Subject: [teres] RE: [tere supply kit& remnant aluminum Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:12:00 -0700 From: Fritz Moore, Fritz Moore To: teres@aiko.com Would a battery power source with a transformer trickle charger offer any advantage? I have no idea how voltage sensitive the controller is but I think most areas have brown outs and voltage fluctuations. Is the controller able to keep time on a varrying voltage? If it does offer an advantage could we make it so that it can run directly off the transformer or directly from the battery. Seems like the wall wart wood keep the dreaded AC further away even though the wall wart may not be the aesthetic high point of this project. A metal surplus that I frequent has 4.5" OD aluminum tubing it is .395 wall and they have about 20 2-3' lengths. It sells for $2.35/pound. I was going to use this for my motor case. If there is enough interest in this I could buy several lengths and send it to Oregon for machining. It is thick enough that it would take a oring groove and bolt holes at the top. the oring might have some dampening effect? Also we could make two lids one without the motor mount and use it for a bottom then one could fill the motor thing half full with lead shot and oil or just lead shot. They have tons of plate I can check to see if they have the 3/8" it would also be 2.35/pound. If my memory serves me the price on tubing is the deal of the century, generally if you go to have 4" cut off a new odd size tube youll get reamed. Certainly if we could group plan this it would be a money saver. I cant imagine a machinist charging less than 1 hr to do an odd ball operation like drilling and tapping a pipe wall to receive this lid. Add this to a short cut charge and I think we'd be way ahead by trying to make a group run using remnant. I like Chris's lid design if it was adapted to this tube size wed have another problem solved. Id also vote to have Chris source switches and LEDs it will save money and probably cost so little that if someone doesnt like them they can save them for another project. Fritz -----Original Message----- From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of Chris Brady Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 9:01 PM To: teres@aiko.com Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit There seems to be a consensus that the motor/controller kit should include a deluxe (thick) motor mounting plate. Attached is a draft design for the motor mounting plate. Not all of the dimensions are there yet but it is enough to get an idea of what it will look like. I am working on sourcing parts for the controller and have a few questions for the group. 1) Power xfmr - Should this be a wall wart or a small xfmr that can be mounted inside the motor pod? Or should we not include an xfmr in the kit so that everyone can do their own thing? I am leaning toward a wall wart. 2) Switch and LED's - The controller uses a single pushbutton switch and two LED's. There's tons of styles and types. Should I just choose what I think everyone would like or leave them out of the kit. Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:22:01 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 2/29/00 22:01, Chris Brady at cbrady@sgi.com wrote: > There seems to be a consensus that the motor/controller kit > should include a deluxe (thick) motor mounting plate. > Attached is a draft design for the motor mounting plate. > Not all of the dimensions are there yet but it is enough > to get an idea of what it will look like. I didn't get the attachment, Chris. > > I am working on sourcing parts for the controller and have a few > questions for the group. > > 1) Power xfmr - Should this be a wall wart or a small xfmr that > can be mounted inside the motor pod? Or should we not include > an xfmr in the kit so that everyone can do their own thing? > I am leaning toward a wall wart. Wall wart. Get the AC away frrom the TT, cartridge, etc. > > 2) Switch and LED's - The controller uses a single pushbutton > switch and two LED's. There's tons of styles and types. > Should I just choose what I think everyone would like or > leave them out of the kit. Provide them and folks can substitute for cosmetics as they see fit. Just my 2 cents. Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] RE: [tere supply kit& remnant aluminum Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:52:37 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 2/29/00 23:08, Fritz Moore at fbmoore@ucdavis.edu wrote: > Would a battery power source with a transformer trickle charger offer any > advantage? > I have no idea how voltage sensitive the controller is but I think most > areas have brown outs and voltage fluctuations. Is the controller able to > keep time on a varrying voltage? > If it does offer an advantage could we make it so that it can run directly > off the transformer or directly from the battery. > Seems like the wall wart wood keep the dreaded AC further away even though > the wall wart may not be the aesthetic high point of this project. > > A metal surplus that I frequent has 4.5" OD aluminum tubing it is .395 wall > and they have about 20 2-3' lengths. It sells for $2.35/pound. I was going > to use this for my motor case. If there is enough interest in this I could > buy several lengths and send it to Oregon for machining. It is thick enough > that it would take a oring groove and bolt holes at the top. the oring > might have some dampening effect? Also we could make two lids one without > the motor mount and use it for a bottom then one could fill the motor thing > half full with lead shot and oil or just lead shot. > They have tons of plate I can check to see if they have the 3/8" it would > also be 2.35/pound. If my memory serves me the price on tubing is the deal > of the century, generally if you go to have 4" cut off a new odd size tube > youll get reamed. > Certainly if we could group plan this it would be a money saver. I cant > imagine a machinist charging less than 1 hr to do an odd ball operation like > drilling and tapping a pipe wall to receive this lid. Add this to a short > cut charge and I think we'd be way ahead by trying to make a group run using > remnant. I like Chris's lid design if it was adapted to this tube size wed > have another problem solved. > > Id also vote to have Chris source switches and LEDs it will save money and > probably cost so little that if someone doesnt like them they can save them > for another project. > > Fritz > All good points, Fritz. I am all for it. Thanks for offering the materials. Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 01:43:11 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Chris, We definitely do **not** want to put a x-former anywhere near the 'table. If we were worried about the itty bitty little bit of noise that a good DC motor can make, we should definitely worry about the New Year's grade of noisemaking that a trans is capable of! If a trans is used at all, it should be remoted, making a wall wart sound more attractive, if a bit chintzy in our scheme of things. An even better way to go might be to package the trans and rectifiers in a remote box, plus a filter cap (to be followed by another at the controller circuit) so that only DC comes anywhere near the table. Connection can be via a *limp* cable, such as Belden #8424 (IIRC the # off the top of my head), which I used in a Super-It project that I did. It is shielded, limp, of adequate gauge, if a bit large in O.D., 4 wires. Steve Z. knows where to get it in reasonable quantities/price. Alternately, perhaps a trans should be specified, but not supplied, as some may wish to use battery power. Switches: I would suggest supplying them if quantity discounting is really significant, as I suspect that most everyone in this group is likely to have a few around, or have cosmetic preferences. Igor --- Chris Brady wrote: > There seems to be a consensus that the > motor/controller kit > should include a deluxe (thick) motor mounting > plate. > Attached is a draft design for the motor mounting > plate. > Not all of the dimensions are there yet but it is > enough > to get an idea of what it will look like. > > I am working on sourcing parts for the controller > and have a few > questions for the group. > > 1) Power xfmr - Should this be a wall wart or a > small xfmr that > can be mounted inside the motor pod? Or should > we not include > an xfmr in the kit so that everyone can do their > own thing? > I am leaning toward a wall wart. > > 2) Switch and LED's - The controller uses a single > pushbutton > switch and two LED's. There's tons of styles and > types. > Should I just choose what I think everyone would > like or > leave them out of the kit. > > Chris > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 01:49:58 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Wall warts tend to be pretty wimpy. As per the other, related post, a real trans with rectifiers & cap remoted would be the hot setup. Igor --- Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella wrote: > I'm for ordering all of the parts too (the switch & > LED's). They'll be so > inexpensive that they can always go in the parts > box. > > With respect to transformer, either of two > posibilities are fine with me - > both of them being remote: (a) a remote transformer > (b) a wall-wart. > > I'd personally prefer a real (remote) transformer, > but perhaps this is my > ignorance speaking. Any thoughts on whether or not > a wall-wart provides > enough regulation? > > Not to put you on the spot Chris, but have you seen > any interesting and > small volt meters? Do you want us to start > researching this? > > Thom > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 01:58:21 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com I think so , too. Peter C ----- Original Message ----- From: "Igor Kuznetsoff" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 12:48 AM Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit > Wall warts tend to be pretty wimpy. As per the other, > related post, a real trans with rectifiers & cap > remoted would be the hot setup. > > Igor > > --- Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > wrote: > > I'm for ordering all of the parts too (the switch & > > LED's). They'll be so > > inexpensive that they can always go in the parts > > box. > > > > With respect to transformer, either of two > > posibilities are fine with me - > > both of them being remote: (a) a remote transformer > > (b) a wall-wart. > > > > I'd personally prefer a real (remote) transformer, > > but perhaps this is my > > ignorance speaking. Any thoughts on whether or not > > a wall-wart provides > > enough regulation? > > > > Not to put you on the spot Chris, but have you seen > > any interesting and > > small volt meters? Do you want us to start > > researching this? > > > > Thom > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 04:44:04 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Chris, two suggestions: Use three screws to mount the motor. Make the diameter of the recess as small as possible, 28mm is enough. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] RE: [tere supply kit& remnant aluminum Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 04:44:04 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Fritz, >Would a battery power source with a transformer trickle charger offer any >advantage? No, I can see no advantage in using a battery supply with this design. >I have no idea how voltage sensitive the controller is but I think most >areas have brown outs and voltage fluctuations. Is the controller able to >keep time on a varrying voltage? Yes it is. It incorporates a full blown shunt regulator. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 04:44:06 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Peter, >Cost is a consideration to some extent. My personal leaning is a >transformer. I somehow feel I would jave more control over the results. No doubt a 15V/1A transformer is a good choice. I can see no reason against a 15Vac wall-wart but try to find an *AC* type. I have included Schottky rectifiers in the controller design. These are way better than anything you will find in a dc wall-wart. >Turns out it was an unusual metric size with an even more unusual pitch. What do you mean metric being unusual Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 04:44:21 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Igor, > We definitely do **not** want to put a x-former >anywhere near the 'table. If we were worried about >the itty bitty little bit of noise that a good DC >motor can make, we should definitely worry about the New >Year's grade of noisemaking that a trans is capable >of! Agreed, this is why i use an external transformer. Note however that I have included the rectifier on the controller board. Personally I had no problems with the 15vac going to the controller. >An even better way to go might be to package the trans and rectifiers in >a remote box, plus a filter cap (to be followed by another at the controller circuit) >so that only DC comes anywhere near the table. If you want to do it this way then simply leave the rectifiers and filter cap off the control board and mount them at the transformer. Install a small 47uF cap at the controller board in place of the big 2200uF part that is now at the transformer side. I agree that dc wall-warts are wimpy. This is why I vote against using a dc wall-wart. Now an ac wall-wart is different. It is simply a power transformer with housing. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: RE: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 04:59:51 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com Hi Chris, Ugh, no wall warts, please! Perhaps this is better left to the individual. Since the switch and LEDs are so visible, I think most people would rather select their own style and look. No reason to over-burden yourself with the minutiae ;>) Cheers, Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Chris Brady > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 12:01 AM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit > > >(...pins) > > I am working on sourcing parts for the controller and have a few > questions for the group. > > 1) Power xfmr - Should this be a wall wart or a small xfmr that > can be mounted inside the motor pod? Or should we not include > an xfmr in the kit so that everyone can do their own thing? > I am leaning toward a wall wart. > > 2) Switch and LED's - The controller uses a single pushbutton > switch and two LED's. There's tons of styles and types. > Should I just choose what I think everyone would like or > leave them out of the kit. > > Chris > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 07:34:03 -0700 From: George Munger, George Munger To: teres@aiko.com I believe that all the parts should be included, and that a remote txfr is a good for me. GM >>> "Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella" 03/01 1:38 AM >>> I'm for ordering all of the parts too (the switch & LED's). They'll be so inexpensive that they can always go in the parts box. With respect to transformer, either of two posibilities are fine with me - both of them being remote: (a) a remote transformer (b) a wall-wart. I'd personally prefer a real (remote) transformer, but perhaps this is my ignorance speaking. Any thoughts on whether or not a wall-wart provides enough regulation? Not to put you on the spot Chris, but have you seen any interesting and small volt meters? Do you want us to start researching this? Thom ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Subject: RE: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 07:53:25 -0700 From: Mikhail Karlin, Mikhail Karlin To: teres@aiko.com Hi, all Agreed with Paul, I'd rather we leave it up to the individual- trans and LEDs Michael On Wed, 1 Mar 2000, Paul Croft wrote: > Hi Chris, > Ugh, no wall warts, please! Perhaps this is better left to the individual. > Since the switch and LEDs are so visible, I think most people would rather > select their own style and look. No reason to over-burden yourself with the > minutiae ;>) > Cheers, > Paul > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > > Chris Brady > > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 12:01 AM > > To: teres@aiko.com > > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit > > > > > >(...pins) > > > > I am working on sourcing parts for the controller and have a few > > questions for the group. > > > > 1) Power xfmr - Should this be a wall wart or a small xfmr that > > can be mounted inside the motor pod? Or should we not include > > an xfmr in the kit so that everyone can do their own thing? > > I am leaning toward a wall wart. > > > > 2) Switch and LED's - The controller uses a single pushbutton > > switch and two LED's. There's tons of styles and types. > > Should I just choose what I think everyone would like or > > leave them out of the kit. > > > > Chris > > > Subject: RE: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 08:09:24 -0700 From: Jon Lane, Jon Lane To: teres@aiko.com I'll look into a high-quality in-line tranny/supply if the group wishes. I am with a company that uses these up to 3A. they're very hefty... Jon Lane > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com > [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Igor Kuznetsoff > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 12:48 AM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit > > > Wall warts tend to be pretty wimpy. As per the other, > related post, a real trans with rectifiers & cap > remoted would be the hot setup. > > Igor Subject: RE: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 08:10:24 -0700 From: Jon Lane, Jon Lane To: teres@aiko.com I'll buy one. Jon Lane > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com > [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Chris Brady > Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 10:29 AM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: [teres] Motor/supply kit > > > I am wondering if there would be interest in including > a motor mounting plate in the motor/controller kit. > I expect that there will be a lot of different shapes and > sizes of motor pods, but perhaps we can agree on a single > mounting plate design and benefit from a quantity > discount. > > I am thinking that a round mounting plate, say 4" > in diameter > with mounting holes around the edge would work > for either a > round or rectangular motor pod. We could each > make our own > but with enough units they could be precision made on a NC > mill at a reasonable cost. If made from fairly > thin aluminum > (1/16 - 1/8") it would be inexpensive. However, we could > also opt for a more expensive design made from 1/4 - 3/8" > aluminum with nice recessed holes for cap screws and an > anodized finish. The thicker plate may not work > any better > but it would sure look sweet. > > Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:07:31 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Folks, DC wall warts tend to use the cheapest half -wave rectification possible, and a wimpy little cap, if any. As Manfred observes, we should avoid those entirely. As he observes, to remote the entire ac section, only moving the rectifiers and adding a cap is necessary. I have done this to a number of circuits, and have been very happy with the results. I would suggest only one difference from Manfred's suggestion, and that would be to put the *larger* cap closest to the voltage regulation (on the board), and the smaller (either the 47uF or whatever is above that size & handy) by the rectifiers, but either way would work. I have just found that keeping the largest part of the cap supply closest to the regulation works better. Igor --- Manfred Huber wrote: > Igor, > > > We definitely do **not** want to put a > x-former > >anywhere near the 'table. If we were worried about > >the itty bitty little bit of noise that a good DC > >motor can make, we should definitely worry about > the New > >Year's grade of noisemaking that a trans is capable > >of! > > Agreed, this is why i use an external transformer. > Note however > that I have included the rectifier on the controller > board. > Personally I had no problems with the 15vac going to > the controller. > > >An even better way to go might be to package the > trans and rectifiers in > >a remote box, plus a filter cap (to be followed by > another at the controller circuit) > >so that only DC comes anywhere near the table. > > If you want to do it this way then simply leave the > rectifiers and filter cap > off the control board and mount them at the > transformer. Install a small 47uF cap > at the controller board in place of the big 2200uF > part that is now at the transformer side. > > I agree that dc wall-warts are wimpy. This is why I > vote against using a dc wall-wart. > Now an ac wall-wart is different. It is simply a > power transformer with housing. > > Regards > Manfred > > > > > ------------------ > Manfred Huber > MHuber@t-online.de > ------------------ > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:24:27 -0700 From: Peter Boser, Peter Boser To: teres@aiko.com Manfred, Does the controller allow the option of 78rpm? Thanks for your efforts, Pete __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:00:56 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Peter, >Does the controller allow the option of 78rpm? No, it works only at 33 1/3 and 45 rpm. While it would not be hard to build a version that works at 78rpm this would necessitate compromises in the control at 33 1/3 rpm Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 12:42:55 -0700 From: Peter Boser, Peter Boser To: teres@aiko.com Certainly compromise of the 33 1/3 performance is not worthwhile. Thanks for the reply. Pete --- Manfred Huber wrote: > Peter, > > >Does the controller allow the option of 78rpm? > > No, it works only at 33 1/3 and 45 rpm. > While it would not be hard to build a version that > works > at 78rpm this would necessitate compromises in the > control > at 33 1/3 rpm > > Regards > Manfred > > > ------------------ > Manfred Huber > MHuber@t-online.de > ------------------ > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:19:01 -0700 From: Daus Studenberg, Daus Studenberg To: teres@aiko.com How much power is needed for the motor kit??? I don't think it would be that much so i think a wall wart would be fine. Besides, I agree that moving the AC components well away from the turntable is a GREAT idea. AC can cause a LOT of hum, especially from a transformer. I have also noticed that we want to include switches, LEDS and now I notice an alluminum enclosure. I think all of the "extras" will cause each of our projects to lose its flexibility in cosmetics. I think it would be best if the kit just include what you need to get the motor/pulley system WORKING. I also think that including the motor mount is a great idea. I think it would look even better with a 45 degree bevel on the edges. Daus Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:57:15 -0700 From: David Suess, David Suess To: teres@aiko.com I've been reading the posts - great ideas all around... My input... The motor mounting plate is not only a good idea, but it is required. I just assumed it would be part of the "kit". The design posted is fine. Better minds than mine have figured out all the details. As for what it's made of, I would not vote for copper due to the fact that it's going to turn an ugly brown color over time. My vote is for brass, but aluminum is just fine. As for the wall-wart for the controller - that's just fine with me. Other designs for DC motor controllers use batteries, so I would think the AC wall-wart would do the job nicely and keep the AC away from the arm/cartridge. My $.02. - david suess Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:16:38 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 3/1/00 06:51, Mikhail Karlin at mk15@is2.nyu.edu wrote: > Hi, all > Agreed with Paul, I'd rather we leave it up to the individual- trans and > LEDs > Michael > > On Wed, 1 Mar 2000, Paul Croft wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> Ugh, no wall warts, please! Perhaps this is better left to the individual. >> Since the switch and LEDs are so visible, I think most people would rather >> select their own style and look. No reason to over-burden yourself with the >> minutiae ;>) >> Cheers, >> Paul >> Paul and Michael would rather have a partial parts kit. I would much rather have as complete a parts kit, perhaps for purely personal reasons, but my reasoning is this: 1) None of the parts we are talking about -- a switch, two LEDS, a 15VA AC transformer or wall-wart -- will add appreciably to the cost of the kit, particularly when bought in quantity. 2) Any of the parts can be substituted for by the individual, as his or her time, money and predilictions dictate. 3) (The selfish part) I know my time constraints and my predilicition to procrastination too well -- if I have to start looking up and sourcing individual hardware and components myself, it increases by a large factor how long it takes me to complete a project. I still have my SuperIT on my workbench in parts, and several amateur radio projects laying around partially completed. I don't need any more stumbling blocks, even if self-imposed! Along these lines, a quality (oxymoron?) AC wall wart eliminates the necessity to find more parts than just the transformer. This includes the case, an AC cord, a plug, and the output conductors to the controller. Later, when I have time, I can go crazy with line cords and 1000VA AC transformers and hyperlitz unobtanium conductors shunted by 1 farad capacitors. . . 8^) Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 22:18:39 -0700 From: MaughanAudio@aol.com, MaughanAudio@aol.com To: teres@aiko.com Wall warts have a nice place regarding convenience, but I myself will opt for a transformer enclosed in a potted aluminum case. I have found that small changes in AC conditioning always improve the sound of my system. A wall wart at best with it's flimsy parallel DC output leads will only pick up more noise. I don't think it's necessarily a question of not enough regulation but rather a new pickup source for noise. With a potted metal case I can use a generic IEC AC connector with a built in filter and then some sort of coaxial output lead for the DC feed to allow for shielding the DC feed. This will also allow the use of a generic Belden shielded AC power cord to feed the x-former box. Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit - shielding question Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:10:29 -0700 From: Daus Studenberg, Daus Studenberg To: teres@aiko.com Now I think about it, I like this idea over a wall wart. The main thing is to keep the AC away from the turntable. I also like the DC shield thing as well. Speaking of which, I have a grounding question. I have always been curious as to the best way to shield a tonearm. I understand the tonearm itself has a ground and that gets connected to the preamp. Why are the grounds for the right and left channel and the tonearm all separated??? Anyway, I was thinking of a cable that had the right and left channels with a coaxial cable and then have those two cables surrounded by the tonearm shield (copper braid) all the way back to the preamp. However, most phono cables I see use just a straight wire that most of the time is not even physically connected to the phono cable. Can anybody tell me what works best from their experience??? Thanks, Daus ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 8:12 PM Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit > Wall warts have a nice place regarding convenience, but I myself will opt for > a transformer enclosed in a potted aluminum case. I have found that small > changes in AC conditioning always improve the sound of my system. A wall wart > at best with it's flimsy parallel DC output leads will only pick up more > noise. I don't think it's necessarily a question of not enough regulation but > rather a new pickup source for noise. With a potted metal case I can use a > generic IEC AC connector with a built in filter and then some sort of coaxial > output lead for the DC feed to allow for shielding the DC feed. This will > also allow the use of a generic Belden shielded AC power cord to feed the > x-former box. Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 03:36:37 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Daus, >How much power is needed for the motor kit??? About 15mA of standby current (motor not running) and 215mA when running. The current draw is constant regardless of input voltage (as long as it is high enough) and motor load. This is because the internal voltage regulator consists of a current source followed by a shunt regulator. >I don't think it would be that much so i think a wall wart would be fine. If it is a good quaility unit: yes Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 06:24:35 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com I would have no problem being nominated to procure the cable. We'll need an estimate of what we need. It is good for a variety of projects (I am using it to supply power to the SuperIT box, when I get to that stage). I am comfortable with a Motor/Controller kit either with or without AC wall wart (I have no problem sourcing my own wart), later when I have more time, I can do the whole enchilada power supply. Steve Z > Steve Z. may have wholesale access to the Belden cable that Igor specified > for our Super It mods - Belden #8424. I'm not trying to put Steve on the > spot here (yeah, right ). This stuff is indeed very flexible as Igor > describes, and for those of you who will end up "floating" your entire motor > pod & subchassis as one assembly, the flexibility is most beneficial. I'm > attaching Igor's comments from a private e-mail on this cable: > > --- Begin quoted text from Igor --- > > The wire you will need for the PS to It umbilical > is Belden's #8424, which is a braid *shielded* quad > 20-gauge configuration in a limply soft EPDM black > jacket. > > It ran about $76/100' last I looked. Do not > substite for it unless what you find as flexible (so > it must have a rubber jacket, PVC is too stiff),no > larger in diameter(this is the largest that will fit), > has a braided (not foil which is too stiff) shield, > has 4 high-quality copper stranded (for flexibility) > conductors of no less than 20 gauge. In short,at the > time that I spent over 30 hours trying to find this > combination of features, and then struggled to get > only a few feet of it, this was *the* only wire that > fit, so good luck on a substitution. Good thing you > know that rep, that is big luck! > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 07:49:58 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Thom, >(1) A/C wall wart vs. external transformer in a box: Here is what I would do: (but I'm only the developer of the circuit ): DigiKey has an ac wall-wart #MT7105-ND (see http://www.digikey.com/EC/V3/549.pdf) with screw terminals at about $10. Use this together with a good quality shielded twisted pair cable (AWG24) to the drive unit. Connect the shield of the cable to safety ground at the wall-wart and to the motor housing on the other end. If at a later point in time you feel that you want a 'better' supply (personally I can't see why this would be the case) then write off the $10 for the wall-wart and go ahead. >(2) Specifying a small analog voltmeter to facilitate belt tension >adjustment. This is a matter of personal taste. I don't have one and I sure don't miss it. My personal experience is that it is not hard to get the belt tension right. The few $ for the meter are not the main problem but consider the work that has to be done to integrate the meter seamlessly into the motor housing. I have implemented the controller in a way that it only needs a single pushbutton in order to keep the mechanical work needed to a minimum. >A couple of observations about the kit are in order. While most of the >group is fairly experienced at building stuff, there are a couple of folks >who will need a support network. What we need most is somebody who is willing to write an instruction manual. I can supply the needed information but someone else will have to do the editing. I consider my english not good enough for this and for this reason it would take me a lot of time. It would be best if the person writing the hardware assembly instructions would also build the first prototype and write down his experiences during the building process. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: [teres] Have a look Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:01:00 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Guys, for those of you interested in what it takes to build the motor controller without a PCB I have put up two pictures of the prototype on my web site. I built this prototype in order to verify the function of the new circuit. http://home.t-online.de/home/MHuber/compside.gif http://home.t-online.de/home/MHuber/soldersd.gif Please excuse the bad quality, the pictures are made with a flat bed scanner. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:32:25 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com With Manfreds excellent suggestion for transformers I think that I have sourced and priced all of the parts for the motor controller. I am waiting for a price from Bryce on the pulley and mounting plate and also a price estimate from Ron for the circuit boards. I hope to have a total price for the kits early next week. The price will be based on an order of 30+ kits. So far 28 have expressed interest in a kit and I suspect that there are a few more that will want a kit that I have not heard from. Now for some of the details that Thom enumerated. 1) Transformer - Manfreds transformer suggestions look very good. I would like to keep this process simple, but offering a choice of transformers makes sense. Here's the info on the xfmrs: - DigiKey pn MT7105-ND a 14vac 850ma wall wart with screw terminals with a qty 10 price of $10.46 - DigiKey pn TE70040-ND a 114vac 714ma toroidal xfmr (very nice) with a qty 10 price of $12.84 Hopefully these xfmrs will satisfy everyone's needs and they are reasonably priced. If we get orders for less than 10 of each the price will increase by about $2.00. 2) Voltage meter - I like the idea of a meter even though it is not a must. However, the prices were $15 and up and I was unable to find small (1" or less) meters. Based on this I am inclined to not include a meter in the kit. 3) Switch and LEDs - I think that I have come up with a good compromise for this issue. I went to a local surplus store yesterday and found a small, very nice looking pushbutton switch for only 75 cents. I will plan to include this switch in the kit, toss it if you don't like it. I also decided to include a slick 2 color (red/green) LED in the kit. It is only 54 cents and I think that it will appeal to to the majority of the kit builders. Radio Shack has a nice chrome bezel that you can mount the LED in it strikes your fancy. My plan was to only include these cosmetic items if they were cheap and I thought that they would have a wide appeal. I think that these fit the bill. Chris Subject: RE: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:45:03 -0700 From: Schei, Kenneth, Schei, Kenneth To: 'teres@aiko.com' Chris: Great work on the motor mounting plate. I would prefer brass to aluminum. Ken Ken Schei, P.E. Project Engineer Antarctic Support Associates Email address: scheike@asa.org Phone: 303-643-0163 > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Croft [SMTP:pcroft@iximd.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 9:15 PM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: RE: [teres] Motor/supply kit > > This sounds great, Chris! Let's go for the more expensive one. What the > heck, in for a nickel, in for a dime. > Cheers, > Paul > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > > Chris Brady > > Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 12:29 PM > > To: teres@aiko.com > > Subject: [teres] Motor/supply kit > > > > > > I am wondering if there would be interest in including > > a motor mounting plate in the motor/controller kit. > > (snip...) > > However, we could > > also opt for a more expensive design made from 1/4 - 3/8" > > aluminum with nice recessed holes for cap screws and an > > anodized finish. The thicker plate may not work any better > > but it would sure look sweet. > > > > Chris > > Subject: RE: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:01:37 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'teres@aiko.com' Thank you for your suggestions, Manfred. Your positive comments about the $10.00 AC wall-wart are very persuasive and will certainly help to push the project along that much more quickly. I for one can be very happy living with your recommendations, as well as with one less box (transformer) to keep track of. You are certainly correct that machining an area for the volt meter would add complexity to the construction process, unless of course we had the stock of meters on hand early on and could specify the hole for Bryce to machine directly on the mounting plate. It is encouaraging that you have not had difficulties establishing proper belt tension. I gather that this means that the Maxon bearing is robust and that even with a magnetic recording tape belt, there is no danger of exerting too much radial stress on the bearing. Your suggestion about an assembly guide is a good one. I'm guessing that I will be "volunteered" for this task . Regarding your English, I wish that my second (learned in high school) language - French approached your fluency in English. I am truly jealous of all of my Euro-friends. I will truly mis meeting all of you at Kurt Steffenson's Arhus "festival" this Summer. Cheers, Thom -----Original Message----- From: MHuber@t-online.de [mailto:MHuber@t-online.de] Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:48 AM To: teres@aiko.com Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary Thom, >(1) A/C wall wart vs. external transformer in a box: Here is what I would do: (but I'm only the developer of the circuit ): DigiKey has an ac wall-wart #MT7105-ND (see http://www.digikey.com/EC/V3/549.pdf) with screw terminals at about $10. Use this together with a good quality shielded twisted pair cable (AWG24) to the drive unit. Connect the shield of the cable to safety ground at the wall-wart and to the motor housing on the other end. If at a later point in time you feel that you want a 'better' supply (personally I can't see why this would be the case) then write off the $10 for the wall-wart and go ahead. >(2) Specifying a small analog voltmeter to facilitate belt tension >adjustment. This is a matter of personal taste. I don't have one and I sure don't miss it. My personal experience is that it is not hard to get the belt tension right. The few $ for the meter are not the main problem but consider the work that has to be done to integrate the meter seamlessly into the motor housing. I have implemented the controller in a way that it only needs a single pushbutton in order to keep the mechanical work needed to a minimum. >A couple of observations about the kit are in order. While most of the >group is fairly experienced at building stuff, there are a couple of folks >who will need a support network. What we need most is somebody who is willing to write an instruction manual. I can supply the needed information but someone else will have to do the editing. I consider my english not good enough for this and for this reason it would take me a lot of time. It would be best if the person writing the hardware assembly instructions would also build the first prototype and write down his experiences during the building process. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: RE: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:06:02 -0700 From: Schei, Kenneth, Schei, Kenneth To: 'teres@aiko.com' Thom: I don't think that a separate transformer itself will cost much more than a wall-wart. Any significant additional cost would be for the filtering and conditioning which would be required for either transformer. Will the PC board contain the power filtering or is it only the motor controller circuitry? As far as meters go, I would prefer something vintage-looking, and I would not put an LCD display on any of my equipment. I prefer the early Dr. Frankenstein look. Ken Ken Schei, P.E. Project Engineer Antarctic Support Associates Email address: scheike@asa.org Phone: 303-643-0163 > -----Original Message----- > From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella [SMTP:tmackris@earthlink.net] > Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 1:49 AM > To: Teres_List > Subject: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary > > All, > > > (1) A/C wall wart vs. external transformer in a box: > > My guess is that the group will split over the issue of A/C wall-wart > vs a transformer in a box. The cost differential may amount to $40.00 or > so > between the two (this is probably a high guess). Once we get more > information, we can individually decide the path we wish to take. The > numbers are so large, that I'll bet the pricing would be favorable for > both > options in any event. > > (2) Specifying a small analog voltmeter to facilitate belt tension > adjustment. > > This hasn't received much discussion. BTW, I liked Igor's comment > that > the best voltage to run the motor should be "minimum, plus a bit" to take > belt slippage into account. I privately spoke with Chris about ordering > meters, and if memory serves (I haven't personally researched this), he's > found some small, cute analog meters that would look way cool on our motor > mounts (no LCD displays on our analog rigs ). > > If the price is only $5.00 or so, I'm suggesting that this be a > standard part of the kit for reasons of (a) repeatiblity of setup as well > as > (b) to simplify Chris's life in assembling the kits. > > Unless I'm missing something (entirely possible), I suggest that the > transformer choice be the *only* option, since all of the other decisions > are of insignificant financial consequence and at worst, as was suggested > elsewhere, you'll have a few bucks worth of parts for your parts bin. > Addidionally, I think you'll all agree that even if your tastes differ > from > Chris slightly, he always chooses parts that have a classy look so you > won't > end up with some chintzy looking parts. > > I'd suggest that when the time comes to make your selection (sometime next > week?) that you title your e-mail "votes" to Chris with some descriptive > words like: "Yes-Teres A/C Wall-Wart" or "Yes-Teres External > Transformer". > If you can cut 'n paste these subjects into your e-mails to Chris, this > would greatly simplify his mail filtering (picture having to consolidate > and > tally 40 orders). > > This e-mail will serve to: (1) re-affirm that you want a motor/controller > kit and (2) which option you've selected. I think that re-affirming > orders > would be a good thing, since we did have some dropouts late in the > bearing/platter stage. Granted, anyone who got this far is committed (or > should be committed ), but this wouldn't hurt. > > A couple of observations about the kit are in order. While most of the > group is fairly experienced at building stuff, there are a couple of folks > who will need a support network. Most of these people are within driving > distance of others, but I'd hate to make that assumption. For this reason > as well as in reply to Steve Z's plea to make his project backlog as > minimal > as possible, I'm suggesting that we attempt to complie a complete kit, > perhaps even down to the last nut and bolt. We should ask ourselves how > Ron > Welborne would supply this. > > One exception to the above would be that for those who are opting for an > A/C > transformer (as opposed to a wall-wart), we could specify a part number > for > a ($6-$10) Radio Shack box which anyone can purchase either directly or > off > the web. > > 1. The main "Kit" > > a) Maxon Motor. > b) Pulley. > c) Motor mounting plate - 1/4" to 3/8" thick. > d) Printed Circuit Board > e) All parts to stuff the board (incl. LED's & switch). > f) A/C wall-wart or external transformer > g) A small volt meter (dial display, not LCD) ?? > h) Misc. parts amortized over the entire order - compiler, board to > "burn > in the code", etc. > > Extra Stuff (If external power transformer is specified): > > a) Combination IEC plug / "Corcom" line filter for transformer box. > b) Fuses > c) Umbilical cord to link transformer to controller. > d) Male & female connectors for umbilical. > e) Case (to be purchased individually by each member). > > With respect to external transformers, there have been two suggestions so > far: > > Jon Lane has offered to research a beefy power transformer and I suspect > that being local, it will be an easy matter for him to keep Chris > apprised > by phone or e-mail. > > DARN !! I can't find the other e-mail I received today! I filed it > somewhere :-(( Was it Peter Clark who had a part number for a $10.00 > transformer recommended in an Audio Amateur article? > > Umbilical cord for external transformer: > > Steve Z. may have wholesale access to the Belden cable that Igor specified > for our Super It mods - Belden #8424. I'm not trying to put Steve on the > spot here (yeah, right ). This stuff is indeed very flexible as Igor > describes, and for those of you who will end up "floating" your entire > motor > pod & subchassis as one assembly, the flexibility is most beneficial. I'm > attaching Igor's comments from a private e-mail on this cable: > > --- Begin quoted text from Igor --- > > The wire you will need for the PS to It umbilical > is Belden's #8424, which is a braid *shielded* quad > 20-gauge configuration in a limply soft EPDM black > jacket. > > It ran about $76/100' last I looked. Do not > substite for it unless what you find as flexible (so > it must have a rubber jacket, PVC is too stiff),no > larger in diameter(this is the largest that will fit), > has a braided (not foil which is too stiff) shield, > has 4 high-quality copper stranded (for flexibility) > conductors of no less than 20 gauge. In short,at the > time that I spent over 30 hours trying to find this > combination of features, and then struggled to get > only a few feet of it, this was *the* only wire that > fit, so good luck on a substitution. Good thing you > know that rep, that is big luck! > > --- End, quoted text from Igor --- > > Cheers, > Thom Subject: RE: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:11:37 -0700 From: Schei, Kenneth, Schei, Kenneth To: 'teres@aiko.com' Thanks Manfred. I wonder if we really need the voltmeter; I agree with Igor that minimum voltage is not the optimum setting - it seems that the best way to get the optimum setting is by ear, which kind of eliminates the need for a meter. Ken Ken Schei, P.E. Project Engineer Antarctic Support Associates Email address: scheike@asa.org Phone: 303-643-0163 > -----Original Message----- > From: MHuber@t-online.de [SMTP:MHuber@t-online.de] > Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:48 AM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary > > Thom, > > >(1) A/C wall wart vs. external transformer in a box: > > Here is what I would do: (but I'm only the developer of the circuit ): > > DigiKey has an ac wall-wart #MT7105-ND (see > http://www.digikey.com/EC/V3/549.pdf) > with screw terminals at about $10. Use this together with a good quality > shielded twisted > pair cable (AWG24) to the drive unit. Connect the shield of the cable to > safety ground at > the wall-wart and to the motor housing on the other end. If at a later > point in time > you feel that you want a 'better' supply (personally I can't see why this > would be the case) > then write off the $10 for the wall-wart and go ahead. > > >(2) Specifying a small analog voltmeter to facilitate belt tension > >adjustment. > > This is a matter of personal taste. I don't have one and I sure don't miss > it. > My personal experience is that it is not hard to get the belt tension > right. > > The few $ for the meter are not the main problem but consider the work > that has to > be done to integrate the meter seamlessly into the motor housing. > I have implemented the controller in a way that it only needs a > single pushbutton in order to keep the mechanical work needed to > a minimum. > > >A couple of observations about the kit are in order. While most of the > >group is fairly experienced at building stuff, there are a couple of > folks > >who will need a support network. > > What we need most is somebody who is willing to write an instruction > manual. > I can supply the needed information but someone else will have to do the > editing. I consider my english not good enough for this and for this > reason > it would take me a lot of time. > > It would be best if the person writing the hardware assembly instructions > would also build the first prototype and write down his experiences > during the building process. > > Regards > Manfred > > > ------------------ > Manfred Huber > MHuber@t-online.de > ------------------ > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:46:58 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Manfred, The smaller recess is an excellent suggestion, but... More holes can be drilled than used at any time for adequate attachment, though vibration transfer would improve with extra screws. Igor --- Manfred Huber wrote: > Chris, > > two suggestions: > > Use three screws to mount the motor. > Make the diameter of the recess as small as > possible, 28mm is enough. > > Regards > Manfred > > > > > > ------------------ > Manfred Huber > MHuber@t-online.de > ------------------ > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:11:25 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com I echo these sentiments. Peter C ----- Original Message ----- From: "Schei, Kenneth" To: Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 9:07 AM Subject: RE: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary > Thom: I don't think that a separate transformer itself will cost much more > than a wall-wart. Any significant additional cost would be for the > filtering and conditioning which would be required for either transformer. > Will the PC board contain the power filtering or is it only the motor > controller circuitry? As far as meters go, I would prefer something > vintage-looking, and I would not put an LCD display on any of my equipment. > I prefer the early Dr. Frankenstein look. > > Ken > > Ken Schei, P.E. > Project Engineer > Antarctic Support Associates > Email address: scheike@asa.org > Phone: 303-643-0163 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella [SMTP:tmackris@earthlink.net] > > Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 1:49 AM > > To: Teres_List > > Subject: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary > > > > All, > > > > > > (1) A/C wall wart vs. external transformer in a box: > > > > My guess is that the group will split over the issue of A/C wall-wart > > vs a transformer in a box. The cost differential may amount to $40.00 or > > so > > between the two (this is probably a high guess). Once we get more > > information, we can individually decide the path we wish to take. The > > numbers are so large, that I'll bet the pricing would be favorable for > > both > > options in any event. > > > > (2) Specifying a small analog voltmeter to facilitate belt tension > > adjustment. > > > > This hasn't received much discussion. BTW, I liked Igor's comment > > that > > the best voltage to run the motor should be "minimum, plus a bit" to take > > belt slippage into account. I privately spoke with Chris about ordering > > meters, and if memory serves (I haven't personally researched this), he's > > found some small, cute analog meters that would look way cool on our motor > > mounts (no LCD displays on our analog rigs ). > > > > If the price is only $5.00 or so, I'm suggesting that this be a > > standard part of the kit for reasons of (a) repeatiblity of setup as well > > as > > (b) to simplify Chris's life in assembling the kits. > > > > Unless I'm missing something (entirely possible), I suggest that the > > transformer choice be the *only* option, since all of the other decisions > > are of insignificant financial consequence and at worst, as was suggested > > elsewhere, you'll have a few bucks worth of parts for your parts bin. > > Addidionally, I think you'll all agree that even if your tastes differ > > from > > Chris slightly, he always chooses parts that have a classy look so you > > won't > > end up with some chintzy looking parts. > > > > I'd suggest that when the time comes to make your selection (sometime next > > week?) that you title your e-mail "votes" to Chris with some descriptive > > words like: "Yes-Teres A/C Wall-Wart" or "Yes-Teres External > > Transformer". > > If you can cut 'n paste these subjects into your e-mails to Chris, this > > would greatly simplify his mail filtering (picture having to consolidate > > and > > tally 40 orders). > > > > This e-mail will serve to: (1) re-affirm that you want a motor/controller > > kit and (2) which option you've selected. I think that re-affirming > > orders > > would be a good thing, since we did have some dropouts late in the > > bearing/platter stage. Granted, anyone who got this far is committed (or > > should be committed ), but this wouldn't hurt. > > > > A couple of observations about the kit are in order. While most of the > > group is fairly experienced at building stuff, there are a couple of folks > > who will need a support network. Most of these people are within driving > > distance of others, but I'd hate to make that assumption. For this reason > > as well as in reply to Steve Z's plea to make his project backlog as > > minimal > > as possible, I'm suggesting that we attempt to complie a complete kit, > > perhaps even down to the last nut and bolt. We should ask ourselves how > > Ron > > Welborne would supply this. > > > > One exception to the above would be that for those who are opting for an > > A/C > > transformer (as opposed to a wall-wart), we could specify a part number > > for > > a ($6-$10) Radio Shack box which anyone can purchase either directly or > > off > > the web. > > > > 1. The main "Kit" > > > > a) Maxon Motor. > > b) Pulley. > > c) Motor mounting plate - 1/4" to 3/8" thick. > > d) Printed Circuit Board > > e) All parts to stuff the board (incl. LED's & switch). > > f) A/C wall-wart or external transformer > > g) A small volt meter (dial display, not LCD) ?? > > h) Misc. parts amortized over the entire order - compiler, board to > > "burn > > in the code", etc. > > > > Extra Stuff (If external power transformer is specified): > > > > a) Combination IEC plug / "Corcom" line filter for transformer box. > > b) Fuses > > c) Umbilical cord to link transformer to controller. > > d) Male & female connectors for umbilical. > > e) Case (to be purchased individually by each member). > > > > With respect to external transformers, there have been two suggestions so > > far: > > > > Jon Lane has offered to research a beefy power transformer and I suspect > > that being local, it will be an easy matter for him to keep Chris > > apprised > > by phone or e-mail. > > > > DARN !! I can't find the other e-mail I received today! I filed it > > somewhere :-(( Was it Peter Clark who had a part number for a $10.00 > > transformer recommended in an Audio Amateur article? > > > > Umbilical cord for external transformer: > > > > Steve Z. may have wholesale access to the Belden cable that Igor specified > > for our Super It mods - Belden #8424. I'm not trying to put Steve on the > > spot here (yeah, right ). This stuff is indeed very flexible as Igor > > describes, and for those of you who will end up "floating" your entire > > motor > > pod & subchassis as one assembly, the flexibility is most beneficial. I'm > > attaching Igor's comments from a private e-mail on this cable: > > > > --- Begin quoted text from Igor --- > > > > The wire you will need for the PS to It umbilical > > is Belden's #8424, which is a braid *shielded* quad > > 20-gauge configuration in a limply soft EPDM black > > jacket. > > > > It ran about $76/100' last I looked. Do not > > substite for it unless what you find as flexible (so > > it must have a rubber jacket, PVC is too stiff),no > > larger in diameter(this is the largest that will fit), > > has a braided (not foil which is too stiff) shield, > > has 4 high-quality copper stranded (for flexibility) > > conductors of no less than 20 gauge. In short,at the > > time that I spent over 30 hours trying to find this > > combination of features, and then struggled to get > > only a few feet of it, this was *the* only wire that > > fit, so good luck on a substitution. Good thing you > > know that rep, that is big luck! > > > > --- End, quoted text from Igor --- > > > > Cheers, > > Thom > Subject: Re: [teres] Subchassis Design Layout Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:14:56 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Igor, >(Manfred, or Chris, *does* it use that optical >pickup?) Yes it does. Nothing changed in this regard. >So long as this is so, it might as well be >bonded with some of this isodamp, no? Can't see any reason against this. I will soon open a thread on the strobe disk issue. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: RE: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:15:11 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Kenneth, >Will the PC board contain the power filtering or is it only the motor >controller circuitry? It has a full bridge rectifier (schottky) and filter cap. At the moment I'm thinking about some additional HF filtering. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Dr. Frankenstein Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:20:39 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fritz Moore" To: Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 10:54 AM Subject: [teres] Dr. Frankenstein > > > I prefer the early Dr. Frankenstein look. I use the term, "Mad Scientist Look," which includes the Saturday Morning Serial Look (Martians in leather football helmets, etc., etc.) Peter C Subject: RE: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:39:55 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: 'teres@aiko.com' I vote for a kit sans meter. KISS (or maybe, KI$$) and also strikes me as an area for individual customization. Steve Z On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Schei, Kenneth wrote: > Thanks Manfred. I wonder if we really need the voltmeter; I agree with Igor > that minimum voltage is not the optimum setting - it seems that the best way > to get the optimum setting is by ear, which kind of eliminates the need for > a meter. > > Ken > > Ken Schei, P.E. > Project Engineer > Antarctic Support Associates > Email address: scheike@asa.org > Phone: 303-643-0163 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: MHuber@t-online.de [SMTP:MHuber@t-online.de] > > Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:48 AM > > To: teres@aiko.com > > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary > > > > Thom, > > > > >(1) A/C wall wart vs. external transformer in a box: > > > > Here is what I would do: (but I'm only the developer of the circuit ): > > > > DigiKey has an ac wall-wart #MT7105-ND (see > > http://www.digikey.com/EC/V3/549.pdf) > > with screw terminals at about $10. Use this together with a good quality > > shielded twisted > > pair cable (AWG24) to the drive unit. Connect the shield of the cable to > > safety ground at > > the wall-wart and to the motor housing on the other end. If at a later > > point in time > > you feel that you want a 'better' supply (personally I can't see why this > > would be the case) > > then write off the $10 for the wall-wart and go ahead. > > > > >(2) Specifying a small analog voltmeter to facilitate belt tension > > >adjustment. > > > > This is a matter of personal taste. I don't have one and I sure don't miss > > it. > > My personal experience is that it is not hard to get the belt tension > > right. > > > > The few $ for the meter are not the main problem but consider the work > > that has to > > be done to integrate the meter seamlessly into the motor housing. > > I have implemented the controller in a way that it only needs a > > single pushbutton in order to keep the mechanical work needed to > > a minimum. > > > > >A couple of observations about the kit are in order. While most of the > > >group is fairly experienced at building stuff, there are a couple of > > folks > > >who will need a support network. > > > > What we need most is somebody who is willing to write an instruction > > manual. > > I can supply the needed information but someone else will have to do the > > editing. I consider my english not good enough for this and for this > > reason > > it would take me a lot of time. > > > > It would be best if the person writing the hardware assembly instructions > > would also build the first prototype and write down his experiences > > during the building process. > > > > Regards > > Manfred > > > > > > ------------------ > > Manfred Huber > > MHuber@t-online.de > > ------------------ > > > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 13:25:09 -0700 From: Jeremy Epstein, Jeremy Epstein To: teres@aiko.com; MHuber@t-online.de Manfred Huber wrote: > > Peter, > > >Does the controller allow the option of 78rpm? > > No, it works only at 33 1/3 and 45 rpm. > While it would not be hard to build a version that works > at 78rpm this would necessitate compromises in the control > at 33 1/3 rpm > > Regards > Manfred > > ------------------ > Manfred Huber > MHuber@t-online.de > ------------------ Manfred - would you explain the feasibility of creating a dedicated, SIMPLE, 78-RPM control as an adjunct, very quick & dirty, just as a little exta added attraction for those of us with 1/2 dozen treasured 78's they'd like to tape or burn to CD? Not fully-featured/logic-driven like the main control circuit, just something one could swap in on a limited basis now and then? -j, who'd like to hear his 78 copy of Jackie Brenston's "Rocket 88" one of these days -- ========================================= Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com ========================================= Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 13:37:51 -0700 From: StepHydro@aol.com, StepHydro@aol.com To: teres@aiko.com; MHuber@t-online.de In a message dated 03/02/2000 2: Manfred - would you explain the feasibility of creating a dedicated, > SIMPLE, 78-RPM control as an adjunct, very quick & dirty, just as a > little exta added attraction for those of us with 1/2 dozen treasured > 78's they'd like to tape or burn to CD? Not fully-featured/logic-driven > like the main control circuit, just something one could swap in on a > limited basis now and then? > > -j, who'd like to hear his 78 copy of Jackie Brenston's "Rocket 88" one > of these days Jeremy, Easy way??? Make an extra pulley that uses the 45 or 33.3 motor speed. Oops, maybe I missed something about feedback control, in which case, "never mind". But if we are controlling open loop, no reason not to make a pulley with the right ratio of diameter. Cheers/Carron Subject: RE: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 15:17:59 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'teres@aiko.com' I for one will eventually source a voltmeter, but at the same time, I've come to agree that it should stay out of a kit. It appears to be a difficult task to find a meter that's small enough to fit on the motor plate which is the only place where those who choose the cylindrical tower (motor "pod") approach could fit one. By jove! I think we've spec'd out all of the kit options, except for final pulley & motor plate dimensions. My reason for wanting to source a voltmeter is plain and simple - it looks way cool. Additionally, if I end up using recording tape for a belt, I'd like some form of reassurance that I didn't clumsily nudge the motor pod, stressing the bearings unnecessarily. I like the idea of repeatablity in my equipment setups, and adjusting belt tension by ear *each* time means that I'll be spending more time listening to "reference" records (I hate that term) than I'd prefer. I've made more of my music collection unlistenable by turning it into reference records:-(( Getting the VTA / antiskate / azimuth setup is more than enough "tuning by ear" for me thank you. I don't see how the fact that the minimum voltage is not what we're after invalidates the use of a voltmeter. We'll still settle on a voltage reading that sounds the best, write it down and have an easily repeatable setting. If I end up preferring a rubber belt, this radial load on the bearing will become less of an issue of course. I think the only way the voltmeter violates the KISS principle is in the same way that hand rubbing an extra 10 coats of lacquer on a piece of woodwork does - they both look way cool (to me) introducing some extra labor but no systemic complexity. Cheers, Thom -----Original Message----- From: Schei, Kenneth [mailto:SCHEIKE@asa.org] Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 1:36 PM To: 'teres@aiko.com' Subject: RE: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary I agree. Ken > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Zettel [SMTP:zettel@libby.org] > Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 11:36 AM > To: 'teres@aiko.com' > Subject: RE: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary > > I vote for a kit sans meter. KISS (or maybe, KI$$) and also strikes me as > an area for individual customization. > > Steve Z > > On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Schei, Kenneth wrote: > > > Thanks Manfred. I wonder if we really need the voltmeter; I agree with > Igor > > that minimum voltage is not the optimum setting - it seems that the best > way > > to get the optimum setting is by ear, which kind of eliminates the need > for > > a meter. > > > > Ken > > > > Ken Schei, P.E. > > Project Engineer > > Antarctic Support Associates > > Email address: scheike@asa.org > > Phone: 303-643-0163 > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: MHuber@t-online.de [SMTP:MHuber@t-online.de] > > > Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:48 AM > > > To: teres@aiko.com > > > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary > > > > > > Thom, > > > > > > >(1) A/C wall wart vs. external transformer in a box: > > > > > > Here is what I would do: (but I'm only the developer of the circuit > ): > > > > > > DigiKey has an ac wall-wart #MT7105-ND (see > > > http://www.digikey.com/EC/V3/549.pdf) > > > with screw terminals at about $10. Use this together with a good > quality > > > shielded twisted > > > pair cable (AWG24) to the drive unit. Connect the shield of the cable > to > > > safety ground at > > > the wall-wart and to the motor housing on the other end. If at a later > > > point in time > > > you feel that you want a 'better' supply (personally I can't see why > this > > > would be the case) > > > then write off the $10 for the wall-wart and go ahead. > > > > > > >(2) Specifying a small analog voltmeter to facilitate belt tension > > > >adjustment. > > > > > > This is a matter of personal taste. I don't have one and I sure don't > miss > > > it. > > > My personal experience is that it is not hard to get the belt tension > > > right. > > > > > > The few $ for the meter are not the main problem but consider the work > > > that has to > > > be done to integrate the meter seamlessly into the motor housing. > > > I have implemented the controller in a way that it only needs a > > > single pushbutton in order to keep the mechanical work needed to > > > a minimum. > > > > > > >A couple of observations about the kit are in order. While most of > the > > > >group is fairly experienced at building stuff, there are a couple of > > > folks > > > >who will need a support network. > > > > > > What we need most is somebody who is willing to write an instruction > > > manual. > > > I can supply the needed information but someone else will have to do > the > > > editing. I consider my english not good enough for this and for this > > > reason > > > it would take me a lot of time. > > > > > > It would be best if the person writing the hardware assembly > instructions > > > would also build the first prototype and write down his experiences > > > during the building process. > > > > > > Regards > > > Manfred > > > > > > > > > ------------------ > > > Manfred Huber > > > MHuber@t-online.de > > > ------------------ > > > > > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:29:13 -0700 From: Roscoe Primrose, Roscoe Primrose To: teres@aiko.com Steve Zettel wrote: > > I vote for a kit sans meter. KISS (or maybe, KI$$) and also strikes me as > an area for individual customization. > Or, maybe a set of pin jacks so you can hook up your trusty multi-meter for testing. Peace -- Roscoe Primrose -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe -- "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:32:34 -0700 From: Roscoe Primrose, Roscoe Primrose To: teres@aiko.com Jeremy Epstein wrote: > > Manfred Huber wrote: > > > > Peter, > > > > >Does the controller allow the option of 78rpm? > > > > No, it works only at 33 1/3 and 45 rpm. > > While it would not be hard to build a version that works > > at 78rpm this would necessitate compromises in the control > > at 33 1/3 rpm > > > > Regards > > Manfred > > > > ------------------ > > Manfred Huber > > MHuber@t-online.de > > ------------------ > > Manfred - would you explain the feasibility of creating a dedicated, > SIMPLE, 78-RPM control as an adjunct, very quick & dirty, just as a > little exta added attraction for those of us with 1/2 dozen treasured > 78's they'd like to tape or burn to CD? Not fully-featured/logic-driven > like the main control circuit, just something one could swap in on a > limited basis now and then? > > -j, who'd like to hear his 78 copy of Jackie Brenston's "Rocket 88" one > of these days > -- I'd imagine that for limited use a simple adjustable regulator with an LM317 and a pot for the reference resistor would work just fine... Easy to implement too, as long as you've got an easy disconnect between the motor controller and the motor. Peace -- Roscoe Primrose -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe -- "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:49:35 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com > I think the only way the voltmeter violates the KISS principle is in the > same way that hand rubbing an extra 10 coats of lacquer on a piece of > woodwork does - they both look way cool (to me) introducing some extra labor > but no systemic complexity. > > Cheers, > Thom I agree. And certainly will do the volt meter if I can find one that will fit. I'm sure I'll wind up setting the whole unassembled pile in the middle of the living room floor, brewing up another pot of joe and dreaming up something as Buck Rogers as I can get. Since there's no way to hide this beast, may as well make it entertaining to look at as well. Peter C Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:50:46 -0700 From: MaughanAudio@aol.com, MaughanAudio@aol.com To: teres@aiko.com I could always experiment with a couple of square feet of CN-38. The split bobbin x-former (Signal Transformer PN A41-25-10) sounds like a good choice. Subject: RE: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 05:38:27 -0700 From: Tony Bombera, Tony Bombera To: teres@aiko.com Chris, I am also suggesting brass for the mounting plate. Tony Bombera > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Schei, Kenneth > Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 10:45 AM > To: 'teres@aiko.com' > Subject: RE: [teres] Motor/supply kit > > > Chris: Great work on the motor mounting plate. I would prefer brass to > aluminum. > > Ken > > Ken Schei, P.E. > Project Engineer > Antarctic Support Associates > Email address: scheike@asa.org > Phone: 303-643-0163 > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Paul Croft [SMTP:pcroft@iximd.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 9:15 PM > > To: teres@aiko.com > > Subject: RE: [teres] Motor/supply kit > > > > This sounds great, Chris! Let's go for the more expensive one. What the > > heck, in for a nickel, in for a dime. > > Cheers, > > Paul > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > > > Chris Brady > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 12:29 PM > > > To: teres@aiko.com > > > Subject: [teres] Motor/supply kit > > > > > > > > > I am wondering if there would be interest in including > > > a motor mounting plate in the motor/controller kit. > > > > (snip...) > > > > However, we could > > > also opt for a more expensive design made from 1/4 - 3/8" > > > aluminum with nice recessed holes for cap screws and an > > > anodized finish. The thicker plate may not work any better > > > but it would sure look sweet. > > > > > > Chris > > > > Subject: RE: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 06:02:59 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com Hi Chris, This is to re-affirm that I need the motor kit, also. Thanks! Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Chris Brady > Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 10:30 AM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary > > > With Manfreds excellent suggestion for transformers I think > that I have sourced and priced all of the parts for the motor > controller. I am waiting for a price from Bryce on the pulley > and mounting plate and also a price estimate from Ron for the > circuit boards. I hope to have a total price for the kits early > next week. The price will be based on an order of 30+ kits. > So far 28 have expressed interest in a kit and I suspect that there > are a few more that will want a kit that I have not heard from. > (some very good stuff snipped...) > Chris > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 14:52:57 -0700 From: William B, William B To: teres@aiko.com Hey Chris, Just a quick to to clearly indicate the group's decision regarding the transformers (toroid preferred), voltmeter and LED/+ is acceptable to me... and to confirm my participation (again) to purchase the motor / controller. I do lament that my "design" participation has been minimal if none existent; the VP of Nursing "burned out" 7 weeks ago and I continue to pull her load and mine... tough department too! Enough whining... I am back on the job like stink on a monkey. bill -----Original Message----- From: Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com Date: Thursday, March 02, 2000 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Kit Requisitioning Summary >With Manfreds excellent suggestion for transformers I think >that I have sourced and priced all of the parts for the motor >controller. I am waiting for a price from Bryce on the pulley >and mounting plate and also a price estimate from Ron for the >circuit boards. I hope to have a total price for the kits early >next week. The price will be based on an order of 30+ kits. >So far 28 have expressed interest in a kit and I suspect that there >are a few more that will want a kit that I have not heard from. > >Now for some of the details that Thom enumerated. > >1) Transformer - Manfreds transformer suggestions look very good. > I would like to keep this process simple, but offering a choice > of transformers makes sense. Here's the info on the xfmrs: > > - DigiKey pn MT7105-ND a 14vac 850ma wall wart with screw > terminals with a qty 10 price of $10.46 > > - DigiKey pn TE70040-ND a 114vac 714ma toroidal xfmr (very > nice) with a qty 10 price of $12.84 > > Hopefully these xfmrs will satisfy everyone's needs and they are > reasonably priced. If we get orders for less than 10 of each the > price will increase by about $2.00. > >2) Voltage meter - I like the idea of a meter even though it is not > a must. However, the prices were $15 and up and I was unable to > find small (1" or less) meters. Based on this I am inclined to not > include a meter in the kit. > >3) Switch and LEDs - I think that I have come up with a good compromise > for this issue. I went to a local surplus store yesterday and found > a small, very nice looking pushbutton switch for only 75 cents. I > will plan to include this switch in the kit, toss it if you don't > like it. I also decided to include a slick 2 color (red/green) LED > in the kit. It is only 54 cents and I think that it will appeal to > to the majority of the kit builders. Radio Shack has a nice chrome > bezel that you can mount the LED in it strikes your fancy. > > My plan was to only include these cosmetic items if they were cheap > and I thought that they would have a wide appeal. I think that these > fit the bill. > >Chris > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Pod Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 21:41:25 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Peter, Does this help? (see below) Igor --- phclark wrote: > This has some merit, though I confess it sounds a > little Heath Robinson. > Perhaps you could flesh this out with some drawings? > > Peter C > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Igor Kuznetsoff" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 2:01 PM > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Pod > > > > All, > > Following the various factors & solutions > > discussed pertaining to motor pod design & > > implementation, I had yet another thought for > > consideration. I suppose some of you wish I would > run > > out of them by now, but I can't help it. This > > concerns the underpinnings of the pod. While I am > > sure that we will end up with a variety of > techniques > > employed, I would like to suggest a novel > > configuration which would probably not normally be > > considered. > > What I have in mind is pursuant to my > previous > > suggestion that there should be enough compliance > in > > the motor/platter axis to allow a belt tensioning > > scheme to do its thing unhindered, so that it can > be > > repeatably calibrateable. My suggestion today is > to > > place the motor pod on two, yes two, not three > (much > > less four) cones. > > [Double your pleasure/Double your fun/with two > cones, > > yes *two* cones on one.(axis) (viz. : Pretty twins > > holding two motor pods) ] > > Wouldn't this just fall over? Well, yes, if you > tried > > to stand this up by itself. To this end , > something > > like slightly shorter "training wheel" feet of > some > > sort could be added on the cross-axis, for > convenience > > during setup, or disuse. If, however, in use, > this > > was balanced (adding a simple, inexpensive bubble > > level to the top of the pod would be a good idea), > and > > the belt slipped on, and the belt tensioning set, > this > > rig will stand up nicely, and, this being the > > important thing, *belt tension will now be > dependent > > only on the tensioner setting*. Additionally, > > concentrating the weight upon just two cone > points, > > not three or more, couples the pod to the surface > it > > sits on even better. Should you not want this > tight > > coupling to implement your personal technical > > philosophy, or layout combinations, just use > something > > compliant instead of the two cones. Finding the > > balance points for placing the cones is simple > enough. > > If your pod is symmetrical, this is obvious, just > use > > the centerline. If it is not , due to the layout > of > > switches, power supply, whatever, just set the > > completed pod, minus the balancing weight (if you > go > > that route, which I suspect would be the most > popular > > for its simple neatness, not mention the > adaptability > > of old tonearms & their weights) on a dowel or > > something like that along the expected balance > axis. > > play with it until it balances neatly, mark the > > location, & mount the cones, or whatever, on that > > line. I would suggest exiting the wiring on the > > centerline somewhere to maintain balance. > > To sum up what could be the ideal pod > setup: > > The scheme outlined above, a belt tensioner rig, a > > voltmeter for setting the actual tension, a > rotateable > > motor mounting plate, a massive pod designed to > > dissipate vibration, and a lightweight metal > pulley > > with dual profiles. The belt, if flat, should > have a > > half twist. Feel free to add anything I've left > out. > > A thought about using the voltmeter might be > > worthwhile at this point. As the idea has been > > running so far, it is assumed that the lowest > voltage > > reading would correlate to the lowest tension > useable, > > and that would be the ideal setting for belt > tension. > > I disagree with that. I suspect that at that > lowest > > tension we would be running at the onset of > slippage, > > which would be very difficult to determine, > quantify, > > or even pin down sonically by ear, and this would > be > > an unwise condition. I posit that it would be a > > better regimen to find that lowest point, and > increase > > tension bias to just a bit above that to guarantee > the > > smoothest power transfer. > > > > Igor > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://im.yahoo.com > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: BltTnsDwg.jpg BltTnsDwg.jpg Type: JPEG Image (image/jpeg) Encoding: base64 Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Pod Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:04:33 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com I was right, it is Heath Robinson. And I still think it has merit. The first drawing I think is preferable as the weight position regulates, as distinguished from the second where the weight itself must be changed in order to regulate. Two point contact will do the trick. Makes the belt easy to change. One could utilize spare Krugerrands for the weights. Makes the motor easier to isolate. Obviates the necessity for an idler. I speculate that the bottom plate might be constructed eccentric to the motor housing to facilitate initial adjustment. A whiz with Statics could figure out how eccentric for a given motor assembly weight. With the motor mounted on the rotatable top plate, this should not create undesirable bearing wear that couldn't be compensated by periodic rotation, already under discussion. Maybe we could have the weight (absent spare Krugerrands) machined to match the arm counterweight. How's that for anal retentive? I actually think this is a slick idea, possessed of a certain elegance, since it kills so many birds with one stone. Thanks. Peter C ----- Original Message ----- From: "Igor Kuznetsoff" To: Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Pod > Peter, > Does this help? (see below) > > Igor > > > --- phclark wrote: > > This has some merit, though I confess it sounds a > > little Heath Robinson. > > Perhaps you could flesh this out with some drawings? > > > > Peter C > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Igor Kuznetsoff" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 2:01 PM > > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Pod > > > > > > > All, > > > Following the various factors & solutions > > > discussed pertaining to motor pod design & > > > implementation, I had yet another thought for > > > consideration. I suppose some of you wish I would > > run > > > out of them by now, but I can't help it. This > > > concerns the underpinnings of the pod. While I am > > > sure that we will end up with a variety of > > techniques > > > employed, I would like to suggest a novel > > > configuration which would probably not normally be > > > considered. > > > What I have in mind is pursuant to my > > previous > > > suggestion that there should be enough compliance > > in > > > the motor/platter axis to allow a belt tensioning > > > scheme to do its thing unhindered, so that it can > > be > > > repeatably calibrateable. My suggestion today is > > to > > > place the motor pod on two, yes two, not three > > (much > > > less four) cones. > > > [Double your pleasure/Double your fun/with two > > cones, > > > yes *two* cones on one.(axis) (viz. : Pretty twins > > > holding two motor pods) ] > > > Wouldn't this just fall over? Well, yes, if you > > tried > > > to stand this up by itself. To this end , > > something > > > like slightly shorter "training wheel" feet of > > some > > > sort could be added on the cross-axis, for > > convenience > > > during setup, or disuse. If, however, in use, > > this > > > was balanced (adding a simple, inexpensive bubble > > > level to the top of the pod would be a good idea), > > and > > > the belt slipped on, and the belt tensioning set, > > this > > > rig will stand up nicely, and, this being the > > > important thing, *belt tension will now be > > dependent > > > only on the tensioner setting*. Additionally, > > > concentrating the weight upon just two cone > > points, > > > not three or more, couples the pod to the surface > > it > > > sits on even better. Should you not want this > > tight > > > coupling to implement your personal technical > > > philosophy, or layout combinations, just use > > something > > > compliant instead of the two cones. Finding the > > > balance points for placing the cones is simple > > enough. > > > If your pod is symmetrical, this is obvious, just > > use > > > the centerline. If it is not , due to the layout > > of > > > switches, power supply, whatever, just set the > > > completed pod, minus the balancing weight (if you > > go > > > that route, which I suspect would be the most > > popular > > > for its simple neatness, not mention the > > adaptability > > > of old tonearms & their weights) on a dowel or > > > something like that along the expected balance > > axis. > > > play with it until it balances neatly, mark the > > > location, & mount the cones, or whatever, on that > > > line. I would suggest exiting the wiring on the > > > centerline somewhere to maintain balance. > > > To sum up what could be the ideal pod > > setup: > > > The scheme outlined above, a belt tensioner rig, a > > > voltmeter for setting the actual tension, a > > rotateable > > > motor mounting plate, a massive pod designed to > > > dissipate vibration, and a lightweight metal > > pulley > > > with dual profiles. The belt, if flat, should > > have a > > > half twist. Feel free to add anything I've left > > out. > > > A thought about using the voltmeter might be > > > worthwhile at this point. As the idea has been > > > running so far, it is assumed that the lowest > > voltage > > > reading would correlate to the lowest tension > > useable, > > > and that would be the ideal setting for belt > > tension. > > > I disagree with that. I suspect that at that > > lowest > > > tension we would be running at the onset of > > slippage, > > > which would be very difficult to determine, > > quantify, > > > or even pin down sonically by ear, and this would > > be > > > an unwise condition. I posit that it would be a > > > better regimen to find that lowest point, and > > increase > > > tension bias to just a bit above that to guarantee > > the > > > smoothest power transfer. > > > > > > Igor > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > > > http://im.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Pod Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:48:35 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Peter, Who is Heath Robinson? There was this last week: Also, in case you were not aware, Express Machining(the Lift folks) have released a replacement counterweight for the Rega http://www.expressmachining.com/heavy-wt/heavy.html Now, if you buy two of those... :-) Igor --- phclark wrote: > I was right, it is Heath Robinson. And I still > think it has merit. The > first drawing I think is preferable as the weight > position regulates, as > distinguished from the second where the weight > itself must be changed in > order to regulate. > > Two point contact will do the trick. > > Makes the belt easy to change. > > One could utilize spare Krugerrands for the weights. > > Makes the motor easier to isolate. > > Obviates the necessity for an idler. > > I speculate that the bottom plate might be > constructed eccentric to the > motor housing to facilitate initial adjustment. A > whiz with Statics could > figure out how eccentric for a given motor assembly > weight. With the motor > mounted on the rotatable top plate, this should not > create undesirable > bearing wear that couldn't be compensated by > periodic rotation, already > under discussion. > > Maybe we could have the weight (absent spare > Krugerrands) machined to match > the arm counterweight. How's that for anal > retentive? > > I actually think this is a slick idea, possessed of > a certain elegance, > since it kills so many birds with one stone. > Thanks. > > Peter C > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Igor Kuznetsoff" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 8:46 PM > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Pod > > > > Peter, > > Does this help? (see below) > > > > Igor > > > > > > --- phclark wrote: > > > This has some merit, though I confess it sounds > a > > > little Heath Robinson. > > > Perhaps you could flesh this out with some > drawings? > > > > > > Peter C > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Igor Kuznetsoff" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 2:01 PM > > > Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Pod > > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > Following the various factors & > solutions > > > > discussed pertaining to motor pod design & > > > > implementation, I had yet another thought for > > > > consideration. I suppose some of you wish I > would > > > run > > > > out of them by now, but I can't help it. This > > > > concerns the underpinnings of the pod. While > I am > > > > sure that we will end up with a variety of > > > techniques > > > > employed, I would like to suggest a novel > > > > configuration which would probably not > normally be > > > > considered. > > > > What I have in mind is pursuant to my > > > previous > > > > suggestion that there should be enough > compliance > > > in > > > > the motor/platter axis to allow a belt > tensioning > > > > scheme to do its thing unhindered, so that it > can > > > be > > > > repeatably calibrateable. My suggestion today > is > > > to > > > > place the motor pod on two, yes two, not three > > > (much > > > > less four) cones. > > > > [Double your pleasure/Double your fun/with two > > > cones, > > > > yes *two* cones on one.(axis) (viz. : Pretty > twins > > > > holding two motor pods) ] > > > > Wouldn't this just fall over? Well, yes, if > you > > > tried > > > > to stand this up by itself. To this end , > > > something > > > > like slightly shorter "training wheel" feet of > > > some > > > > sort could be added on the cross-axis, for > > > convenience > > > > during setup, or disuse. If, however, in use, > > > this > > > > was balanced (adding a simple, inexpensive > bubble > > > > level to the top of the pod would be a good > idea), > > > and > > > > the belt slipped on, and the belt tensioning > set, > > > this > > > > rig will stand up nicely, and, this being the > > > > important thing, *belt tension will now be > > > dependent > > > > only on the tensioner setting*. Additionally, > > > > concentrating the weight upon just two cone > > > points, > > > > not three or more, couples the pod to the > surface > > > it > > > > sits on even better. Should you not want this > > > tight > > > > coupling to implement your personal technical > > > > philosophy, or layout combinations, just use > > > something > > > > compliant instead of the two cones. Finding > the > > > > balance points for placing the cones is simple > > > enough. > > > > If your pod is symmetrical, this is obvious, > just > > > use > > > > the centerline. If it is not , due to the > layout > > > of > > > > switches, power supply, whatever, just set the > > > > completed pod, minus the balancing weight (if > you > > > go > > > > that route, which I suspect would be the most > > > popular > > > > for its simple neatness, not mention the > > > adaptability > > > > of old tonearms & their weights) on a dowel or > > > > something like that along the expected balance > > > axis. > > > > play with it until it balances neatly, mark > the > > > > location, & mount the cones, or whatever, on > that > > > > line. I would suggest exiting the wiring on > the > > > > centerline somewhere to maintain balance. > > > > To sum up what could be the ideal pod > > > setup: > > > > The scheme outlined above, a belt tensioner > rig, a > > > > voltmeter for setting the actual tension, a > > > rotateable > > > > motor mounting plate, a massive pod designed > to > > > > dissipate vibration, and a lightweight metal > > > pulley > > > > with dual profiles. The belt, if flat, should > > > have a > > > > half twist. Feel free to add anything I've > left > > > out. > > > > A thought about using the voltmeter > might be > > > > worthwhile at this point. As the idea has > been > > > > running so far, it is assumed that the lowest > > > voltage > > > > reading would correlate to the lowest tension > > > useable, > > > > and that would be the ideal setting for belt > > > tension. > > > > I disagree with that. I suspect that at that > > > lowest > > > > tension we would be running at the onset of > > > slippage, > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: [teres] Motor Pod Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 00:18:12 -0700 From: Jon Lane, Jon Lane To: teres@aiko.com > Peter, > Does this help? (see below) > > Igor Gentlemen, Respectfully, the pivoting motor assumes a round belt, right? The geometry is compounded with this arrangement making flat belts (magnetic tape) impossible to use. Such belts will chafe the pulley and run against one or the other rim depending on motor tilt. I've been taking the following as truths: 1. A slightly radiused pulley for self centering a flat belt. 2. Solidly fixing the motor against as much mass as possible. 3. Pursuant both of these, orienting the motor shaft absolutely vertical with respect to the platter rim. >From there, a variety of tensioning methods can be used from merely sliding the motor base away from the platter to using a idler. Investigations into instrumentation drives reveals the latter is common - I'd intended to use it myself. A spring-tensioned idler using a quiet rotating pulley would be simple, cheap and effective. And self-tending. But tilting the motor from perfectly vertical eliminates the flat belt option. Is the pulley design decided on at this point? Jon lane Subject: RE: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 00:22:28 -0700 From: Jon Lane, Jon Lane To: teres@aiko.com My vote goes for including the latter, Chris. Jon Lane > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com > [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Chris Brady > Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 10:29 AM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: [teres] Motor/supply kit > > > I am wondering if there would be interest in including > a motor mounting plate in the motor/controller kit. > I expect that there will be a lot of different shapes and > sizes of motor pods, but perhaps we can agree on a single > mounting plate design and benefit from a quantity > discount. > > I am thinking that a round mounting plate, say 4" > in diameter > with mounting holes around the edge would work > for either a > round or rectangular motor pod. We could each > make our own > but with enough units they could be precision made on a NC > mill at a reasonable cost. If made from fairly > thin aluminum > (1/16 - 1/8") it would be inexpensive. However, we could > also opt for a more expensive design made from 1/4 - 3/8" > aluminum with nice recessed holes for cap screws and an > anodized finish. The thicker plate may not work > any better > but it would sure look sweet. > > Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Motor/supply kit Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 09:55:19 -0700 From: Jeremy Epstein, Jeremy Epstein To: teres@aiko.com Manfred Huber wrote: > To implement the 78-RPM speed in a way that it holds up to > my standards and does not negatively influence the control at 33rpm > would mean a major redesign of the controller. If I did this it would > set us back about 4 weeks. Forget it, at least as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for the effort in examination. > >Not fully-featured/logic-driven > >like the main control circuit, just something one could swap in on a > >limited basis now and then? > > As someone already pointed out you can use a variable voltage regulator > like an LM317 or LT1086 to apply a manually settable voltage to the motor. > A DPDT switch could be used to switch from uP mode to manual mode. That seems feasible. This would work well enough for a few spins here and there, just an LM317, a trim pot and a couple of resistors I guess. Any idea where to get a 78 rpm strobe pattern? -j -- ========================================= Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com ========================================= Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Pod Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 04:35:58 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Steve, >you have actually had this system in operation and have real, >experential data with your motor, controller, and drive/mounting system. Yes, but it is still possible that someone else will come to a different conclusion. >Everyone "knows" a separate power supply and transformer are "better" than >a nasty wall-wart, Why are wall-warts known to be bad? I think this comes from the bad performance of the cheap so-called dc units that use a cheesy Si diode that rings like hell as a one way rectifier. The watt-wart I recommend is nothing more than a power transformer that comes ready to use in a housing. >and a toroid has got to be better than an EI core. . . Common wisdom tends to simplify things. A toroid ins not better or worse than a EI core, it is different. Both types have their pros and cons. Toroids are physically small and have small stray fields. No the other hand they saturate with very small dc components on the ac line. The very good coupling properties of toroids are very desirable for signal transformers as they give good bandwidth. No the other hand this also means that a toroidal power transformer tends to provide less attenuation to ac line noise than a cheap EI transformer! Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Motor Pod Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:45:25 -0700 From: MaughanAudio@aol.com, MaughanAudio@aol.com To: teres@aiko.com I agree with Manfred, a split C core (twin bobbin) would be much better than a toroid. I want to reduce pick up sources from more AC Line contamination, that is why I won't use a wall wort. I will mount the AC x-former in a potted box that will be physically a least a meter away from the turntable and motor assembly. A wall wort would be fine if it 1) had a shielded case and 2) had shielded DC output leads. Subject: [teres] Newbie motor questions Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:50:49 -0700 From: Zack Winestine, Zack Winestine To: teres@aiko.com Hello - I've just joined and would like to briefly introduce myself. I've been on Phonogram and Analogue-Addicts for some time, and have spent the past year assembling/repairing an analog rig which I am currently very happy with (a used Townshend Rock Mk3, Origin Live modded RB250, Grado Sonata). I met Steve Zettel through Phonogram, and when he heard I was investigating a DC motor upgrade for my 'table he mentioned this group and suggested I might be interested in the DC motor kit you are putting together. I've read the email digests on the website, and it seems like a very impressive piece of engineering. I would like to put in an order for the motor and controller, but have some concerns regarding whether they would be appropriate for my existing set-up (my apologies if Steve Z. already posted these questions to the group). 1. As I understand it, the motor with its 1/2" pulley is being set-up to drive a belt which will fit around the perimeter of your platter. On my table the belt would drive a subplatter which is of much narrower diameter than the platter. Will I compromise the performance of the motor/controller by having to run the motor at a speed substantially slower than intended by the design? 2. Also, the mass of my platter (1" acrylic) is significantly less than the platter in your design, and there will be doubtless differences in bearing friction -- I'm a bit concerned this will make a hash out of your group's efforts to design a controller specified to produce minimum resonances for your specific turntable. 3. As I understand it, the controller is governed by a sensor which reads a stroboscopic disk attached to the bottom of the platter. I have only about 9/16" clearance between the bottom of my platter and the plinth. Does anyone know if this is sufficent space to mount the sensor, and/or if some alternative arrangement is possible? 4. Lastly, would anyone be able to suggest a source for a box or chassis of some kind to house the controller components? Are the dimensions of the circuit board established yet? Thanks in advance for any help, and for allowing me to potentially piggy-back onto your efforts! Best wishes, Zack Winestine ______________ The STATES OF CONTROL website www.statesofcontrol.com Subject: Re: [teres] Newbie motor questions Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 02:24:18 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Zack, >1. As I understand it, the motor with its 1/2" pulley is being set-up to >drive a belt which will fit around the perimeter of your platter. On my >table the belt would drive a subplatter which is of much narrower diameter >than the platter. Will I compromise the performance of the >motor/controller by having to run the motor at a speed substantially >slower than intended by the design? Order the kit sans Pulley and build yourself a smaller pulley that allows for a motor speed of about 800rpm. The bearings of the Motor will not be happy with speeds below 500rpm. >2. Also, the mass of my platter (1" acrylic) is significantly less than >the platter in your design, and there will be doubtless differences in >bearing friction -- I'm a bit concerned this will make a hash out of your >group's efforts to design a controller specified to produce minimum >resonances for your specific turntable. I can see no problem in this regard. I wouldn't know what to change. >3. As I understand it, the controller is governed by a sensor which reads >a stroboscopic disk attached to the bottom of the platter. I have only >about 9/16" clearance between the bottom of my platter and the >plinth. Does anyone know if this is sufficent space to mount the sensor, >and/or if some alternative arrangement is possible? No problem. 3/20" is all you need. >4. Lastly, would anyone be able to suggest a source for a box or chassis >of some kind to house the controller components? Are the dimensions of >the circuit board established yet? As it looks now the controller board will be shaped like a donut with an outer diameter of about 4" and an inner diameter of about 1.2". The board can be mounted directly to the back side of the motor mounting plate (d=4.75"). >Thanks in advance for any help, and for allowing me to potentially >piggy-back onto your efforts! You're welcome. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Newbie motor questions Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:44:36 -0700 From: Zack Winestine, Zack Winestine To: teres@aiko.com On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Manfred Huber wrote: Zack wrote: > >1. As I understand it, the motor with its 1/2" pulley is being set-up to > >drive a belt which will fit around the perimeter of your platter. On my > >table the belt would drive a subplatter which is of much narrower diameter > >than the platter. Will I compromise the performance of the > >motor/controller by having to run the motor at a speed substantially > >slower than intended by the design? > > Order the kit sans Pulley and build yourself a smaller pulley that > allows for a motor speed of about 800rpm. The bearings of the Motor > will not be happy with speeds below 500rpm. Manfred - Thank you for your very complete reply to my questions! I'm guessing that I would need a crown pulley of about 3/16" diameter (my subplatter is 4.25" diameter, and I would need a motor pulley which will allow the motor to run approximately 24 times faster than the subplatter). This is a smaller diameter than any tt motor pulley I've previously seen (not that I've seen that many); is there any reason to be concerned that I will run into difficulties with the belt not making proper contact with the pulley? (crown pulley with a flat belt). Also, have any list members scouted out a source which might have such a crown pulley? Thanks again, Zack ______________ The STATES OF CONTROL website www.statesofcontrol.com Subject: Re: [teres] Newbie motor questions Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 10:49:34 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Zack, >This is a smaller diameter than any tt motor pulley I've previously seen >(not that I've seen that many); I've seen such a small diameter used in conjunction with a flat rubber belt in Thorens players. >is there any reason to be concerned that I will run into difficulties with the belt not making >proper contact with the pulley? (crown pulley with a flat belt). I guess this depends very much on the belt material. If the material has a high coefficient of friction like rubber AND it is thin enough to easily bend around the pulley then there should be no big problem. I once tried Magnetic tape which is fairly slippery directly on a 5/64" motor shaft and it (kind of) worked. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Newbie motor questions Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 16:39:52 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 3/9/00 09:43, Manfred Huber at MHuber@t-online.de wrote: > Zack, > >> This is a smaller diameter than any tt motor pulley I've previously seen >> (not that I've seen that many); > > I've seen such a small diameter used in conjunction with a flat rubber belt > in Thorens players. > >> is there any reason to be concerned that I will run into difficulties with >> the belt not making >> proper contact with the pulley? (crown pulley with a flat belt). > > I guess this depends very much on the belt material. If the material has a > high coefficient of friction like rubber AND it is thin enough to easily bend > around > the pulley then there should be no big problem. I once tried Magnetic tape > which is > fairly slippery directly on a 5/64" motor shaft and it (kind of) worked. > > Regards > Manfred Zack, et al The latest C & H Tools (and surplus) catalog lists "neoprene rubber o-rings, usable as belts, 16" circumference" for the princely sum of $1.00. Not a flat belt, but with it's high coeff of friction and a grooved pulley, might work very well with a small diameter pulley. Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] Strobo disc Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 04:01:52 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Igor, > If it doesn't, a fixatif or clear plastic spray >could be used over plain/sticky backed/plain paper, >or, perhaps better, heavier stock photo paper, like >the fairly common 65 lb. either glossy or flat stuff. Be careful with this! I also tried to protect the toner by applying plastic spray. The result was that the contrast for IR light was gone because the plastic spray behaved reflective! >I just wonder about how long the sticky backed stuff >will stay stuck to the *underside* of the platter. This depends on the type of sticky tape you use. My strobe disc is attached to the platter for about 18 month now and it looks like at the first day. The tape I used is normally used for bonding carpets to the floor. This is not the foam or textile stuff you find on most places but a clear plastic film with a layer of acrylic adhesive on both sides. This stuff sticks for ever and a day and it can be completely removed from the platter if necessary. >Perhaps the best option would be to use >double-sticky-sided CN12 plus the heavy photo paper. CN12? Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Strobo disc Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 04:01:53 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Steve, >>From Manfred's explanation of how the timing signals are used, during >running the sensor/circuit is counting pulses, so as long as there are 54 >light and dark pulses it should function OK, even with a diameter smaller >than 145mm. The signal frequency stays the same no matter what diameter the disc has. I still would not use a diameter lower than 5" because the reflective interrupter works better with larger black/white fields. I lager disc also helps to bring down the relative error caused by imperfect positioning of the disc on the platter. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Strobo disc Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:14:27 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Igor, >Manfred, thanks for the warning. Would perhaps a >matte version of the spray be safer? I don't know. We can only find out by try and error. Today I received a sheet of the white plastic foil that is sticky on one side and can be used with a laser printer. The printing went very well. The current ratio at the output of the sensor measured as 1:8 which is only a bit less than what you get from plain white paper but still good enough. Using this stuff it is a bit easier to build the strobe. The plastic looks a bit better than paper and is less sensible for moisture. (this may be an argument for those of you living in Florida ) This foil is originally intended for making front panels for home made electronic gear. The price is about $2 for one A4 sized sheet. CN12 is : Ahh, I see. Thanks for the info. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Strobo disc Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:17:09 -0700 From: Manfred Huber, Manfred Huber To: teres@aiko.com Igor, >This plastic foil sounds very interesting, for my equipment projects as well. >I wonder where it can be found locally. I'm afraid I will be of no great help with locating a comparable product on the US market. (But I'm sure it exists) There is an other interesting solution to the Strobe problem: DigiKey sells something called toner transfer paper. You can laser print to this stuff and than transfer the toner from the paper to the target surface by use of a hot iron. See: http://www.digikey.com/EC/V3/498.pdf Maybe this stuff can be used to transfer the strobe pattern directly to the damping material. I learned about this material from Jeremy Epstein. Regards Manfred ------------------ Manfred Huber MHuber@t-online.de ------------------ Subject: Re: [teres] Strobo disc Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 09:40:07 -0700 From: Kalman Rubinson, Kalman Rubinson To: teres@aiko.com On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Manfred Huber wrote: > Igor, > > >This plastic foil sounds very interesting, for my equipment projects as well. > >I wonder where it can be found locally. > > I'm afraid I will be of no great help with locating a comparable product on > the US market. (But I'm sure it exists) > > There is an other interesting solution to the Strobe problem: Another solution is the printable foil used to make model airplane coverings. We've printed them in many colors(!) with inkjet. Kal Subject: Re: [teres] Strobo disc Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 18:21:18 -0700 From: Kalman Rubinson, Kalman Rubinson To: teres@aiko.com On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, Igor Kuznetsoff wrote: > Interesting. Where does one buy this? Actually, we bought it from a dealer in England but, it turns out, the adhesive is inadequate. After a few months, it lifts off. Just found out. Kal > --- Kalman Rubinson wrote: > > On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Manfred Huber wrote: > > > > > Igor, > > > > > > >This plastic foil sounds very interesting, for my > > equipment projects as well. > > > >I wonder where it can be found locally. > > > > > > I'm afraid I will be of no great help with > > locating a comparable product on > > > the US market. (But I'm sure it exists) > > > > > > There is an other interesting solution to the > > Strobe problem: > > > > Another solution is the printable foil used to make > > model > > airplane coverings. We've printed them in many > > colors(!) with inkjet. > > > > Kal > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com >