjustment/cleaning would be facilitated (I surmise) because the platter would not have to be removed to do so. The big down side of this idea: A new strobe set up would have to be developed, not 6" dia but a pi x 12.28" long strip (plus a reliable method of affixing.) Since the sensor circuit is basically only counting when in run mode, the use of larger "stripes" could be seen as a plus. Obviously, the frequency remains the same, but the sample "size" is larger. The resolution of the stripe itself (in DPI) might become less of a factor, because it is wider. Exposure of the strobe strip to ambient light (the range from kliegs or the cold clear light of day to the glow from joss sticks (for you hippie throwbacks)) might improve the sensor's discernment. Any reactions? Peter C Subject: Re: [teres] Speed Sensor Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:31:17 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com > As I recall, the clearance number was revised by Chris to 4mm, not a big > help, but some. I suspect some fine tuning on the hardware spec might be in > order. I wouldn't want to second guess all the fine work already done by > Chris, Manfred, Ron and all, but if the sensor is running off ambient light > there may be difficulties anyway, considering I prefer a rather low light > level when I'm listening. I found that the sensor worked up to 4mm from the strobe disk, but it works best when it is about 1mm away. The sensor is a IR emitter and sensor in a single package so no external lighting is required. Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Speed Sensor Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:36:52 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Peter, > I was pondering the implementation of my motor pod (basically a 5" H x > 4.5"OD brass cylinder.) I realized that once I had raised the platter to > get the motor sheave height to a desirable position on the platter rim, > there's room under the drive "belt" in the body of the pod itself to put the > speed sensor. At the time when I developed the drive unit I also thought about this. I decided not to implement my speed sensor in this way because: - It will be hard to get the field length at the point where the ends of the stripe are joined right. - The sensor needs to be positioned at about 1mm distance from the strobe. This means that you loose the ability to move the pod in order to get the belt tension right. - The strobe pattern at the rim of the platter is more likely damaged when compared to one that is positioned under the platter. Regards Manfred Subject: [teres] Re: TerreStrobe disc Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 16:26:22 -0700 From: George Munger, George Munger To: teres@aiko.com The development of a high-resolution strobe disc progresses and I am taking this moment to comment on Thom's email. I am happy to hear that the first TerresStrobe disc prototype, which Chris tested with his controller, worked well. That first preliminary test, was produced on commercial-grade adhesive-backed semi-gloss vinyl, (bypassing the paper- test-shot test, to save us time) which will probably be the vinyl material used for a production run, which, if all continues without trouble, could be in a week or so. The next and maybe final (?) test will focus on sizing functionality of the center-hole cut, at Chris's spec of 1.81 inches. (BTW, we expect to produce some strobe discs without a precut center-hole but with cross-hairs, for those using a different spindle). The shop is working, as quickly as possible, to hasten this effort and I expect that the next test-shot will be shipped to Chris by Thursday, Aug. 3, using state-of-the-art computer-driven graphics and advertising print techniques. I will circulate details of how to apply and remove after the strobe is finalized. Stay! tuned to this channel. GM >>> "Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella" 08/01 6:42 PM >>> Firstly, thanks to George for spearheading the strobe disk effort. Chris received the first prototype yesterday and an opportunity to run a successful test before leaving town on business this morning. I was under the impression that this first disk was to be on paper in order to test the ink, to be followed (if successful) by a version on some form of matte plastic. As it turns out, this first disk was on a somewhat shiny plastic and works just fine. He has already affixed it to the bottom of his platter. I'm not certain what the next step is - a heavier plastic? A production run? When Chris gets back into town on Friday, he'll be able to report in further detail. The best news about all of this is that the printer can precision cut the center (1.75" diameter) alignment hole. More to follow from Chris when he returns. Thanks, George! Thom Subject: [teres] Assembly manual Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 14:11:02 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: Thom Mackris (h) ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Brady To: Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 1:02 PM Subject: Assembly manual Thom I put together a first cut at an assembly manual last night. Take a look and let me know what you think. http://reality.sgi.com/cbrady/audio/teres/MC_manual.doc Chris Subject: [teres] Motor Controller Assembly Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 10:18:43 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: Teres_List All, Chris has been spending his free time putting together the assembly manual for beta testing. He assembled the first controller board last night, using the manual & made some minor revisions based on his experience. Ken, Ron and I will assemble boards this weekend in order to give the manual a "final" test, and the first batch of controllers will ship shortly. Chris' travel schedule is picking up & I suspect that he will be delayed in assembling and testing boards for the hoard of respondees who do not want to assemble their boards. I was quite surprised at the number of you who did not want to assemble your own boards. I told Chris that I suspected that many of you might have been a bit intimidated by the idea of soldering the surface mount components. Chris has included a procedure for doing this, and quite honestly, unless you are suffering from *severe* caffene jitters *and* have *never* soldered a circuit board before, putting this controller together is absolutely *no* problem. Most of you live on the Joe List after all. I'll leave it to Chris to inform you as to when he expects to be able to solder all of the boards for the unanticipated flood respondents, but I suspect that those of you at the end of the line will be waiting 3 weeks to a month (just a guess). Based on this, I would recommend that those of you with some soldering experience assemble your own ... your call, of course. Cheers, Thom Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Controller Assembly Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 11:32:56 -0700 From: Alex Mitaru, Alex Mitaru To: teres@aiko.com At 10:14 AM 8/9/00 -0600, you wrote: >I'll leave it to Chris to inform you as to when he expects to be able to >solder all of the boards for the unanticipated flood respondents, but I >suspect that those of you at the end of the line will be waiting 3 weeks to >a month (just a guess). Based on this, I would recommend that those of you >with some soldering experience assemble your own ... your call, of course. OK Thom, I was asking for a finished board, but if Chris is flooded I would definitely solder my own...I can solder, but I would rather solder a 5W resistor than those damn surface mount parts...(I'm 50 and my eyes are not what they used to be... 30 years in front of a computer monitor does this to you...;-( ) So, the earlier I could get my kit, the better... Also, I own you a reply, no I didn't get any shims with my Origin Live arm, the mounting instruction were practically non-existing...and packaging was very poor, I'm surprised it made it in perfect condition...but it did... cheers, alex ____________________________________________________________________ Alexandru Mitaru alexmi@omneon.com System Architect (503) 533-0621 ext 228 Omneon Video Networks (503) 533-5811 FAX Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Controller Assembly Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 11:34:30 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com Thanks, Thom. >From the photos that Chris so graciously posted, it would appear that even for the modestly talented the project is do-able with care. What concerned me, as resident cry baby, was the testing, etc. I don't have test gear more sophisticated than a bench meter, I've always relied on my guru's. Problem is, he thinks I'm nuts, and he may be underwhelmed at the prospect of sorting out any errors on this project. However, undaunted I withdraw my request for assembly and testing and volunteer for The Kit. In the interests of getting this thing running before the rest of you pantywaists, I'll trust Chris', et al., manual writing skills and blunder ahead under my own steam. Thanks again, Peter C ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thom Mackris" Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 9:14 AM Subject: [teres] Motor Controller Assembly > I'll leave it to Chris to inform you as to when he expects to be able to > solder all of the boards for the unanticipated flood respondents, but I > suspect that those of you at the end of the line will be waiting 3 weeks to > a month (just a guess). Based on this, I would recommend that those of you > with some soldering experience assemble your own ... your call, of course. > > Cheers, > Thom > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Controller Assembly Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 11:57:06 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com I also was surprised at how many wanted assembled and tested boards. However, I really don't mind assembling the boards but as Thom pointed out, it may present a problem with delivery. Having assembled 2 boards I don't think that anyone with reasonably good soldering skills will have any problems with the assembly. However, as Peter pointed out, troubleshooting these things is a bit more challenging. If you do a good job with the assembly then it should work first time, but who knows. The bottom line is that I don't care much either way about assembling and testing the controllers, so long as no one gets to anxious about delivery. I do have one complete controller ready to ship. Who wants to be first? Chris > I'll leave it to Chris to inform you as to when he expects to be able to > solder all of the boards for the unanticipated flood respondents, but I > suspect that those of you at the end of the line will be waiting 3 weeks to > a month (just a guess). Based on this, I would recommend that those of you > with some soldering experience assemble your own ... your call, of course. > > Cheers, > Thom Subject: RE: [teres] Motor Controller Assembly Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 12:18:21 -0700 From: Fritz Moore, Fritz Moore To: teres@aiko.com Hi Chris, I would like an unassembled when your ready to ship it. I ve done some soldering but not much circuit board stuff. I might be a good one to test assembly on. Thanks, Fritz Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Controller Assembly Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 12:43:44 -0700 From: Mikhail Karlin, Mikhail Karlin To: teres@aiko.com Chris, just to make things clear - in my previous post I wanted a motor controller set unassembled, don't mind the kit you just mentioned in your post Michael Karlin On Wed, 9 Aug 2000, Chris Brady wrote: > I also was surprised at how many wanted assembled and tested boards. > However, I really don't mind assembling the boards but as Thom pointed > out, it may present a problem with delivery. > > Having assembled 2 boards I don't think that anyone with reasonably good > soldering skills will have any problems with the assembly. However, as > Peter pointed out, troubleshooting these things is a bit more challenging. > If you do a good job with the assembly then it should work first time, but > who knows. > > The bottom line is that I don't care much either way about assembling and > testing the controllers, so long as no one gets to anxious about delivery. > > I do have one complete controller ready to ship. Who wants to be first? > > Chris > > > I'll leave it to Chris to inform you as to when he expects to be able to > > solder all of the boards for the unanticipated flood respondents, but I > > suspect that those of you at the end of the line will be waiting 3 weeks to > > a month (just a guess). Based on this, I would recommend that those of you > > with some soldering experience assemble your own ... your call, of course. > > > > Cheers, > > Thom > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Controller Assembly Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 13:08:17 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Brady" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Controller Assembly > > I do have one complete controller ready to ship. Who wants to be first? > > Chris Me, me!! Peter C Subject: [teres] Rega Shims Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:15:47 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com All, So far 3 folks (IIRC) have replied and none of them received shims with their arms. Sometime tomorrow (after a few more responses). I'll e-mail Mark Baker at Origin to find out what the scoop is. Hey, Steve Z! Can you remember if you got shims when you purchased your RB300? If not, did you get them through the US distributor? I would think that a non-standard (i.e. non-Rega) installation might call for more shims than are supplied with the arm (assuming any are supplied in the first place, of course). While the Rega is a killer deal even at a significantly higher price, I still find it somewhat tacky to not furnish shims ... there you are at midnight, mounting your arm, the corner Rega shim store is closed for the day ... what's an audiomaniac to do ? Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Mitaru To: Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Controller Assembly [snip] Also, I owe you a reply, no I didn't get any shims with my Origin Live arm, the mounting instruction were practically non-existing...and packaging was very poor, I'm surprised it made it in perfect condition...but it did... cheers, alex ____________________________________________________________________ Alexandru Mitaru alexmi@omneon.com System Architect (503) 533-0621 ext 228 Omneon Video Networks (503) 533-5811 FAX Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Controller Assembly Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 16:12:43 -0700 From: Pablo Roufogalis, Pablo Roufogalis To: teres@aiko.com At 12:14 PM 8/9/00, you wrote: >I was quite surprised at the number of you who did not want to assemble your >own boards. In my case is more the testing rather than the assembly part that gives me peace of mind. I'd hate to solder the board and later discover that it doesn't work right because some component is bad or whatever. At those prices, a turnkey deal is much better and I don't mind at all waiting for it. Put mine last. Regards, Pablo Roufogalis L. proufo@cantv.net (se dice proufo atencion de cantevepuntonet) ¡Arrobas NO!. Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fam/od.htm Visite http://www.aretecnica.com/fampg.htm Subject: [teres] Motor Controller Assembly Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 20:19:19 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com I just finished a first draft of the motor and controller manual. Since the manual is subject to revision I decided to put it on the web. If you are curious and/or want to get an idea of how difficult assembly is then take a look. I am open to feedback so feel free to review and critique. http://reality.sgi.com/cbrady/audio/teres/mc_manual.html Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Controller Assembly Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 12:15:47 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com I'd be happy to test assemble a board, or happy to wait until the kits are ready later on. Though the idea of an assembled and tested board is appealing from a time standpoint (and a real bargain at $20), I suspect Chris has better things to do with his life! Best regards, Steve Z near Libby, MT USA Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Controller Assembly Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 12:34:31 -0700 From: Robert Berkman, Robert Berkman To: teres@aiko.com Me too! Bob Berkman ctcdaggett@mindspring.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Zettel To: Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Controller Assembly > I'd be happy to test assemble a board, or happy to wait until the kits are > ready later on. Though the idea of an assembled and tested board is > appealing from a time standpoint (and a real bargain at $20), I suspect > Chris has better things to do with his life! > > Best regards, > > Steve Z > near Libby, MT USA > Subject: [teres] Motor Controller Assembly Update Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 00:03:58 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: Teres_List Folks, Here's a controller assembly status update. This (Sunday nite, late) is the first opportunity I've had to get online. New house chores & all that Anyhow, if I miss anything, I'll follow up from work tomorrow. I got about 75% through the assembly of the controller board on Friday evening. I haven't had the opportunity to sit down again to complete it. Chris will be updating the instructions based on my feedback. Before I relate my experiences, a brief background on my soldering skills is in order so that my comments have some context. I haven't done a lot of PC board work. Most of my soldering has been speaker crossovers, interconnects, and hardwired tube electronics. As far as PC board work, I assembled an electronic Keyboard kit for Joan back in the early 80's as well as a couple of guitar effects boxes. I've swapped out the odd cap here and there, and have never been intimidated working on a PC board. The controller board, however is *tightly* packed and is definitely a degree of difficulty above that which I've worked on. Due to the small size of the board, Ron was unable to silkscreen parts labels on the board so locating the parts was a challenge for me. Complicating matters, the stuffing guide is a bit vague and requires you to do a bit of educated guessing. Key to the assembly is to fit the obvious parts in order to locate the others. Locating the parts was my main problem. Chris will be addressing this (see below). Chris was a bit surprised to hear this news from me as all of this is second nature to him - he used to solder surface mount components when he worked as Tektronics. It's sometimes difficult to grade the difficulty of something which you're so good at. I'm reminded of when I take a flatlander bicycling (I'm a "roadie") up one of the nearby canyons - I think I'm softpedaling and yet find myself unintentionally leaving them wheezing in my wake. I suggested to Chris that photos of unstuffed boards go up on the website for reference. An unstuffed board comes in really handy. I had Igor's on hand and I checked it several times because I thought that I had bridged across two traces. In both instances, it ended up that the bridges were designed into the board. The board is so tight, that you'd have a hard time knowing this unless you had a naked board for reference. Chris agreed, and also suggested photos of stuffed boards too. I think that assuming that the photos are of reasonable resolution, the degree of difficulty of this task should drop considerably. Having said that, I'll relate my experiences. Keep in mind that I did not have the benefit of seeing a stuffed board but did have the benefit of a couple of phone calls to Chris. In spite of this, my experiences were mixed, but generally good. I think with my suggestions, and those of the other guinea pigs, a good percentage of you should find this to be a comfortably challenging assembly. The surface mounts are not all that tough, although I was a bit confused from the stuffing guide as to where they got placed. Like standard soldering points, there are breaks in the traces where these components get located, but being used to seeing holes in the board at these points, the spots don't quite register as being soldering points. One pair of surface mounts bridges the gaps in two traces that look like a pair of brackets, or a square with two openings: [ ] They go across the two gaps. It took a phone call to Chris to feel confident about placing them there The board is *tight*. I haven't soldered on a board this small before, and even though I've reconciled myself to using reading glasses (having turned 49), it was still tough to see. I thought I might be spilling solder off the pads and bridging across onto other traces. When I took out my trusty analog tool (a magnifying glass I use for dialing in my cartridge overhang) & realized that what I was seeing was the slight glaze that surrounds the pad - the joints were fine. I noted above, a couple of instances where there were intentional bridges (very tight) and reference to a naked board proved useful. So ... my preliminary feedeback? I'd guess that there are many of you who would opt to have Chris assemble the board for you. Chris set the price at a fairly neutral point - one where he isn't chomping at the bit to do it, but at the same time a price where he won't grow resentful after assembling the 3rd board. With my skills, I wouldn't do it for double the cost! I put about 3 hours into my board, and as I mentioned, I'm about 75% through. Admittedly, this is my first assembly of this board. I don't have resistor codes memorized (and don't trust myself to distinguish reliably between red/orange or brown/black), I measured each resistor prior to assembling. This also contributed to my assembly time. So ... there you have it. I'll read this in the morning from work and see what I left out. Cheers, Thom Subject: Motor Controller Assembly Update Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 00:08:20 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: Teres_List Folks, Here's a controller assembly status update. This (Sunday nite, late) is the first opportunity I've had to get online. New house chores & all that Anyhow, if I miss anything, I'll follow up from work tomorrow. I got about 75% through the assembly of the controller board on Friday evening. I haven't had the opportunity to sit down again to complete it. Chris will be updating the instructions based on my feedback. Before I relate my experiences, a brief background on my soldering skills is in order so that my comments have some context. I haven't done a lot of PC board work. Most of my soldering has been speaker crossovers, interconnects, and hardwired tube electronics. As far as PC board work, I assembled an electronic Keyboard kit for Joan back in the early 80's as well as a couple of guitar effects boxes. I've swapped out the odd cap here and there, and have never been intimidated working on a PC board. The controller board, however is *tightly* packed and is definitely a degree of difficulty above that which I've worked on. Due to the small size of the board, Ron was unable to silkscreen parts labels on the board so locating the parts was a challenge for me. Complicating matters, the stuffing guide is a bit vague and requires you to do a bit of educated guessing. Key to the assembly is to fit the obvious parts in order to locate the others. Locating the parts was my main problem. Chris will be addressing this (see below). Chris was a bit surprised to hear this news from me as all of this is second nature to him - he used to solder surface mount components when he worked as Tektronics. It's sometimes difficult to grade the difficulty of something which you're so good at. I'm reminded of when I take a flatlander bicycling (I'm a "roadie") up one of the nearby canyons - I think I'm softpedaling and yet find myself unintentionally leaving them wheezing in my wake. I suggested to Chris that photos of unstuffed boards go up on the website for reference. An unstuffed board comes in really handy. I had Igor's on hand and I checked it several times because I thought that I had bridged across two traces. In both instances, it ended up that the bridges were designed into the board. The board is so tight, that you'd have a hard time knowing this unless you had a naked board for reference. Chris agreed, and also suggested photos of stuffed boards too. I think that assuming that the photos are of reasonable resolution, the degree of difficulty of this task should drop considerably. Having said that, I'll relate my experiences. Keep in mind that I did not have the benefit of seeing a stuffed board but did have the benefit of a couple of phone calls to Chris. In spite of this, my experiences were mixed, but generally good. I think with my suggestions, and those of the other guinea pigs, a good percentage of you should find this to be a comfortably challenging assembly. The surface mounts are not all that tough, although I was a bit confused from the stuffing guide as to where they got placed. Like standard soldering points, there are breaks in the traces where these components get located, but being used to seeing holes in the board at these points, the spots don't quite register as being soldering points. One pair of surface mounts bridges the gaps in two traces that look like a pair of brackets, or a square with two openings: [ ] They go across the two gaps. It took a phone call to Chris to feel confident about placing them there The board is *tight*. I haven't soldered on a board this small before, and even though I've reconciled myself to using reading glasses (having turned 49), it was still tough to see. I thought I might be spilling solder off the pads and bridging across onto other traces. When I took out my trusty analog tool (a magnifying glass I use for dialing in my cartridge overhang) & realized that what I was seeing was the slight glaze that surrounds the pad - the joints were fine. I noted above, a couple of instances where there were intentional bridges (very tight) and reference to a naked board proved useful. So ... my preliminary feedeback? I'd guess that there are many of you who would opt to have Chris assemble the board for you. Chris set the price at a fairly neutral point - one where he isn't chomping at the bit to do it, but at the same time a price where he won't grow resentful after assembling the 3rd board. With my skills, I wouldn't do it for double the cost! I put about 3 hours into my board, and as I mentioned, I'm about 75% through. Admittedly, this is my first assembly of this board. I don't have resistor codes memorized (and don't trust myself to distinguish reliably between red/orange or brown/black), I measured each resistor prior to assembling. This also contributed to my assembly time. So ... there you have it. I'll read this in the morning from work and see what I left out. Cheers, Thom Subject: [teres] Well, this sucks the big one! Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:53:53 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: Teres Hi folks, I just completed and hooked up my controller. Interstingly enough, it seems to be frying itself. Shit! R20 & R21 get really hot to the touch. And I guess I let a little smoke out of something - those resistors, I think. It didn't come immediately, but after the little devil was on for 30 seconds or so. A fairly solid short somewhere. I guess pulling the VR out of the circuit is a good first step to locating it. I think I'll use Dan the Cat's paw to check out those resistors this time. Well, my soldering iron is hot and beckons, "Come hither..." Stay tuned for further adventures of "Fryboy - the alien airman, from..." Hasta luego, Paul Here kitty, kitty. Want some canned tuna? good kitty! good Dan! Subject: Re: [teres] Well, this sucks the big one! Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:04:22 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com Paul, If the problem is downstream from the VR then it should be getting very hot also. Any chance the the diodes or the big cap C7 are in backwards? Please let me know if I can help. Chris > > Hi folks, > I just completed and hooked up my controller. Interstingly enough, it seems > to be frying itself. Shit! > > R20 & R21 get really hot to the touch. And I guess I let a little smoke out > of something - those resistors, I think. It didn't come immediately, but > after the little devil was on for 30 seconds or so. A fairly solid short > somewhere. I guess pulling the VR out of the circuit is a good first step to > locating it. I think I'll use Dan the Cat's paw to check out those resistors > this time. > > Well, my soldering iron is hot and beckons, "Come hither..." > Stay tuned for further adventures of "Fryboy - the alien airman, from..." > Hasta luego, > Paul > > Here kitty, kitty. > Want some canned tuna? > good kitty! good Dan! Subject: RE: [teres] Well, this sucks the big one! Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 18:00:21 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com Hi Chris, It occurs to me... I have wired the secondaries of the transformer to give me 7-G-7 vac. I don't recall reading that this is right. Was this an unwarrented assumption in my part? Tell me should those secondaries be wired in parallel. Now that I look at the 7805, it seems a good bet. In the mean time I'll continue to investigate (translate to look for shorts) Cheers, Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Chris Brady > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 3:03 PM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Well, this sucks the big one! > > Snip... Interstingly enough, it seems to be frying itself. Shit! > > snip some more > Subject: [teres] Controller Assembly Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:24:14 -0700 From: Ron Welborne, Ron Welborne To: teres I assembled the motor controller board this evening. Everything went together well. Assembly time for me was approximately 2 hours. I have not tested it yet because I don't have a platter ready to spin. For Chris: For steps 9, 10 and 11 in the instructions you should identify the pin # orientation for connector J3. (i.e. which is pin #1?) Ron Welborne Labs wlabs@ix.netcom.com ph: 303.470.6585 fax: 303.791.5783 website --------------- www.welbornelabs.com ----------------- Subject: RE: [teres] Well, this sucks the big one! Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 00:51:50 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Paul, >Tell me should those secondaries be wired in parallel. Now that I look at >the 7805, it seems a good bet. The transformer secondaries are meant to be connected in series to give 14Vac. Unfortunately I seem to have missed your first report. Tell me about the (mis)behaviour you are experiencing and I will try to help. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Some progress... Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 01:15:06 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Paul, >Well, removing the ground between the x-former and the controller and >putting in the switch and LEDs at least has my motor spinning. It seems that >the only control I have over it's speed is by varying the pot, R-14. Sounds like the controler sets the output voltage to the maximum. This is the case if there are no pluses from the sensor. Can you start/stop the controler by operating the bushbutton? If this works then we know that the microprocessor is running. >I only used silver-satin modem cable between the sensor >and J-3. Maybe shielded really means shielded! I use unshielded cable to connect the sensor for two years now without problems. You can do a first test of the sensor by connecting a dc voltage meter between pins 2 and 3 of J4. When you slowly move the platter you should see the voltage change a few hundred millivolts as the black and white fields pass by the sensor. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: RE: [teres] Controller Assembly Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 05:22:34 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com Hi Ron, On the print out of the parts orientation sheet, I assumed that the little dot in the lower left corner indicated pin 1. Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of Ron > Welborne > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 12:21 AM > To: teres > Subject: [teres] Controller Assembly > > > > I assembled the motor controller board this evening. Everything went > together well. Assembly time for me was approximately 2 hours. > > I have not tested it yet because I don't have a platter ready to spin. > > > For Chris: > > For steps 9, 10 and 11 in the instructions you should identify the pin # > orientation for connector J3. (i.e. which is pin #1?) > > > Ron > > Welborne Labs > wlabs@ix.netcom.com > ph: 303.470.6585 > fax: 303.791.5783 > website --------------- www.welbornelabs.com ----------------- > > Subject: RE: [teres] Some progress... Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 05:39:39 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com Hi Manfred, Chris and all, Yes, the push button starts and stops the motor and the red LEDs both on the board and connected to J-3 light. By the way, does the green LED light when the platter is spinning at the proper speed or does it indicate 45 rpm. How do we switch to 45 rpm. Mind you, I'm just curious, I don't own even one 45. Thanks for the help, Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Manfred Huber > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 3:13 AM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Some progress... > > > Paul, > > >Well, removing the ground between the x-former and the controller and > >putting in the switch and LEDs at least has my motor spinning. > It seems that > >the only control I have over it's speed is by varying the pot, R-14. > > Sounds like the controler sets the output voltage to the maximum. > This is the case if there are no pluses from the sensor. > > Can you start/stop the controler by operating the bushbutton? > If this works then we know that the microprocessor is running. > > >I only used silver-satin modem cable between the sensor > >and J-3. Maybe shielded really means shielded! > > I use unshielded cable to connect the sensor > for two years now without problems. > > You can do a first test of the sensor by connecting a dc voltage meter > between pins 2 and 3 of J4. When you slowly move the platter you > should see > the voltage change a few hundred millivolts as the black and white fields > pass by the sensor. > > Regards > Manfred > > > ------------------ > Manfred Huber > MHuber@t-online.de > ------------------ > > Subject: RE: [teres] Some progress... Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 06:48:43 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Paul, >Yes, the push button starts and stops the motor and the red LEDs both on the >board and connected to J-3 light. So it looks like both the microcontroller and the voltage regulator circuit work properly. To me it looks like you have a problem with the speed sensor. How does your implementation of the strobe disk look? What materials and printing technique did you use? It is possible that something with the connection of the sensor to the pcb is wrong. I would not worry about the type of cable used. Look for wrong connections / shorts / open circuits etc. What is the distance of sensor and strobe disk? Set it to about 1mm. >By the way, does the green LED light when the platter is spinning at the >proper speed or does it indicate 45 rpm. Yes, the green LED indicates nominal speed, be it 33 or 45. If everything is ok then you end up having the green LED on and at the same time the red LED is constantly off. >How do we switch to 45 rpm. Mind you, I'm just curious, I don't own even one 45. Switching speed is done by pressing and holding the pushbutton for about 1 sec. while the table is spinning. Usually you have the table spinning at one speed. Green LED is on, red LED is off. Now you press and hold the pushbutton. At first nothing happens but after about 1 sec the controller switches to the other speed. At this time it detects that the platter speed is not ok and switches off the green led and activates the red LED. This is your feedback for knowing that you have pressed the pushbutton long enough and now can release it. After the platter has stabilized at the new speed the red led goes off and the green led goes on. There is no indicator for 33/45. Just look at the platter and you will know if it is running at 33 or 45. >Thanks for the help, You are welcome. I can't wait for the reports of the "controller guinea pigs" to come in. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Controller Assembly Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:01:18 -0700 From: ron welborne, ron welborne To: teres@aiko.com Yes, the dot indicates pin #1 but the instructions should say this so you didn't have to assume it. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Croft To: Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 5:15 AM Subject: RE: [teres] Controller Assembly > Hi Ron, > On the print out of the parts orientation sheet, I assumed that the little > dot in the lower left corner indicated pin 1. > Paul > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of Ron > > Welborne > > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 12:21 AM > > To: teres > > Subject: [teres] Controller Assembly > > > > > > > > I assembled the motor controller board this evening. Everything went > > together well. Assembly time for me was approximately 2 hours. > > > > I have not tested it yet because I don't have a platter ready to spin. > > > > > > For Chris: > > > > For steps 9, 10 and 11 in the instructions you should identify the pin # > > orientation for connector J3. (i.e. which is pin #1?) > > > > > > Ron > > > > Welborne Labs > > wlabs@ix.netcom.com > > ph: 303.470.6585 > > fax: 303.791.5783 > > website --------------- www.welbornelabs.com ----------------- > > > > > Subject: RE: [teres] Some progress... Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:19:33 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com Well maybe I spoke to soon. The red light stays constantly on and the green one never illuminates. Yet, the darned thing seems to be operating fine. If I click the button or give the platter a spin, it starts and the red light comes on. If I hold down the button for one second, it switches speed. both up and down. If I click the button momentarily, it turns the beast off. I'm just using a piece of fishing string to couple the motor and the platter. Also, everything is in a lashed up assembly thrown together on the moment. I wonder if perhaps the platter is slipping. I tried pulling the string tighter (pulling the motor away from the platter) but that didn't seem to make a difference. Hmm, a quick strobe, that's one thing to look at. How fast is it really going. Cheers, Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Manfred Huber snip... > > You are welcome. > I can't wait for the reports of the "controller guinea pigs" to come in. > > Regards > Manfred > > > ------------------ > Manfred Huber > MHuber@t-online.de > ------------------ > > Subject: Re: [teres] Some progress... Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:41:23 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Paul, > Yet, the darned thing seems to be operating fine. Good news, isn't it > If I click the button or > give the platter a spin, it starts and the red light comes on. If I hold > down the button for one second, it switches speed. both up and down. If I > click the button momentarily, it turns the beast off. Does the red led come on at the time the motor is started or a few seconds later? If it comes on later then the red led is at the position where the green led should be and vice versa. If the green loed does not even flash for short durations then it may be soldered with the wrong polarity. (connector involved?) To verfy the function of the green led you can remove the string and turn the platter by hand. By slowly accelerating the platter you should be able to find a point where the green led starts glowing. Regards Manfred Subject: [teres] Controller Construction Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 05:31:05 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: Teres Hi folks, Well, like I said, putting together the controller was pretty straight forward. I used some old Duco cement to glue the SMT caps to the board for soldering. I think I should have invested in new glue. The Duco cement seemed to skin over immediately and was hard to put just a dot on the board. Under some caps I got too much and it made an ugly brown goop when I soldered the caps. Also, one of the caps came loose and stuck to the soldering iron. I had a heck of a time scraping it off quickly with the exacto knife. I thought I had destroyed it because I couldn't see the metal connection on one end. It turned out it was just covered with brown goop and this scraped off. I hope these things aren't too heat sensitive. Perhaps if Chris threw in one or two extra caps of each value, it would leave a little margin for error. These little suckers are hard to see and easy to drop on the carpet! Fortunately, I was able to avoid that fate this time. Under Circuit Board Assembly, step 9 says install diodes D3-D5. I believe this should read D3-D6. The + sign on the parts layout for C7 is misplaced. If one looks at the schematic, it is easy to figure out which lead goes where. But, it would be good if the diagram was corrected by moving the + sign 90 degrees clockwise. Maybe I am just whining and moaning, but... Perhaps step 4 under Setup and Installation could be clarified. The conductor with white insulation is kind of translucent, silver colored. Between that and the table that says connect pin 2 to ground, well, it was after midnight at that point... If one looks at the schematic it is obvious that no ground is connected at pin two on the board. Two of the metal screws that mount the board to the end plate, either touch device pins or come too close to ignore. Some fiber washers would be nice here. I put the screws through small squares of electrical tape for now. I drilled a hole through a piece of MDF to mount my platter and bearing. I then routed a slot from the side of the MDF to the center hole to provide a slide for the speed sensor and piece of perf board it is mounted on. The slot is about 3/16" deep by 5/8" wide. This leaves the sensor about flush with the top of the MDF and thus the gap equals the distance between the top of the MDF and the bottom of the platter. Speaking of the strobe... I used strobo.tif; I believe that Manfred graciously supplied this. If anyone needs a copy, let me know. I bought some Elmer's Craft Bond spray glue at Wal-mart. It is supposedly temporary or permanent. I printed the strobe directly to plain paper using a laserjet and glued it to the platter with Craft Bond. This brings me to my only problem. While the motor/controller seem to be working perfectly, the LEDs don't. The red one stays on solidly, and the green one only flickers very dimly. Two possible causes that come to mind is the spacing of the sensor from the strobe and the strobe itself. Is it perhaps mis-centered on the platter or is the glue/paper not not meeting the reflectivity requirements? Well, these will keep me busy for a bit... In the mean time, I attempted to mount my new Denon 103 in my Origin Live modified Rega 250b. Alas, it doesn't fit. Yet. Where's that hammer? When the tonearm wires are connected, the wires and cartridge bump into the heatshrink around the wires that disappear into the tube. Its like the internal wire mod is sticking too far out the front of the tonearm. I have an email into Origin Live to see if they have any suggestions. If any of you do, please, let me know! I suspect the solution will involve carefully cutting back that heatshrink. Hmm, I thought that was what we paid OL to do. Well, I'd better be getting to work. Oops, the dentist, then work. For joy! Cheers, Paul Subject: [teres] The Teres Strobe Disk - Seven steps to heaven Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 07:27:15 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Dear Terestrials! The 'early bird' Teres builders need a strobe disk right now but to the best of my knowledge the final design is not yet available. So here is another attempt by me to describe a procedure to reliably get a strobe pattern on the Teres platter. I ended up with this procedure only after a few failures. Every step described has it's reason. Please follow the instructions and you will end up with a useable strobe pattern. I use this "sticky tape method" because: - The tape is dry and does not weaken the structure of the paper by wetting it. - The tape reinforces the paper - The acrylic glue sticks very good to the acrylic platter - The glue is very durable - The tape can be completely removed from the platter. - The disk can be easily centered on the platter. After centering is done the position is fixed by pressing the tape to the platter. So here we go: Step 1: Used relatively heavy white paper for the strobe disk, like 160 g/m^2. According to a table in my printer manual this translates into an US bond weight of 43 lb. Step 2: Print the pattern from the file strobo.tif to the paper using a laser printer. Verify that you printing software does not fool you by interpolating the strobe pattern to a different size. The diameter of the disk should be nearly exactly 147mm. Measure the diameter at a few different angles, it should always measure the same (+-0.1mm) Step 3: After printing is done the back side of the paper is *completely* covered with sticky tape. Use a type of tape that is sticky on both sides - a thin plastic foil with what looks like acrylic glue. This stuff is also used to bond carpets to the floor. This kind of tape is about 50mm wide so you will need 3 runs of tape to cover the whole back side of the disk. Do not overlap the tape but place it side by side with as small a gap as possible. The protective cover on the tape is *not* removed in this step. Step 4: Next use a compass that is equipped with a scalpel blade to do four circular cuts: 1. d=160mm, cut all way though the disc, tape and cover. 2. d=145mm, cut from the back side through the protective cover, the tape and the paper. The cut through the paper is not done completely so that there is still some connection of the inner and outer part of the disc. 3. d=125mm, cut in the same way as (2) 4. d=diameter of center hole of the platter. Cut all way though the disc, tape and cover. This is gives a hole in the center of the strobe disc that can be used to align the center of the disc and the platter. Step 5: After cutting is done remove the ring of protective cover between cut 2 (145mm) and cut 3 (125mm). The remaining cover is not removed! Step 6: Put the strobe on the platter and center it by hand. At this point in time do not press it to the platter so the glue does not stick. Next use a stripe of paper about 10cm wide and 50cm long and make a roll from it. Insert this roll into the holes of the the platter and the strobe disk. When letting loose the roll it expands to the diameter of the hole and centers the strobe. After centering press the disk to the platter. Do not rub! You don't want to remove the toner! Step 7: Now all material on the inside of cut #3 and on the outside of cut #2 can be removed. All that remains on the platter is a ring with an inner diameter of 125mm and an outer diameter of 145mm. That's all. Take pride in your workmanship and work as precisely as you can. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Controller Construction Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 07:27:18 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Paul, I won't comment on problems with the PCB as I have not seen the pcb up to now. >This brings me to my only problem. While the motor/controller seem to be >working perfectly, the LEDs don't. The red one stays on solidly, and the >green one only flickers very dimly. Now this clears up things quite a bit. I'm nearly 100% shure that you have a problem with the strobe disk. Everything else seems to be ok with your controller. >Two possible causes that come to mind is the spacing of the sensor from >the strobe This is not hard. Set it to 1mm and be done. >and the strobe itself. >Is it perhaps mis-centered on the platter This is most likely what happened. I will once again open a new thread on the strobe disk. If you follow my instructions you will end up with a strobe pattern with very good properties. >or is the glue/paper not not meeting the reflectivity requirements? I don't think there is a problem with reflectivity in your setup. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Controller Construction Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:49:32 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Paul, Thanks (on Chris' behalf) for your feedback. I caught a few of the items you noted, and would agree with you that with the changes you and Ron have suggested, combined with high-res pictures of stuffed and un-stuffed boards, that at least half of the members of this group should have no problem assembling the boards. I didn't get to the point of hooking up the torroid yet (darned moving related tasks), but had the question in the back of my mind as to whether to use all or half of the taps. I suppose a check of the schematic would have told me that, but as I mentioned, I hadn't gotten there yet. Regarding the surface mount components, I found some plain ol' carpenters wood glue worked fine - a little dab 'l do ya. When I heated up the component, it slid around a little, but it was easy to re-position as it was to mis-position. I don't know if your problem with the sticking to the soldering iron had to do with the cement you used or if your iron wasn't wiped off and tinned, but I didn't experience this. I suppose, to be on the safe side, we can relate our experiences with glue as follows: model cement & wood glue: o.k., Duco cement - a big maybe. Of course, when I finish the job, I'll confirm that I really did the job correctly Regarding tonearms - I can sympathize with your plight. After all of these years, you'd think that someone would have arrived at some form of standards: cartridge depth, horizontal stylus to mounting hole distance, pin diameters, etc. When I had an arm which had a fairly tight distance between the rear of the cartridge and the beginning of the theadshell (Linn Akito), I would first attach the pins to the cartridge and then screw the cartridge in position. I was unable to maneuver the pins into place when the cartridge was mounted on the headshell. I'm guessing you may have considered this, but just in case you were brain-dead from working on the controller, I thought I'd mention it. While we're in tonearm gripe mode, I have yet to find a heavy enough cartridge for my Audiocraft arm. Every cartridge I've tried on this arm requires a bit of extra weight at the headshell. For my Benz, I made a nice aluminum shim in the shape of the cartridge. I suppose that the upside of this is that the counterweight is very close to the pivot point which is supposed to be an advantage. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Croft To: Teres Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 5:23 AM Subject: [teres] Controller Construction Hi folks, Well, like I said, putting together the controller was pretty straight forward. I used some old Duco cement to glue the SMT caps to the board for soldering. I think I should have invested in new glue. The Duco cement seemed to skin over immediately and was hard to put just a dot on the board. Under some caps I got too much and it made an ugly brown goop when I soldered the caps. Also, one of the caps came loose and stuck to the soldering iron. I had a heck of a time scraping it off quickly with the exacto knife. I thought I had destroyed it because I couldn't see the metal connection on one end. It turned out it was just covered with brown goop and this scraped off. I hope these things aren't too heat sensitive. Perhaps if Chris threw in one or two extra caps of each value, it would leave a little margin for error. These little suckers are hard to see and easy to drop on the carpet! Fortunately, I was able to avoid that fate this time. Under Circuit Board Assembly, step 9 says install diodes D3-D5. I believe this should read D3-D6. The + sign on the parts layout for C7 is misplaced. If one looks at the schematic, it is easy to figure out which lead goes where. But, it would be good if the diagram was corrected by moving the + sign 90 degrees clockwise. Maybe I am just whining and moaning, but... Perhaps step 4 under Setup and Installation could be clarified. The conductor with white insulation is kind of translucent, silver colored. Between that and the table that says connect pin 2 to ground, well, it was after midnight at that point... If one looks at the schematic it is obvious that no ground is connected at pin two on the board. Two of the metal screws that mount the board to the end plate, either touch device pins or come too close to ignore. Some fiber washers would be nice here. I put the screws through small squares of electrical tape for now. I drilled a hole through a piece of MDF to mount my platter and bearing. I then routed a slot from the side of the MDF to the center hole to provide a slide for the speed sensor and piece of perf board it is mounted on. The slot is about 3/16" deep by 5/8" wide. This leaves the sensor about flush with the top of the MDF and thus the gap equals the distance between the top of the MDF and the bottom of the platter. Speaking of the strobe... I used strobo.tif; I believe that Manfred graciously supplied this. If anyone needs a copy, let me know. I bought some Elmer's Craft Bond spray glue at Wal-mart. It is supposedly temporary or permanent. I printed the strobe directly to plain paper using a laserjet and glued it to the platter with Craft Bond. This brings me to my only problem. While the motor/controller seem to be working perfectly, the LEDs don't. The red one stays on solidly, and the green one only flickers very dimly. Two possible causes that come to mind is the spacing of the sensor from the strobe and the strobe itself. Is it perhaps mis-centered on the platter or is the glue/paper not not meeting the reflectivity requirements? Well, these will keep me busy for a bit... In the mean time, I attempted to mount my new Denon 103 in my Origin Live modified Rega 250b. Alas, it doesn't fit. Yet. Where's that hammer? When the tonearm wires are connected, the wires and cartridge bump into the heatshrink around the wires that disappear into the tube. Its like the internal wire mod is sticking too far out the front of the tonearm. I have an email into Origin Live to see if they have any suggestions. If any of you do, please, let me know! I suspect the solution will involve carefully cutting back that heatshrink. Hmm, I thought that was what we paid OL to do. Well, I'd better be getting to work. Oops, the dentist, then work. For joy! Cheers, Paul Subject: Re: [teres] Controller Construction Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:21:28 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com Paul, Thanks for the feedback. > Also, one of the caps came loose and stuck to the soldering iron. I had a > heck of a time scraping it off quickly with the exacto knife. I thought I > had destroyed it because I couldn't see the metal connection on one end. It > turned out it was just covered with brown goop and this scraped off. I hope > these things aren't too heat sensitive. The SMT caps are quite ruggged and should not be affected by the heat. > Perhaps if Chris threw in one or two extra caps of each value, it would > leave a little margin for error. These little suckers are hard to see and > easy to drop on the carpet! Fortunately, I was able to avoid that fate this > time. A good idea, they are cheap, but I did not order enough extras. Next time! > Under Circuit Board Assembly, step 9 says install diodes D3-D5. I believe > this should read D3-D6. Right, I'll fix it. > The + sign on the parts layout for C7 is misplaced. If one looks at the > schematic, it is easy to figure out which lead goes where. But, it would be > good if the diagram was corrected by moving the + sign 90 degrees clockwise. Right again. > Maybe I am just whining and moaning, but... Perhaps step 4 under Setup and > Installation could be clarified. The conductor with white insulation is kind > of translucent, silver colored. Between that and the table that says connect > pin 2 to ground, well, it was after midnight at that point... If one looks > at the schematic it is obvious that no ground is connected at pin two on the > board. I'll make it more clear. > Two of the metal screws that mount the board to the end plate, either touch > device pins or come too close to ignore. Some fiber washers would be nice > here. I put the screws through small squares of electrical tape for now. I was somewhat concerned about this and should have added a note in the instructions. Two of the screws come close to the traces but do not touch. I think that they will be OK without washers. However, one of the screws does touch the traces, but this one just happens to be ground. If I had though ahead I would have suggested that Ron put a trace around this screw so as to provide a good ground connection to the motor mounting plate. If for some reason you do not want the plate grounded then use a fiber washer. But what I suggest is to make a wire loop around the screw hole to make a better ground connection. > I drilled a hole through a piece of MDF to mount my platter and bearing. I > then routed a slot from the side of the MDF to the center hole to provide a > slide for the speed sensor and piece of perf board it is mounted on. The > slot is about 3/16" deep by 5/8" wide. This leaves the sensor about flush > with the top of the MDF and thus the gap equals the distance between the top > of the MDF and the bottom of the platter. Nice idea, but the sensor needs to be closer to the strobe disk. > This brings me to my only problem. While the motor/controller seem to be > working perfectly, the LEDs don't. The red one stays on solidly, and the > green one only flickers very dimly. Two possible causes that come to mind is > the spacing of the sensor from the strobe and the strobe itself. Is it > perhaps mis-centered on the platter or is the glue/paper not not meeting the > reflectivity requirements? Well, these will keep me busy for a bit... I think that Manfred has addressed this. It does sound like a problem with centering the strobe disk. Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Controller Construction Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:46:04 -0700 From: ron welborne, ron welborne To: teres@aiko.com I used a VERY tiny dab of super glue and the capacitors didn't float while soldering them. Ron Welborne Labs wlabs@ix.netcom.com ph: 303.470.6585 fax: 303.791.5783 website --------------- www.welbornelabs.com ----------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Thom Mackris To: Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 12:38 PM Subject: Re: [teres] Controller Construction > Paul, > > Thanks (on Chris' behalf) for your feedback. I caught a few of the items > you noted, and would agree with you that with the changes you and Ron have > suggested, combined with high-res pictures of stuffed and un-stuffed boards, > that at least half of the members of this group should have no problem > assembling the boards. > > I didn't get to the point of hooking up the torroid yet (darned moving > related tasks), but had the question in the back of my mind as to whether to > use all or half of the taps. I suppose a check of the schematic would have > told me that, but as I mentioned, I hadn't gotten there yet. > > Regarding the surface mount components, I found some plain ol' carpenters > wood glue worked fine - a little dab 'l do ya. When I heated up the > component, it slid around a little, but it was easy to re-position as it was > to mis-position. I don't know if your problem with the sticking to the > soldering iron had to do with the cement you used or if your iron wasn't > wiped off and tinned, but I didn't experience this. I suppose, to be on the > safe side, we can relate our experiences with glue as follows: model cement > & wood glue: o.k., Duco cement - a big maybe. Of course, when I finish the > job, I'll confirm that I really did the job correctly > > Regarding tonearms - I can sympathize with your plight. After all of these > years, you'd think that someone would have arrived at some form of > standards: cartridge depth, horizontal stylus to mounting hole distance, pin > diameters, etc. When I had an arm which had a fairly tight distance between > the rear of the cartridge and the beginning of the theadshell (Linn Akito), > I would first attach the pins to the cartridge and then screw the cartridge > in position. I was unable to maneuver the pins into place when the > cartridge was mounted on the headshell. I'm guessing you may have > considered this, but just in case you were brain-dead from working on the > controller, I thought I'd mention it. > > While we're in tonearm gripe mode, I have yet to find a heavy enough > cartridge for my Audiocraft arm. Every cartridge I've tried on this arm > requires a bit of extra weight at the headshell. For my Benz, I made a nice > aluminum shim in the shape of the cartridge. I suppose that the upside of > this is that the counterweight is very close to the pivot point which is > supposed to be an advantage. > > Cheers, > Thom > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul Croft > To: Teres > Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 5:23 AM > Subject: [teres] Controller Construction > > > Hi folks, > > Well, like I said, putting together the controller was pretty straight > forward. > > I used some old Duco cement to glue the SMT caps to the board for soldering. > I think I should have invested in new glue. The Duco cement seemed to skin > over immediately and was hard to put just a dot on the board. Under some > caps I got too much and it made an ugly brown goop when I soldered the caps. > > Also, one of the caps came loose and stuck to the soldering iron. I had a > heck of a time scraping it off quickly with the exacto knife. I thought I > had destroyed it because I couldn't see the metal connection on one end. It > turned out it was just covered with brown goop and this scraped off. I hope > these things aren't too heat sensitive. > > Perhaps if Chris threw in one or two extra caps of each value, it would > leave a little margin for error. These little suckers are hard to see and > easy to drop on the carpet! Fortunately, I was able to avoid that fate this > time. > > Under Circuit Board Assembly, step 9 says install diodes D3-D5. I believe > this should read D3-D6. > > The + sign on the parts layout for C7 is misplaced. If one looks at the > schematic, it is easy to figure out which lead goes where. But, it would be > good if the diagram was corrected by moving the + sign 90 degrees clockwise. > > Maybe I am just whining and moaning, but... Perhaps step 4 under Setup and > Installation could be clarified. The conductor with white insulation is kind > of translucent, silver colored. Between that and the table that says connect > pin 2 to ground, well, it was after midnight at that point... If one looks > at the schematic it is obvious that no ground is connected at pin two on the > board. > > Two of the metal screws that mount the board to the end plate, either touch > device pins or come too close to ignore. Some fiber washers would be nice > here. I put the screws through small squares of electrical tape for now. > > I drilled a hole through a piece of MDF to mount my platter and bearing. I > then routed a slot from the side of the MDF to the center hole to provide a > slide for the speed sensor and piece of perf board it is mounted on. The > slot is about 3/16" deep by 5/8" wide. This leaves the sensor about flush > with the top of the MDF and thus the gap equals the distance between the top > of the MDF and the bottom of the platter. > > Speaking of the strobe... I used strobo.tif; I believe that Manfred > graciously supplied this. If anyone needs a copy, let me know. I bought some > Elmer's Craft Bond spray glue at Wal-mart. It is supposedly temporary or > permanent. I printed the strobe directly to plain paper using a laserjet and > glued it to the platter with Craft Bond. > > This brings me to my only problem. While the motor/controller seem to be > working perfectly, the LEDs don't. The red one stays on solidly, and the > green one only flickers very dimly. Two possible causes that come to mind is > the spacing of the sensor from the strobe and the strobe itself. Is it > perhaps mis-centered on the platter or is the glue/paper not not meeting the > reflectivity requirements? Well, these will keep me busy for a bit... > > In the mean time, I attempted to mount my new Denon 103 in my Origin Live > modified Rega 250b. Alas, it doesn't fit. Yet. Where's that hammer? When the > tonearm wires are connected, the wires and cartridge bump into the > heatshrink around the wires that disappear into the tube. Its like the > internal wire mod is sticking too far out the front of the tonearm. I have > an email into Origin Live to see if they have any suggestions. If any of you > do, please, let me know! I suspect the solution will involve carefully > cutting back that heatshrink. Hmm, I thought that was what we paid OL to do. > > Well, I'd better be getting to work. Oops, the dentist, then work. For joy! > Cheers, > Paul > > > > Subject: Re: [teres] Controller Construction Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:14:28 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Dear Terestrials, > I used a VERY tiny dab of super glue and the capacitors didn't float while > soldering them. Here is what I do when soldering discrete SMD components: 1. Using a soldering iron I apply a tiny bit of solder to just one of the soldering pads. 2. Next I use tweezers to pick up the component to be soldered. 3. Then I put the component to it's place on the pcb. 4. While still holding the component at it's place with the tweezers I once again melt the solder applied in step one. After the solder has hardened the component is fixed 5. Now I solder the second pad. 6. The last step is to apply a bit more solder to the first pad in order to make a good contact. I hope my explanation was good enough. Regards Manfred Subject: [teres] Motor controller blues -was Screws for hole motor/controller mounting plate Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 09:02:15 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: Teres Hi Manfred and all, Not yet. I played with it a bit but then Work began demanding my full attention. I did note a few things though. I stuck (:>) with the hobby type craft glue. It is just so easy to use. The strobe remains easily removable and the glue leaves no residue. I put an Exacto knife in my brass carpenters compass and first cut the strobe's outside circumference. Then I cut the inside hole. At that point I used your idea and rolled up a piece of paper and inserted it in the platter's center hole, then let it expand to fill that hole. I sprayed a light coating of glue on the strobe and slid it down the paper roll. Actually, I've done this several times now. I have had the strobe centered pretty darned accurately. I really like your idea of using the roll of paper to center the strobe. While not foolproof, if done carefully, it is quite accurate. I broke out the trusty old 'scope and was surprised to see that the sensor was outputting a sine wave. Then I went to pin 8 of U4. It generates a nice square wave. I expanded this until a half-wave nearly filled the scope screen. The half-wave had a period that varied between 16ms and 17ms - generally, the variation was less than this. I figured this was the controller doing it's normal thing, increasing the length of the pulse as needed to keep the platter up to speed. Looking at other points of the circuit, such as around D7 and Q4 weren't as easily interpreted, but seemed to be operating properly. By the way, I've been out of electronics for some years now. I don't recall a device such as D7. What is it called? Somehow, I think it has a fancier name than "variable zener"... My next step is to use some heavier paper as you recommended. I'm using copying paper and with glue, it becomes slightly translucent. Somehow, I don't think this is the problem as the signals from the sensor and U4 look as I would expect them to. I can't imagine that the strobe can need to be centered more closely than I have had it. If everyone has the problem, perhaps the code on the microcontroller could be modified to loosen the tolerance a bit. Also, I haven't had a chance to make a strobe to see if the platter actually is rotating at 33 1/3rpm. Has anyone else on the list gotten their's going properly? Chris, yours is up and running, isn't it? I haven't had time to make much progress on the Teres, since assembling the motor controller. I'm hoping today I'll cut out four pieces of MDF to make a prototype base. I will mount the platter and tone-arm to this. For the prototype, I'm going to use a piece of 3" pvc pipe with a piece of wood on top to mount my Rega tone-arm. Well, that's where I'm at on the Teres! This is Labor Day week-end in the States. I'm going to a pig roast. I bet MDF would really soak up pig grease. Have a good week-end, folks. Cheers, Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Manfred Huber [mailto:MHuber@t-online.de] > Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 10:58 AM > To: Paul Croft > Subject: Re: [teres] Screws for hole motor/controller mounting plate > > > Paul, > > did you manage to get the controller working? > (green led constantly on). What was wrong? > Did you already have a listen? > Just curious. > > Regards > Manfred > > > ------------------ > Manfred Huber > MHuber@t-online.de > ------------------ > > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor controller blues -was Screws for hole motor/controller mounting plate Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:08:24 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Paul, >I broke out the trusty old 'scope and was surprised to see that the sensor >was outputting a sine wave. Then I went to pin 8 of U4. It generates a nice >square wave. A 'kind of' sine wave is to be expected. This is because the sensor is not focussed and thus it has a fairly large area of sensivity. The output voltage changes gradually as the border between a black and a white field crosses the sensor area. What is the distance of the sensor and the platter in your setup? >I expanded this until a half-wave nearly filled the scope >screen. The half-wave had a period that varied between 16ms and 17ms - This means that your platter is at nominal speed. The exact time for one full wave is 33.333ms (surprise ) The only problem is that the deviation due to errors in the measurement prevents the controller from recognizing the fact that the platter is at nominal speed. This has the consequence that it does not switch over from the start-up mode (PI control) to the normal mode (purely integrative control) If you have a function generator then you can verify the correct working of the controller by feeding a variable frequency signal to J4 Pin 3. The signal may be sinusoidal or a square wave. A few tens of millivolts of signal amplitude are sufficient. At a frequency of 97.2Hz the green LED goes on and after about 1sec the red LED is switched off. >I don't recall a device such as D7. What is it called? >Somehow, I think it has a fancier name than "variable zener"... It is called an integrated precision shunt voltage regulator. >My next step is to use some heavier paper as you recommended. I'm using >copying paper and with glue, it becomes slightly translucent. This may be a good idea. >I can't imagine that the strobe can need to be centered more closely >than I have had it. Maybe it is not a problem of the centering but of the printing or cutting? >If everyone has the problem, perhaps the code on the microcontroller >could be modified to loosen the tolerance a bit. I already did this per Chris' request. I'm running the controller with no problems with the switch-over margin set to 1% while the code you have has this value set to 1.5% >Has anyone else on the list gotten their's going properly? I would also be interested in this. >Chris, yours is up and running, isn't it? To the best of my knowledge it is. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: [teres] Breaking News, folks... Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:33:18 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: Teres Hi all, Well, my darned motor controller is finally working. Whew. What a struggle. Here are the things I changed. 1. I went to thicker paper for the strobe. 2. I changed the method of centering the strobe. 3. I re-adjusted, yet again the distance between stobe & sensor. The paper I finally used is Imaging & Photo paper from Great White. Product# 86010 Wieght: 37 lbs Brightness: 92 Matte finish Ultra White Purchased at: Walmart This is called an inkjet paper, but I made the strobe in my laserjet. By the way, I need a new toner cartridge and some of the marks on the strobe were kind of blotchy with thin white streaks showing here and there. 'Still works. The first time I put on the strobe made with the new paper, I centered it using the rolled paper method. Shoot, it came out way worse than my last attempt. I'm still using the most excellent Elmer's "Craft Bond" spray glue. In a fit of frustration, I peeled the strobe off the platter and centered it by feel, just using my fingers to line it up with the hole in the platter. The glue worked fine the second time. Well, this was better for about 13 seconds. Then the thing just cut off. This began happening consistently. I looked at the sensor under the platter. Doggonit! It looks like the tape slipped and the sensor is rubbing on the platter. I had routed a groove for the sensor assembly and taped it in with electical tape (hey, this is a prototype!). So I swagged the sensor gap a little. I turned it on again, and darned if the little devil didn't start working! The first time I've seen that!! Also, I made my new prototype plinth, or is it chassis? I cut four pieces of MDF and bolted them together with lots of 1/4" bolts. In the future, I see perhaps, some thin sheets of lead between the MDF layers. Also, I wish I had made more room for playing around with the arm board. Thom, I read your plan to use oval board of aluminum, acrilic, aluminum with intrigue. You don't have the parts for an extra, do you? :>) Well, onward and upward. Or as Quickdraw McGraw would say, Exit, stage left ->-> -> Paul Subject: Re: [teres] Breaking News, folks... Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 13:11:56 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Paul, >I turned it on again, and darned if the little devil didn't start working! >The first time I've seen that!! I'm glad to hear you finally made it work. Great news! Thanks for keeping this thread public. This way the lurkers have had their lesson I guess the conclusion of all this is that the assembly of the controller pcb is not the hard part. As it looks to me yours worked from the very beginning. The hard part seems to be getting the strobe right. I hope this problem will be resolved when we have the final strobe design available. I want to make clear that once you have the strobe at a point where the green led is constantly on and the red led is constantly off (not blinking) you can be sure that everything is ok. The errors introduced by the strobe disk only matter during the start up phase where the length of the pulses is measured. Once the green led is on the controller switches over to the pulse counting mode. In this mode small errors in pulse length do not matter. Have fun with your Turntable. It's time to spin some vinyl! Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: [teres] Stupid LED question Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:51:15 -0700 From: David Suess, David Suess To: teres@aiko.com Well, after my stupid question about soldering SMD components, I now will submit my stupid LED question. For the red and green motor controller LED's, what should the max voltage and current handling be? Rat Shack has a bunch with different ratings. Thanks. - david Subject: Re: [teres] Stupid LED question Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:36:36 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com David, My guess is that rat shack has packaged some LED's with an internal current limiting resistor so that it can be used as is with a particular voltage. The current limiting resistors used on the controller will limit the LED current to about 11ma. So select an LED that does not have a current limiting resistor that will handle at least 11ma (most are 25ma or more). Only the LED's that are packaged in some sort of holder will have a limiting resistor, the bare LED's do not. Chris > > Well, after my stupid question about soldering SMD components, I now will > submit my stupid LED question. > > For the red and green motor controller LED's, what should the max voltage > and current handling be? Rat Shack has a bunch with different ratings. > > Thanks. > > - david Subject: Re: [teres] Stupid LED question Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:08:51 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Brady" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [teres] Stupid LED question > David, > > My guess is that rat shack has packaged some LED's with an internal > current limiting resistor so that it can be used as is with a particular > voltage. Yes. > The current limiting resistors used on the controller will > limit the LED current to about 11ma. So select an LED that does not > have a current limiting resistor that will handle at least 11ma (most > are 25ma or more). Only the LED's that are packaged in some sort of > holder will have a limiting resistor, the bare LED's do not. I hear and obey. Did all the heavy lifting on Sunday, took about three hours, plus the time to go to rat shaque to get the self-same LEDs. Actually, I don't know if mine does actually work, 'cause I haven't found the "right" box for the toroid trannie. Only want to do this once. Any suggestions? I'd love to get this up and running or maybe release the magic smoke... Peter C > > > > Well, after my stupid question about soldering SMD components, I now will > > submit my stupid LED question. > > > > For the red and green motor controller LED's, what should the max voltage > > and current handling be? Rat Shack has a bunch with different ratings. > > > > Thanks. > > > > - david > Subject: RE: [teres] Stupid LED question Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 15:34:36 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com Hi Phil, We don't need no steenkin' box, man. To get up and spinning, I wrapped electrical tape around the toroid and threw it on the floor behind my amp. Hmm, I guess it's still back there - unless Dan the Cat got it. The platter still spins... Cheers, Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > phclark > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 2:05 PM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Stupid LED question > > snip... > > Did all the heavy lifting on Sunday, took about three hours, plus the time > to go to rat shaque to get the self-same LEDs. Actually, I don't know if > mine does actually work, 'cause I haven't found the "right" box for the > toroid trannie. Only want to do this once. Any suggestions? I'd love to > get this up and running or maybe release the magic smoke... > snip... Subject: Re: [teres] Stupid LED question Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 16:44:20 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com Yeah, I guess. As a lark, during lunch today I mounted my MC cart. Now I'm in big trouble. Barring release of the magic smoke from the controller, I could actually play this thing... Peter C ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Croft" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 2:32 PM Subject: RE: [teres] Stupid LED question > Hi Phil, > We don't need no steenkin' box, man. To get up and spinning, I wrapped > electrical tape around the toroid and threw it on the floor behind my amp. > Hmm, I guess it's still back there - unless Dan the Cat got it. The platter > still spins... > Cheers, > Paul > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > > phclark > > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 2:05 PM > > To: teres@aiko.com > > Subject: Re: [teres] Stupid LED question > > > > snip... > > > > Did all the heavy lifting on Sunday, took about three hours, plus the time > > to go to rat shaque to get the self-same LEDs. Actually, I don't know if > > mine does actually work, 'cause I haven't found the "right" box for the > > toroid trannie. Only want to do this once. Any suggestions? I'd love to > > get this up and running or maybe release the magic smoke... > > > snip... > > Subject: RE: [teres] Stupid LED question Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 19:50:50 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com Hi Phil, It's funny, at some point I came to the same realization. Now it plays music. Go for it!!!! It was pre-ordained. When the Lundahl MC transformers came in the mail yesterday afternoon, I knew I was going to listen to the turntable before I went to bed. Thank God I happened to pick up electrical tape at Rat Shack last week. I would of hated to have to use duct tape on my Teres. There are limits, even in Cecil County! (But please, don't tell my sister...) Cheers, Paul PS How did your cartridge alignment go? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > phclark > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 6:40 PM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Stupid LED question > > > Yeah, I guess. As a lark, during lunch today I mounted my MC > cart. Now I'm > in big trouble. Barring release of the magic smoke from the controller, I > could actually play this thing... > > Peter C > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Croft" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 2:32 PM > Subject: RE: [teres] Stupid LED question > > > > Hi Phil, > > We don't need no steenkin' box, man. To get up and spinning, I wrapped > > electrical tape around the toroid and threw it on the floor > behind my amp. > > Hmm, I guess it's still back there - unless Dan the Cat got it. The > platter > > still spins... > > Cheers, > > Paul > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > > > phclark > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 2:05 PM > > > To: teres@aiko.com > > > Subject: Re: [teres] Stupid LED question > > > > > > snip... > > > > > > Did all the heavy lifting on Sunday, took about three hours, plus the > time > > > to go to rat shaque to get the self-same LEDs. Actually, I don't know > if > > > mine does actually work, 'cause I haven't found the "right" > box for the > > > toroid trannie. Only want to do this once. Any suggestions? > I'd love > to > > > get this up and running or maybe release the magic smoke... > > > > > snip... > > > > > Subject: RE: [teres] Stupid LED question Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:53:13 -0700 From: David Dlugos, David Dlugos To: teres@aiko.com >We don't need no steenkin' box, man. To get up and spinning, I wrapped >electrical tape around the toroid and threw it on the floor behind my amp. The amazing electrical tape "box". A friend has an NAD 3020 with an extra 70,000+ uF of power supply C in such a box. It's 15+ years old and is still chuggin' dave __________________ Transmission Line Speaker Page http://www.t-linespeakers.org/ new! Chris Bobiak's variation on a Daline new! Arhus Triode Festival Subject: [teres] controller is here Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 23:42:39 -0700 From: Daus Studenberg, Daus Studenberg To: teres@aiko.com The controller arrived today. Looks great! I can't wait to get the soldering iron warmed up so that I can get to building it. :) One things I noticed is the the mounting plate still has been rough machined. I want that "mirror" polished finish so I am going to use a polish and wet sanding technique that I used once on a race car aluminum chassis. For those of you that are interested, you start out with a fine grit wet sanding paper like 800 grit, dip it in water and sand it by hand. After that, you work up to 1000 grit with water and to whatever fine grit paper you want after that. Just don't forget the water and bear in mind that it will take a LOT of elbow grease. After that, use "Mother's" aluminum polish a few times and you should have that professional "mirror" finish. Daus Subject: [teres] Motor Controller PCB Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 18:33:35 -0700 From: Schei, Kenneth, Schei, Kenneth To: 'teres@aiko.com' Well, on Labor Day, I finally got some time to myself and started stuffing the motor controller PCB. I found the directions to be excellent and quite comprehensive (well done, Chris), and the only thing that was new to me, like must of us, was the use of surface-mount caps. I heartily recommend an excellent pair of tweezers, and some type of vision aid. I borrowed a fine pair of needle-nose tweezers and a 5X loupe from my watch repair tool box (another crazy hobby - don't ask) and they were indispensible in installing the tiny caps. Make sure you read the directions carefully on where the various caps go; I incorrectly mislocated a couple of them and I had to unsolder and relocate them. I have a 15 watt grounded soldering iron with a fine tip that worked well on the PCB. I devised a different way to hold the caps in place while soldering them, and it worked nicely. I clamped a toothpick crosswise in the jaws of a medium-weight pair of long-nose pliers and held it in place by wrapping a rubber band around the handles. I then placed the cap in the proper location with my tweezers and pinned it down with the end of the toothpick. The PCB should be level and the toothpick roughly perpendicular to it. The weight of the pliers was sufficient to hold the cap in place while I soldered each end. The wood toothpick was gentle on the caps and didn't get soldered to anything. When I was done, I inspected the solder joints with the 5X loupe to ensure their quality. The loupe was good for inspecting other joints also. I'm now finished with the board and am part way through the mechanical assembly. Instead of using a piece of PVC between the top and bottom motor pod plates, I'm thinking of just using long bolts with tube spacers to separate the plates. That would give a skeleton look to the completed motor pod, which I think might be cool. I opted for the brass plates, and the two plates are probably heavy enough the keep the pod in the proper location and to provide adequate damping. Ken Subject: RE: [teres] Motor Controller PCB Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 07:00:36 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com Hi Ken and all, Congrats, on your controller, Ken. Neat idea for holding down the SMC caps. I will give it a try the next time I do these little devils. I didn't use tweezers at all. I just pushed the caps around the board with my exacto knife blade. I don't think I'm coordinated enough to actually pick something this small up and put it where it needs to be. :<) I also very much like your idea of using the Golden Ratio for the turntable base. I was going to make mine with all rounded curves following the platter and arm board. If I can use a friend's bandsaw to do this, I think the TT might come out looking very nice. Oh ya, a lot of sandpaper, too! I'll have to reconsider this now. But, come to think of it, an irregularly shaped base with rounded corners and no parallel sides, might be pretty good at suppressing resonances. Hmm, I wonder if I should compromise by cutting the base from squares using the GR, then cutting this to my final contours? With four layers of MDF, I have decided that I will put lead sheets between the top and bottom pairs and sorbothane in the center. I found a good source for sheet lead at "Small Parts, Inc." You can order their paper catalogue from www.smallparts.com Their catalogue is really neat for DIYers. A lot of off the wall, hard to find things. It's kind of neat, using MDF in layers, its easy to cut out holes in the interior pieces to run wires, and mount a small phono preamp right in the base. With the center two layers cut out just under the armboard there will be plenty of room for my MC transformers and the preamp with very short lead lengths. The only problem is there is no room for glass -stuck with FETS on the phono stage. I think I will paint all the vertical surfaces of my TT semi-gloss black. I will finish the horizontal surfaces either with a light colored veneer or with a nice semi-gloss eggshell or cream colored paint. By the way, can anyone recommend a good type of paint that can be used on MDF. I was hoping to spray paint the thing, but the sprays I have tried, just get absorbed on the MDF edges and come out flat instead of semi-gloss. By the way, I'm not putting my motor on the base at all. For now, it is just sitting on a deflex pad on the table, next to the base. I believe that virtually the only coupling mode between motor and platter is through the string. I will eventually put both base and motor on a pretty piece of wooden board. By then, I will have cones for the base. I think I will leave the motor pod on the deflex. Deflex is an almost gooey rubber that is sold for deadening in loudspeakers. I used Chris' idea for a PVC pod because it got me up and running very quickly. With a coat of semi-gloss black, I like it so much that I'll stick with it! Keep on truckin' Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Schei, Kenneth > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 8:34 PM > To: 'teres@aiko.com' > Subject: [teres] Motor Controller PCB > > > Well, on Labor Day, I finally got some time to myself and started > stuffing the motor controller PCB. Sadly snipped... > > I'm now finished with the board and am part way through the > mechanical assembly. Instead of using a piece of PVC between the top and > bottom motor pod plates, I'm thinking of just using long bolts with tube > spacers to separate the plates. That would give a skeleton look to the > completed motor pod, which I think might be cool. I opted for the brass > plates, and the two plates are probably heavy enough the keep the > pod in the > proper location and to provide adequate damping. > > Ken > Subject: [teres] X-former questino Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 07:18:10 -0700 From: dusan10@email.si, dusan10@email.si To: teres@aiko.com Hi all, I cant't find 15V secondary transformer for the Teres controller. Could I use 12V istead? Ciao Dusan ------------------- http://www.email.si