Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:29:33 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'Mackris (h), Thom' -----Original Message----- From: Igor Kuznetsoff [mailto:gorkuz@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 2:30 AM To: Thom G. Mackris Subject: Fwd: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp T- One possible, in fact likely, possibility. Thom, this is a (copy of a)*private* post, for the moment. I Oops, barely did I say that I don't have the time, before my unstoppable idea centers get into gear and... Suppose the clamp was machined out of stainless steel in the cross-sectional shape of a ladle on its side, machining the "cup" section of it empty. Then, with cup opening up & carefully leveled, melted lead were poured into this section. This would give us the basic form made of a strong/non deformable material, it would end up quite heavy in a small size, and the lead would damp the assembly nicely. We could even do the lead filling ourselves, or hook up with a black powder gun hobbyist- they all have their own rigs for melting & casting their own lead balls. I --------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: PeriClamp.doc PeriClamp.doc Type: Winword File (application/msword) Encoding: base64 Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:51:12 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: Mackris, Thom G.; 'Jeremy Epstein' CC: 'Schei, Kenneth'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) on 1/31/00 09:47, Mackris, Thom G. at tgmackris@vicorpinc.com wrote: > Jeremy, > > Feh! I hate when I spill paint !! > > I think we need Steve Z. or George Munger (whom you'll meet at NY Noise on > 3/11, Jeremy) to address this issue for us. I'll try to explain two > different clamping approaches which don't use any form of periphery clamping > (i.e. Merrill's clamp and vacuum clamping). > Thom explains the layout of the Oracle clamp very well. The clamp does work on edge warps to a large, though not complete extent. Several caveats: Heavy vinyl or very thick, hard older pressings are not as effectively "bowed" by the clamping action as thinner or more flexible vinyl (but are perhaps less likely to have warps to begin with). The guy I bought my Oracle from told me he really tightens down hard on the clamp, to the point that he has broken records at the label or spindle hole! I don't do this! Larger, "whoop-de-doo" edge warps are eliminated more readily than the multiple little ripples around the edge. The softer the mat, the less the ripples, of any sort, are straightened. On a bare platter almost all ripples except the tight little multiple ones can be eliminated. I generally only keep an edge-warped record only as long as it takes me to find a replacement, and I will not buy a record, no matter how desireable otherwise that has warps, unless it is given to me gratis. I have only one record out of 1,000+ that has a problematical edge warp, and that is a Klaatu album that I haven't really been looking to replace. So I am likely not the guy to have a lot of experience with warps, or one that feels a need for an edge clamp. Hope this provides some perspective, though. Steve Z Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:51:13 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: Mackris, Thom G.; 'Igor Kuznetsoff'; Schei, Kenneth; 'Jeremy Epstein' CC: Schei, Kenneth; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) on 1/31/00 12:51, Mackris, Thom G. at tgmackris@vicorpinc.com wrote: > Igor, Ken > > Indeed, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there are some good reasons why > people strive to get their 'tables perfectly level. It seems as if this > topic was discussed somewhere in the bearing & platter design ... but maybe > that was a past life, or an offline conversation. > > BTW, the reason I'm a bit slow about getting the final spindle height > dimensions back to Chris, is because I'm toying with the idea of how much > mat thickness to allow for, while still exposing enough thread (in the > threaded spindle version) to allow the clamp to grab the spindle. In my > Merrill clamp, the threads are a bit recessed, and when use the 3/32" cork > mat (I may have erroneously reported 3/16 in a previous post ... damn > English system #%@), the clamp grabs only 2-3 threads (rotations). > > Steve, you are using a sorbo mat over your Oracle, aren't you? I'm guessing > that it's at least 1/8" thick. Your spindle height obviously gives you no > problems? IIRC, your total spindle height is11/16" (1/16" shorter than my > 3/4" Merrill spindle) with the threaded and unthreaded portions being > approximately equal. I looked for your post on this yesterday and couldn't > find it. > > Cheers, > Thom Yep, about a 1/8" sorbothane mat. No problems with engaging the clamp on the threaded portion. Steve Subject: Re: [teres] merril peripheral clamp Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:31:06 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Doug, We machined the platter as close as my crude measurement techniques would allow to the diameter of the Merrill platter. This ended up being 12.280" I haven't spoken with George recently, but I'm under the impression that he still sells parts for both his 'tables and AR upgrades. The URL to his shop "Underground Sound" is a bit cryptic to navigate: http://www.ugsaudio.com/index.html There's a lot of information about AR upgrades here. These tweakings were the genesis of the Merrill turntable. The periphery clamp is an aluminum ring which you place over the LP. It grabs the outer third of the lead-in groove and holds the record down by gravity. The table also has a standard (non-reflex) screw-down center clamp. On the Merrill platter, use of the clamp is optional. There's a rebate on the edge of the platter which allows you to place the clamp underneath the record for storage - No clamping is effected - the clamp is stored there allowing the platter to have the same mass and leaving spring tuning unaffected. On our Teres, the clamp should fit nicely, but in the interest of cosmetics as well as the anticipated limited use of the clamp by the projected number of owners, there is no rebate in the platter to store the clamp when it is not in use. BTW, the edge on Chris' platter is gorgeous compated to the squared off rebate on my Merrill platter. The business end of the clamp is tapered aluminum and some cartridge bodies don't clear the clamp when the stylus is in the lead-in groove. I once had a Linn K-18 cartridge which had clearance problems and I had to file off a bit of the plastic on the bottom right side of the cartridge in order to play the beginning of records. This lip is a bit fragile. I didn't realize it, but I had set up a plastic-dip hook to hang my clamp when I was changing records. I noticed that the weight of the clamp (2 lbs) resulted in some small ripples in the lip. When I tried to straighten them out, the lip separeated from the body of the clamp in several places. When I called George about replacement, he quoted me a price in the neighborhood of $200. After working with Bryce on this project, I can now understand these prices. He also indicated that I needed to send in my platter to ensure a proper fit (diameter). Apparently he's had minor dimension changes over the years. When my bearing & platter arrive, I'll get to check how closely the clamp fits. When dimensioning the platter, I erred on the small side by a few thousandths. I think that we'll probably be able to get a good fit if folks are interested. In terms of sending a platter to George for fitting, Chris will be receiving a one of the reject platters - too botched up for even those on the waiting list, but good for sending to George for matching up a clamp. As this project evolves, we can potentially put together a group purchase from George if he still does this ... then, there's always Bryce and a design of our own. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Kelly To: teres Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 1:08 AM Subject: [teres] merril peripheral clamp I've seen this beast mentioned a couple times on the list, and it sounds like the Teres platters were designed to accept them. any pointers on more information? I've made it as far as the obvious - the're rings that somehow clamp the outer periphery of the record. A web search turned up only one possibly relevent link that seemed to suggest that they were metal and designed as much to damp/screen magnetic fields as to clamp the record. Are they current products, or another sadly departed piece of vinyl history? any help/pointers appreciated. Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:04:07 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com Daus, It sounds as if you're describing a reflex clamp. The VPI and Oracle clamps are reflex clamps. They depend on a small, tapered (Steve?) washer sitting on the platter spindle *under* the record. The clamp then pushes down around the perimeter of the record label. The Oracle clamp is quite pretty, in an Oracle kind of way. Is functionality sacrificed for beauty? It's a pretty polished aluminum - could it be damped better & would this help? Beats me. Although the Sota clamp is called a reflex clamp, I don't understand how (non-vacuum) Sotas can accomplish reflex clamping. I've never seen a washer supplied with any Sotas. I don't know how a clamp could accomplish this clamping without such a washer - unless an area was built up around the spindle. This area of the Sota platters I've seen appears to be perfectly flat, however. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Daus Studenberg To: Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 12:19 AM Subject: [teres] record clamps Hi, Has there been any success using a stock Sota/VPI clamp for the Teres?? I have been shopping around for a clamp and remember some people mention using a VPI or Sota Clamp. Any reccomendations on a good screw down type?? I wish the Mitchell Orbe clamp was available seperately becuase it is the only clamp that I know of the raises the vinyl and then flattens it. I like that concept the best. Daus Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 22:59:31 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com I'm glad to hear we got the Oracle spindle criteria correct. George Munger can confirm VPI compatibility when he gets around to it, but he's been spending all of his free time on the strobe disk (thanks a ton George! We're almost there). He even took a day off to get to the print shop during their hours of operation (phone & e-mail was getting challenging), but then again, George has been working so hard lately that he needed the time off anyway. Regarding wholesale VPI clamps, I'll need to talk with this local individual to see if it's worth his while. He runs a small tube business here in Denver (out of his house). I would guess that if he agreed to do it, he'd want to make a small bit of change (deservedly so) to compensate for his time. Even so, this would beat retail by a bunch. I'm a bit confused about the need for a two piece clamp where the pieces have to be handled separately. My Merrill clamp is two pieces which are held together by a circlip. This allows the knob to rotate independently of the disk. I need to look at mine in order to describe it better. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Zettel To: Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 10:28 PM Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps on 9/5/00 22:24, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella at tmackris@earthlink.net wrote: > I take it then, that we got the overall height of the spindle correct with > respect to the Oracle clamp, Steve? This was the main area I was concerned > with. As was noted (I think), the threaded portion of the clamp begins > somewhere in the "knob" area, or about1/4" above the bottom of the clamp. It works for me! > > I know that with my Merrill center clamp, when I try to simulate a reflex > clamp (building up the bottom of the perimeter of the clamp with a spacer), > I am unable to make contact with the threads on the spindle. Oh no, I am sorry to hear that! > > I believe we passed the spindle height dimensions around, waaaay back in > late January. Seems like ages ago! Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:16:50 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com > Regarding wholesale VPI clamps, I'll need to talk with this local individual > to see if it's worth his while. He runs a small tube business here in > Denver (out of his house). I would guess that if he agreed to do it, he'd > want to make a small bit of change (deservedly so) to compensate for his > time. Even so, this would beat retail by a bunch. Even though I plan to get a clamp made here, I'd be interested if the price is low enough. In the two piece clamp, though. > > I'm a bit confused about the need for a two piece clamp where the pieces > have to be handled separately. My Merrill clamp is two pieces which are > held together by a circlip. This allows the knob to rotate independently > of the disk. I need to look at mine in order to describe it better. The Oracle two-piece clamp also has the knob held captive by a circlip. The whole thing is actually very simple and could probably be turned out by a skilled machinist on a drill press and lathe in the matter of 10 or 15 minutes, including the cool "lightening holes" in the body of the clamp. About the only things I might change about the Oracle clamp is to make the outer diameter of the large part of the clamp just a shade smaller to ensure my "hammerhead" cartridge clears even the Mercury LPs cut almost to the label, and *maybe* have it made of brass. Or polished aluminum (any non-magnetic alloy). Steve Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:21:42 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 9/5/00 23:11, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella at tmackris@earthlink.net wrote: > Peter, > > We didn't consider the washer in the reflex clamp design. > > The area where the bearing is visible is recessed a few hundredths (.05, > IIRC) below the level of the label area, however. We figured why have any > more surface area (of the record) than necessary in contact with the > bearing. The thought was put forward to allow for some sorbothene to fit in > this area, but we couldn't come to any final agreement on the exact depth of > the recess, and in the end, just made it barely below the label support > area. > > Cheers, > Thom > One way of playing with this recess depth, and also effectively "shorten" the spindle if desired, would be to place a washer (resilient, dead, or rigid, your choice) on the shoulder of the bearing where the platter rests. Some have posited doing just that with a thin lead washer to further isolate the platter from the bearing. However, raising the platter in relation to the spindle, while making a deeper recess for a tapered washer, might exacerbate problems with thread-engagement between the clamp and spindle. Collet-type clamps might be completely unusable. . . Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 00:30:07 -0700 From: Daus Studenberg, Daus Studenberg To: teres@aiko.com I take it Steve that you are using the Oracle clamp on your Teres and it fits perfectly?? If so, what type of Oracle clamp is it that you are using? I have a supplier that can get me one. I like the lead washer idea that someone suggested. Thanks for the help, Daus ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Zettel To: Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps > on 9/5/00 22:24, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella at tmackris@earthlink.net > wrote: > > > I take it then, that we got the overall height of the spindle correct with > > respect to the Oracle clamp, Steve? This was the main area I was concerned > > with. As was noted (I think), the threaded portion of the clamp begins > > somewhere in the "knob" area, or about1/4" above the bottom of the clamp. > > It works for me! > > > > I know that with my Merrill center clamp, when I try to simulate a reflex > > clamp (building up the bottom of the perimeter of the clamp with a spacer), > > I am unable to make contact with the threads on the spindle. > > Oh no, I am sorry to hear that! > > > > I believe we passed the spindle height dimensions around, waaaay back in > > late January. > > Seems like ages ago! > > Steve Z > Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 00:57:04 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com > However, raising the platter in relation to > the spindle, while making a deeper recess for a > tapered washer, might exacerbate problems with > thread-engagement between the clamp and spindle. > Collet-type clamps might be completely unusable A thin lead washer between the spindle shoulder & platter would probably not take up enough space by itself to cause a problem. Adding to that a tapered washer might. A washer of sorbothane could accomplish the same function as a tapered washer, while additionally damping the spindle/spindle tip, and the record itself (in that area), with its effectiveness amplified by the compression. Should some combination of these regimens cause the spindle tip to become a bit too short for proper engagement with a clamp, don't sweat it, just don't screw the tip in all the way. The threaded portion of the tip meant to engage the spindle is quite long, and can easily give up an 1/8" or so. To avoid leaving the tip loose, allowing it to unscrew itself (or be less than tight) during use, drop in a small ball bearing, or whatever is the right size (and shape to allow easy removal, should the need arise), and tighten the tip down onto that. Am I missing something? This fix seems too easy & obvious. Somebody should check into this. Igor --- Steve Zettel wrote: > on 9/5/00 23:11, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella at > tmackris@earthlink.net > wrote: > > > Peter, > > > > We didn't consider the washer in the reflex clamp > design. > > > > The area where the bearing is visible is recessed > a few hundredths (.05, > > IIRC) below the level of the label area, however. > We figured why have any > > more surface area (of the record) than necessary > in contact with the > > bearing. The thought was put forward to allow for > some sorbothene to fit in > > this area, but we couldn't come to any final > agreement on the exact depth of > > the recess, and in the end, just made it barely > below the label support > > area. > > > > Cheers, > > Thom > > > One way of playing with this recess depth, and also > effectively "shorten" > the spindle if desired, would be to place a washer > (resilient, dead, or > rigid, your choice) on the shoulder of the bearing > where the platter rests. > Some have posited doing just that with a thin lead > washer to further isolate > the platter from the bearing. However, raising the > platter in relation to > the spindle, while making a deeper recess for a > tapered washer, might > exacerbate problems with thread-engagement between > the clamp and spindle. > Collet-type clamps might be completely unusable. . . > > Steve Z > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:26:31 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Great idea about extending the spindle with a ball bearing spacer if necessary, Igor! Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Igor Kuznetsoff To: Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 12:57 AM Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps [snip] To avoid leaving the tip loose, allowing it to unscrew itself (or be less than tight) during use, drop in a small ball bearing, or whatever is the right size (and shape to allow easy removal, should the need arise), and tighten the tip down onto that. Am I missing something? This fix seems too easy & obvious. Somebody should check into this. Igor Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:56:22 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 9/6/00 03:15, Daus Studenberg at daus@ufl.edu wrote: > I take it Steve that you are using the Oracle clamp on your Teres and it > fits perfectly?? If so, what type of Oracle clamp is it that you are using? > I have a supplier that can get me one. I like the lead washer idea that > someone suggested. > > Thanks for the help, > Daus > > Hi, Daus I only "test fit" the Oracle Delphi II clamp to my static bearing and platter. Wish I had it up and running! With the thick original Oracle "sticky" sorbothane mat, as well as the Audioquest "non-sticky" pebble-finish sorbo mat (still thick) and the tapered Oracle washer the clamp works perfectly. Let me know what the Oracle clamps are going for now, would you? Thanks, Steve Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:58:37 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 9/6/00 00:56, Igor Kuznetsoff at gorkuz@yahoo.com wrote: > > A thin lead washer between the spindle shoulder & > platter would probably not take up enough space by > itself to cause a problem. Adding to that a tapered > washer might. A washer of sorbothane could accomplish > the same function as a tapered washer, while > additionally damping the spindle/spindle tip, and the > record itself (in that area), with its effectiveness > amplified by the compression. Should some combination > of these regimens cause the spindle tip to become a > bit too short for proper engagement with a clamp, > don't sweat it, just don't screw the tip in all the > way. The threaded portion of the tip meant to engage > the spindle is quite long, and can easily give up an > 1/8" or so. To avoid leaving the tip loose, allowing > it to unscrew itself (or be less than tight) during > use, drop in a small ball bearing, or whatever is the > right size (and shape to allow easy removal, should > the need arise), and tighten the tip down onto that. > Am I missing something? This fix seems too easy & > obvious. Somebody should check into this. > > Igor > I tried this as soon as I read it. Works perfectly, Igor! You da man! Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:37:31 -0700 From: Daus Studenberg, Daus Studenberg To: teres@aiko.com Steve, The Oracle clamp that I am considering is the standard aluminum one with the recessed holes around the edge. From what I can gather, you are using the Teres platter with a sorbothane mat and the Oracle clamp? I was wondering if the Oracle fits perfectly (i.e. does not come too short or does not go into the spindle too much as to run out of threading) without the use of a mat. The washer height is of no concern to me because I can easily find a suitable one to fit the Teres platter if I need to. Thanks, Daus ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Zettel To: Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps > on 9/6/00 03:15, Daus Studenberg at daus@ufl.edu wrote: > > > I take it Steve that you are using the Oracle clamp on your Teres and it > > fits perfectly?? If so, what type of Oracle clamp is it that you are using? > > I have a supplier that can get me one. I like the lead washer idea that > > someone suggested. > > > > Thanks for the help, > > Daus > > > > > Hi, Daus > > I only "test fit" the Oracle Delphi II clamp to my static bearing and > platter. Wish I had it up and running! > > With the thick original Oracle "sticky" sorbothane mat, as well as the > Audioquest "non-sticky" pebble-finish sorbo mat (still thick) and the > tapered Oracle washer the clamp works perfectly. > > Let me know what the Oracle clamps are going for now, would you? > > Thanks, > > Steve > Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:43:13 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Thanks, Steve, instant feedback appreciated. It just seemed too simple. I had the nervous feeling that I would end up looking foolish. Igor --- Steve Zettel wrote: > on 9/6/00 00:56, Igor Kuznetsoff at gorkuz@yahoo.com > wrote: > > > > > A thin lead washer between the spindle shoulder & > > platter would probably not take up enough space by > > itself to cause a problem. Adding to that a > tapered > > washer might. A washer of sorbothane could > accomplish > > the same function as a tapered washer, while > > additionally damping the spindle/spindle tip, and > the > > record itself (in that area), with its > effectiveness > > amplified by the compression. Should some > combination > > of these regimens cause the spindle tip to become > a > > bit too short for proper engagement with a clamp, > > don't sweat it, just don't screw the tip in all > the > > way. The threaded portion of the tip meant to > engage > > the spindle is quite long, and can easily give up > an > > 1/8" or so. To avoid leaving the tip loose, > allowing > > it to unscrew itself (or be less than tight) > during > > use, drop in a small ball bearing, or whatever is > the > > right size (and shape to allow easy removal, > should > > the need arise), and tighten the tip down onto > that. > > Am I missing something? This fix seems too easy & > > obvious. Somebody should check into this. > > > > Igor > > > I tried this as soon as I read it. Works perfectly, > Igor! You da man! > > Steve Z > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:06:07 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Thanks, it has one of my favorite elements of "machinistic perfection" ....It's *cheap*. Igor --- Thom Mackris wrote: > Great idea about extending the spindle with a ball > bearing spacer if > necessary, Igor! > > Thom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Igor Kuznetsoff > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 12:57 AM > Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps > > > > > [snip] > > To avoid leaving the tip loose, allowing > it to unscrew itself (or be less than tight) during > use, drop in a small ball bearing, or whatever is > the > right size (and shape to allow easy removal, should > the need arise), and tighten the tip down onto that. > Am I missing something? This fix seems too easy & > obvious. Somebody should check into this. > > Igor > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 00:19:37 -0700 From: Daus Studenberg, Daus Studenberg To: teres@aiko.com In regards to this post: > Regarding wholesale VPI clamps, I'll need to talk with this local individual > to see if it's worth his while. He runs a small tube business here in > Denver (out of his house). I would guess that if he agreed to do it, he'd > want to make a small bit of change (deservedly so) to compensate for his > time. Even so, this would beat retail by a bunch. I checked a retailer (Lyle Cartridges) and they had the Deluxe VPI clamp at $80. That's steep for a chunk of Delrin, but I like the design the best (one piece). I believe it uses a different thread, but getting a new spindle for the Teres machined would cost VERY little. I think this is the best clamp for the price (assuming we get that really nice wholesale deal :) ). I checked for the priced of the Oracle clamp and its around $195 for a chromed version and $295 for the gold version at Audiomax-Ltd!!! Daus Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 01:48:44 -0700 From: Edgar Dapiton, Edgar Dapiton To: teres@aiko.com Hello guys! I own a Michell Clamp BUT I don't use it often probably because of ignorance and (in)convinience. I had to turn-off my unit, screw on the clamp, turn it on again. Is this how you do it? I tried putting on the clamp while the record turns and it just doesn't tighten because the direction of the screw is also clockwise. . . and removing it is also the same. This thing doesn't come with a "user's guide" - thus I only use my record stabilizer. . . TNX All Edgar Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 07:51:39 -0700 From: Peter Marvit, Peter Marvit To: teres@aiko.com > I'm a bit confused about the need for a two piece clamp where the pieces > have to be handled separately. My Merrill clamp is two pieces which are > held together by a circlip. This allows the knob to rotate independently > of the disk. I need to look at mine in order to describe it better. The VPI deluxe sounds similar to the Mereill. Strictly, the VPI deluxe is also "two-parts", but the stainless tightening knob with the threads for the spindle is permanently attached to the delrin bottom part but spins independently (so the part touching the label does not move when the top is turned). The BDR carbon fiber and standard VPI acrylic are, on the other hand, true two-parters. I assume the two-parters are simply easier to manufacture. -Peter "F=ma" Marvit : Peter Marvit, PhD : : Northeastern University, Dept. of Speech-Language Pathology and Audiology : : 133 Forsyth Building, Boston, MA 02115-5000 : : phone: 617/373-5198 fax: 617/373-5199 : Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:08:02 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com It sounds as if Lyle is clearing them out (at $80) - assuming a retail price of $150. Perhaps this is the way to go. I can't envision it using a diffrent thread, because then it would be incompatible with VPI turntables! Something to check, however (1/4" x 20 threads per inch is what we, Oracle, and VPI folks are after). Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Daus Studenberg To: Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 3:23 AM Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps In regards to this post: > Regarding wholesale VPI clamps, I'll need to talk with this local individual > to see if it's worth his while. He runs a small tube business here in > Denver (out of his house). I would guess that if he agreed to do it, he'd > want to make a small bit of change (deservedly so) to compensate for his > time. Even so, this would beat retail by a bunch. I checked a retailer (Lyle Cartridges) and they had the Deluxe VPI clamp at $80. That's steep for a chunk of Delrin, but I like the design the best (one piece). I believe it uses a different thread, but getting a new spindle for the Teres machined would cost VERY little. I think this is the best clamp for the price (assuming we get that really nice wholesale deal :) ). I checked for the priced of the Oracle clamp and its around $195 for a chromed version and $295 for the gold version at Audiomax-Ltd!!! Daus Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:12:02 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Yes, you need to be either real quick or stop your platter before clamping/unclamping ... it's not just a good idea, it's the law. Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Edgar Dapiton To: Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 1:46 AM Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Hello guys! I own a Michell Clamp BUT I don't use it often probably because of ignorance and (in)convinience. I had to turn-off my unit, screw on the clamp, turn it on again. Is this how you do it? I tried putting on the clamp while the record turns and it just doesn't tighten because the direction of the screw is also clockwise. . . and removing it is also the same. This thing doesn't come with a "user's guide" - thus I only use my record stabilizer. . . TNX All Edgar Subject: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:54:43 -0700 From: David Suess, David Suess To: teres@aiko.com I would think that it would be pretty simple to come up with a DIY screw down clamp. At my local hardware store they have a large collection of knobs with different screw threadings. I'm sure I could find one that would fit the Teres screw spindle. Then all you would need would be a round piece of rigid material the size of a record label of the appripriate thickness. Presto!! Your own 2-piece screw down clamp. I am using a one of these knobs for the arm board tightener on my Teres. Now I just gotta finish soldering on my motor controller PCB. Soldering those SMD caps sure was some fiddly work for fat fingers and tired eyes. I second whoever it was that mentioned having a magnifying glass handy when working on this PCB. - david Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 11:38:22 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Good points, David. There would be one extra step for a reflex clamp. You'd need to machine/route the bottom of the clamp so that only a small ring at its perimeter touches the record label - say the outer 1/8" of an inch or so. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: David Suess Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 10:54 AM Subject: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea I would think that it would be pretty simple to come up with a DIY screw down clamp. [snip] - david Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:05:22 -0700 From: ron welborne, ron welborne To: teres@aiko.com So how do we find out if any of these clamps fit the Teres spindle? Or do we already know? Ron Welborne Labs wlabs@ix.netcom.com ph: 303.470.6585 fax: 303.791.5783 website --------------- www.welbornelabs.com ----------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Daus Studenberg To: Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps > Here you go: > > http://www.lylecartridges.com/partsandupgrades/#vpi > > Daus > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Peter Marvit > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:39 AM > Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps > > > > Daus wrote: > > > I checked a retailer (Lyle Cartridges) and they had the Deluxe VPI clamp > at > > > $80. That's steep for a chunk of Delrin, but I like the design the best > > > (one piece). > > > > Could you send the URL you used. The only one I could find at Lyle's > > (http://www.lylecartridges.com/turntables/vpiturntables.htm) showed only > > the new VPI deluxe/stainless at $150. > > > > Stewart: > > > > Is your offer of $50 VPI clamps for the older all-delrin or the newer > > stainless top/delrin bottom? If the former, I probably wouldn't bother > > except for convenience. If the latter, you offer a superb deal. > > > > -Peter "hmmm, obsessing?" Marvit > > > > > > : Peter Marvit, PhD > : > > : Northeastern University, Dept. of Speech-Language Pathology and > Audiology : > > : 133 Forsyth Building, Boston, MA 02115-5000 > : > > : phone: 617/373-5198 fax: 617/373-5199 > : > > > Subject: RE: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:20:09 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com Hi David, I see I couldn't fool you when I mispelled magnifying. It's irritating that I catch most my mistakes after I send an email. I agree that it doesn't seem necessary to spend a lot of money on a record clamp. Somewhere I heard a hockey puck suggested. I figured I could drill a well centered hole for the spindle and a knob would be optional. Hmm, one piece clamp or two??? What are the advantages of spending mucho dinero on a VPI clamp? I ask this question seriously, would the expensive clamp do a better job than a hockey puck or two. Maybe, two hockey pucks sandwiching one of our motor controller brass plates. Or a lead disk - to prevent ringing, of course. Hmm, lot's of fun here, I think. Comments anyone? Cheers, Paul PS - Wow, wanna talk custom? We could paint little paisleys on these suckers! > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > David Suess > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 12:54 PM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea > > > > I would think that it would be pretty simple to come up with a DIY screw > down clamp. At my local hardware store they have a large collection of > knobs with different screw threadings. I'm sure I could find one > that would > fit the Teres screw spindle. Then all you would need would be a round > piece of rigid material the size of a record label of the appripriate > thickness. Presto!! Your own 2-piece screw down clamp. > > I am using a one of these knobs for the arm board tightener on my Teres. > > Now I just gotta finish soldering on my motor controller PCB. Soldering > those SMD caps sure was some fiddly work for fat fingers and tired eyes. > I second whoever it was that mentioned having a magnifying glass handy > when working on this PCB. > > - david > Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:56:33 -0700 From: Stewart Ono, Stewart Ono To: teres@aiko.com Clamps do make a difference. I've owned an Oracle, VPI, and SOTA or the years with their respective clamps. I've had a Linn modified by welding an extension and threading it to accept an Oracle style clamp. Several observations over the years: Material construction will impart their own particular sound i.e.aluminum sounds brighter than Delrin. The taper on the clamping edge is significant. The more finely feathered the edge, the better the sound (more openness and extension in the highs). As far as energy transfer is concerned, old bicyclists will understand this when thinking in terms of a lugged frame. On the modified Linn, while the clamp was a copy of the Oracle, the machinist left a fairly thick edge that deadened the sound (1/8 " landing versus the 1/32" on the oracle). Tension makes a difference. Use the minimum necessary to hold the record down. The washer under the LP also makes a difference. I prefer not to use the washer if the records are flat enough. While I have the washers by the various manufacturers, I make my own by slicing up small diameter soft rubber grommets. It puts minimum stress on the warped lps and I can juggle sizes to get just enough height to flatten LP's. Once the Teres TT is up I can experiment with a Kenwood clamping arrangement which was probably the inspiration for the Merrill edge clamp. I got that one for free from a friend who dropped it on his LP! Stu Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 14:06:16 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com Good questions Paul. I have played with one of those exotic hockey puck clamps (Avalanche). I drilled the hole so that it was a snug friction fit on to the spindle so it really is a clamp, not just a weight. On my Thorens 165 it helped a lot along with a cork mat that Thom gave me. On the Teres I preferred no mat and no clamp. However, without a mat on the Teres the puck may have been raising the edge of the record rather than clamping it as a good reflex clamp would do. Maybe I can borrow a reflex clamp from a local and give it a try. I have a long list experiments, mats, clamps, belts, isolation, etc. that I want to do with the Teres. But it sounds so darned good that I just end up listening. Chris > What are the advantages of spending mucho dinero on a VPI clamp? I ask this > question seriously, would the expensive clamp do a better job than a hockey > puck or two. Maybe, two hockey pucks sandwiching one of our motor controller > brass plates. Or a lead disk - to prevent ringing, of course. Hmm, lot's of > fun here, I think. Comments anyone? > Cheers, > Paul > > PS - Wow, wanna talk custom? We could paint little paisleys on these > suckers! > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > > David Suess > > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 12:54 PM > > To: teres@aiko.com > > Subject: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea > > > > > > > > I would think that it would be pretty simple to come up with a DIY screw > > down clamp. At my local hardware store they have a large collection of > > knobs with different screw threadings. I'm sure I could find one > > that would > > fit the Teres screw spindle. Then all you would need would be a round > > piece of rigid material the size of a record label of the appripriate > > thickness. Presto!! Your own 2-piece screw down clamp. > > > > I am using a one of these knobs for the arm board tightener on my Teres. > > > > Now I just gotta finish soldering on my motor controller PCB. Soldering > > those SMD caps sure was some fiddly work for fat fingers and tired eyes. > > I second whoever it was that mentioned having a magnifying glass handy > > when working on this PCB. > > > > - david > > Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 14:09:54 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com I think that the answer is that we "sorta know" they'll work. A while back, George Munger had confirmed that his VPI HW-19 Mk III had a 1/4" by 20 tpi spindle thread. While this is good (and consistent with Merrills and Oracles) this still does not tell us that the spindle height is correct. The proof will be if we get hold of a VPI clamp (say, from Grant G.) and try it on the Teres spindle. I intend to contact Grant this evening - hopefully to learn the answer in the next couple of days. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: ron welborne To: Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps So how do we find out if any of these clamps fit the Teres spindle? Or do we already know? Ron Welborne Labs wlabs@ix.netcom.com ph: 303.470.6585 fax: 303.791.5783 website --------------- www.welbornelabs.com ----------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Daus Studenberg To: Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps > Here you go: > > http://www.lylecartridges.com/partsandupgrades/#vpi > > Daus > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Peter Marvit > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:39 AM > Subject: Re: [teres] record clamps > > > > Daus wrote: > > > I checked a retailer (Lyle Cartridges) and they had the Deluxe VPI clamp > at > > > $80. That's steep for a chunk of Delrin, but I like the design the best > > > (one piece). > > > > Could you send the URL you used. The only one I could find at Lyle's > > (http://www.lylecartridges.com/turntables/vpiturntables.htm) showed only > > the new VPI deluxe/stainless at $150. > > > > Stewart: > > > > Is your offer of $50 VPI clamps for the older all-delrin or the newer > > stainless top/delrin bottom? If the former, I probably wouldn't bother > > except for convenience. If the latter, you offer a superb deal. > > > > -Peter "hmmm, obsessing?" Marvit > > > > > > : Peter Marvit, PhD > : > > : Northeastern University, Dept. of Speech-Language Pathology and > Audiology : > > : 133 Forsyth Building, Boston, MA 02115-5000 > : > > : phone: 617/373-5198 fax: 617/373-5199 > : > > > Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 14:18:13 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Ken started the hockey puck craze. Chris followed shortly thereafter. While this much improved Chris' Thorens TD165 as well as Ken's Thorens, the results were not that good on the early Teres. My Merrill clamp did not help the sound either. It would appear that the Teres requires either reflex clamping, a Merrill-like system (center clamp plus periphery clamp), or no clamping at all. IOW, conventional clamping which tends to lift the edge of the LP off the platter hurts the sound. So ... if you adapt a hockey puck, the early results would point toward your having to machine a lip on the periphery and to use a washer under the LP. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Croft To: Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 1:17 PM Subject: RE: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Hi David, I see I couldn't fool you when I mispelled magnifying. It's irritating that I catch most my mistakes after I send an email. I agree that it doesn't seem necessary to spend a lot of money on a record clamp. Somewhere I heard a hockey puck suggested. I figured I could drill a well centered hole for the spindle and a knob would be optional. Hmm, one piece clamp or two??? What are the advantages of spending mucho dinero on a VPI clamp? I ask this question seriously, would the expensive clamp do a better job than a hockey puck or two. Maybe, two hockey pucks sandwiching one of our motor controller brass plates. Or a lead disk - to prevent ringing, of course. Hmm, lot's of fun here, I think. Comments anyone? Cheers, Paul PS - Wow, wanna talk custom? We could paint little paisleys on these suckers! > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > David Suess > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 12:54 PM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea > > > > I would think that it would be pretty simple to come up with a DIY screw > down clamp. At my local hardware store they have a large collection of > knobs with different screw threadings. I'm sure I could find one > that would > fit the Teres screw spindle. Then all you would need would be a round > piece of rigid material the size of a record label of the appripriate > thickness. Presto!! Your own 2-piece screw down clamp. > > I am using a one of these knobs for the arm board tightener on my Teres. > > Now I just gotta finish soldering on my motor controller PCB. Soldering > those SMD caps sure was some fiddly work for fat fingers and tired eyes. > I second whoever it was that mentioned having a magnifying glass handy > when working on this PCB. > > - david > Subject: Re: [teres] VPI Clamp Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:05:02 -0700 From: Stewart Ono, Stewart Ono To: teres@aiko.com I've test my Deluxe clamp on the Teres bearing: It works fine. Stu Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:10:22 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Right on, Thom, You got on top of suggesting machining a lip into a hockey puck before I even got a chance to open my mail today. Guess we've been trading audio thoughts a long time now, indeed. I can add some suggestions, though. By drilling an appropriate size hole from the top, in addition to an appropriately sized one for the spindle from below, a threaded insert can be added from above in order to make the clamp a true screw-down, customized for the Teres (or any other TT). This should be done with a drill press after *very* careful centering. The puck has more than enough mass to need careful centering. If you do not glue the insert in, keeping in mind that the top hole will obviously be larger than the spindle hole, it can act as a two-piece clamp. This will not mar the label area of a record, by allowing the puck to act as a washer, in that sense. Next, you can experiment with improving the damping performance of the puck further by installing a layer of sorbothane in that bottom recess. When installed on the record, the sorbo will compress, allowing the washer underneath to work normally in conjunction with the puck's lip, while adding a good deal of damping. The washer itself can also be replaced with one made of sorbo. In this case, it would probably be wise to make it the same size as a hard washer would be, while the insert in the bottom of the puck should probably be a ring, with the inner diameter starting around where the outer diameter of the washer leaves off, so the record will still dish appropriately despite the softness of the sorbo parts. An additional advantage of this combo could well turn out to be, once the sizing is tuned in, that this system will be much better proofed against overtightening, the sorbo limiting deformation. Igor --- Thom Mackris wrote: > Ken started the hockey puck craze. Chris followed > shortly thereafter. > While this much improved Chris' Thorens TD165 as > well as Ken's Thorens, the > results were not that good on the early Teres. My > Merrill clamp did not > help the sound either. It would appear that the > Teres requires either > reflex clamping, a Merrill-like system (center clamp > plus periphery clamp), > or no clamping at all. > > IOW, conventional clamping which tends to lift the > edge of the LP off the > platter hurts the sound. So ... if you adapt a > hockey puck, the early > results would point toward your having to machine a > lip on the periphery and > to use a washer under the LP. > > Cheers, > Thom > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul Croft > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 1:17 PM > Subject: RE: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea > > > Hi David, > I see I couldn't fool you when I mispelled > magnifying. It's irritating that > I catch most my mistakes after I send an email. > > I agree that it doesn't seem necessary to spend a > lot of money on a record > clamp. Somewhere I heard a hockey puck suggested. I > figured I could drill a > well centered hole for the spindle and a knob would > be optional. Hmm, one > piece clamp or two??? > > What are the advantages of spending mucho dinero on > a VPI clamp? I ask this > question seriously, would the expensive clamp do a > better job than a hockey > puck or two. Maybe, two hockey pucks sandwiching one > of our motor controller > brass plates. Or a lead disk - to prevent ringing, > of course. Hmm, lot's of > fun here, I think. Comments anyone? > Cheers, > Paul > > PS - Wow, wanna talk custom? We could paint little > paisleys on these > suckers! > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-teres@aiko.com > [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > > David Suess > > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 12:54 PM > > To: teres@aiko.com > > Subject: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea > > > > > > > > I would think that it would be pretty simple to > come up with a DIY screw > > down clamp. At my local hardware store they have a > large collection of > > knobs with different screw threadings. I'm sure I > could find one > > that would > > fit the Teres screw spindle. Then all you would > need would be a round > > piece of rigid material the size of a record label > of the appripriate > > thickness. Presto!! Your own 2-piece screw down > clamp. > > > > I am using a one of these knobs for the arm board > tightener on my Teres. > > > > Now I just gotta finish soldering on my motor > controller PCB. Soldering > > those SMD caps sure was some fiddly work for fat > fingers and tired eyes. > > I second whoever it was that mentioned having a > magnifying glass handy > > when working on this PCB. > > > > - david > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Subject: RE: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:14:03 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com Hi Chris, Thanks for the good info. Your right, this darned thing does sound awfully good just as it is. I have talked myself into not playing any more records until I get a tracking force gauge, but that could change at any moment. Hopefully, a new Shure gauge will arrive in tomorrow's mail. Cheers, Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Chris Brady > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 4:04 PM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea >snip... > > I have a long list experiments, mats, clamps, belts, isolation, etc. that > I want to do with the Teres. But it sounds so darned good that I just > end up listening. > > Chris snip... Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:59:28 -0700 From: Daus Studenberg, Daus Studenberg To: teres@aiko.com Believe me, I see no difference, sonically, between a cheap hockey puck and a VPI. This is taking into account that the hockey puck has some type of rim and a decent thread to allow for a reflex design. The Teres is a one of a kind turntable with great potential to look VERY good. I like the look of the VPI clamp..that's all. As far as nit-picking the resonance topic, I think the VPI (all delrin) and hockey puck would be the best. The metal clamps all have a high and undamped resonance frequency. Just tap your Teres motor mounting plate to get an idea. Of course the Teres mounting plate won't have this problem because of the number of bolts clamping it down. Daus ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Croft To: Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 12:17 PM Subject: RE: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea > Hi David, > I see I couldn't fool you when I mispelled magnifying. It's irritating that > I catch most my mistakes after I send an email. > > I agree that it doesn't seem necessary to spend a lot of money on a record > clamp. Somewhere I heard a hockey puck suggested. I figured I could drill a > well centered hole for the spindle and a knob would be optional. Hmm, one > piece clamp or two??? > > What are the advantages of spending mucho dinero on a VPI clamp? I ask this > question seriously, would the expensive clamp do a better job than a hockey > puck or two. Maybe, two hockey pucks sandwiching one of our motor controller > brass plates. Or a lead disk - to prevent ringing, of course. Hmm, lot's of > fun here, I think. Comments anyone? > Cheers, > Paul > > PS - Wow, wanna talk custom? We could paint little paisleys on these > suckers! > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > > David Suess > > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 12:54 PM > > To: teres@aiko.com > > Subject: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea > > > > > > > > I would think that it would be pretty simple to come up with a DIY screw > > down clamp. At my local hardware store they have a large collection of > > knobs with different screw threadings. I'm sure I could find one > > that would > > fit the Teres screw spindle. Then all you would need would be a round > > piece of rigid material the size of a record label of the appripriate > > thickness. Presto!! Your own 2-piece screw down clamp. > > > > I am using a one of these knobs for the arm board tightener on my Teres. > > > > Now I just gotta finish soldering on my motor controller PCB. Soldering > > those SMD caps sure was some fiddly work for fat fingers and tired eyes. > > I second whoever it was that mentioned having a magnifying glass handy > > when working on this PCB. > > > > - david > > > Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 00:07:56 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com One thing to consider if you're taking the hockey puck (or other alternative) route to making a reflex clamp is that the clamp should be as close to label diameter as possible. This of course raises the construction "bar" a bit as you'll need to taper the clamp, much the way the VPI and Oracle clamps are tapered. The reason for this is to ensure that the headshell and/or cartridge don't bump into it when you're in the runout groove. More power to you if you come up with a router jig to accomplish this The reason you need as large a diameter as possible is for the required leverage to push down the record. Realize that the way a reflex clamp works is that it's bending the record slightly, using the washer which is under the record as the fulcrum point. I tried to simulate a reflex clamp with my Merrill, screw-down acrylic, two piece clamp and was not successful. I made a ring out of cork to match the outer diameter of the clamp in order to get the clamp to only contact the record label at its (the clamp's) perimeter. Playing around with various thicknesses and materials of washers, I was hardly able to acomplish any "reflexing". The Merrill clamp is (going from memory - the 'table is boxed up for the move) perhaps 3/8" in *radius*, smaller than the record label. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Daus Studenberg To: Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Believe me, I see no difference, sonically, between a cheap hockey puck and a VPI. This is taking into account that the hockey puck has some type of rim and a decent thread to allow for a reflex design. The Teres is a one of a kind turntable with great potential to look VERY good. I like the look of the VPI clamp..that's all. As far as nit-picking the resonance topic, I think the VPI (all delrin) and hockey puck would be the best. The metal clamps all have a high and undamped resonance frequency. Just tap your Teres motor mounting plate to get an idea. Of course the Teres mounting plate won't have this problem because of the number of bolts clamping it down. Daus Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 05:23:44 -0700 From: Stephen Tag, Stephen Tag To: teres@aiko.com My Merrill clamp is 3.336" in diameter, and the couple of record labels I just measured are around 4" diameter. I guess the difference is to allow for clearance while in the runout groove (hopefully for only a couple of seconds!). I remember waking up once after about two or three hours of my new cartridge riding around in the runout groove. It seemed to be fine, but I wonder what kind of stress that puts on a cartridge. Maybe it just helped break it in quicker. Steve Tag -----Original Message----- From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com Date: Friday, September 08, 2000 1:54 AM Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea >One thing to consider if you're taking the hockey puck (or other >alternative) route to making a reflex clamp is that the clamp should be as >close to label diameter as possible. This of course raises the construction >"bar" a bit as you'll need to taper the clamp, much the way the VPI and >Oracle clamps are tapered. The reason for this is to ensure that the >headshell and/or cartridge don't bump into it when you're in the runout >groove. More power to you if you come up with a router jig to accomplish >this > >The reason you need as large a diameter as possible is for the required >leverage to push down the record. Realize that the way a reflex clamp works >is that it's bending the record slightly, using the washer which is under >the record as the fulcrum point. > >I tried to simulate a reflex clamp with my Merrill, screw-down acrylic, two >piece clamp and was not successful. I made a ring out of cork to match the >outer diameter of the clamp in order to get the clamp to only contact the >record label at its (the clamp's) perimeter. Playing around with various >thicknesses and materials of washers, I was hardly able to acomplish any >"reflexing". The Merrill clamp is (going from memory - the 'table is boxed >up for the move) perhaps 3/8" in *radius*, smaller than the record label. > >Cheers, >Thom > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Daus Studenberg >To: >Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:53 PM >Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea > > >Believe me, I see no difference, sonically, between a cheap hockey puck and >a VPI. This is taking into account that the hockey puck has some type of >rim and a decent thread to allow for a reflex design. The Teres is a one of >a kind turntable with great potential to look VERY good. I like the look of >the VPI clamp..that's all. As far as nit-picking the resonance topic, I >think the VPI (all delrin) and hockey puck would be the best. The metal >clamps all have a high and undamped resonance frequency. Just tap your >Teres motor mounting plate to get an idea. Of course the Teres mounting >plate won't have this problem because of the number of bolts clamping it >down. > >Daus > > Subject: RE: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 07:00:24 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com Thanks for the cogent reply, Thom. I see there is more to this subject than I thought. I started out thinking that we just wanted to add some mass to the record and press it down to the platter. Does this help at all? Is the reflex action a better way of doing it or is it absolutely necessary? Thanks, Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 2:12 AM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea > > > One thing to consider if you're taking the hockey puck (or other > alternative) route to making a reflex clamp is that the clamp should be as > close to label diameter as possible. This of course raises the > construction > "bar" a bit as you'll need to taper the clamp, much the way the VPI and > Oracle clamps are tapered. The reason for this is to ensure that the > headshell and/or cartridge don't bump into it when you're in the runout > groove. More power to you if you come up with a router jig to accomplish > this > > The reason you need as large a diameter as possible is for the required > leverage to push down the record. Realize that the way a reflex > clamp works > is that it's bending the record slightly, using the washer which is under > the record as the fulcrum point. > > I tried to simulate a reflex clamp with my Merrill, screw-down > acrylic, two > piece clamp and was not successful. I made a ring out of cork to > match the > outer diameter of the clamp in order to get the clamp to only contact the > record label at its (the clamp's) perimeter. Playing around with various > thicknesses and materials of washers, I was hardly able to acomplish any > "reflexing". The Merrill clamp is (going from memory - the > 'table is boxed > up for the move) perhaps 3/8" in *radius*, smaller than the record label. > > Cheers, > Thom > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Daus Studenberg > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:53 PM > Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea > > > Believe me, I see no difference, sonically, between a cheap > hockey puck and > a VPI. This is taking into account that the hockey puck has some type of > rim and a decent thread to allow for a reflex design. The Teres > is a one of > a kind turntable with great potential to look VERY good. I like > the look of > the VPI clamp..that's all. As far as nit-picking the resonance topic, I > think the VPI (all delrin) and hockey puck would be the best. The metal > clamps all have a high and undamped resonance frequency. Just tap your > Teres motor mounting plate to get an idea. Of course the Teres mounting > plate won't have this problem because of the number of bolts clamping it > down. > > Daus > > Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 13:24:30 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Clamps try to do 2 things (that I'm aware of ): (1) Couple the record to the platter in order to sink spurious vibrations generated by the stylus tracking the groove (2) Flatten warps A non-reflex clamp, without further design considerations (e.g. a Merrill style periphery clamp, a vacuum hold-down system, or a concave platter like the Well-Tempered) will tend to raise the lip of the LP off the platter as you clamp down on it. I would guess that a massive clamp would help as long as it didn't raise the edge off the record, but I would guess that an lower mass reflex clamp would work even better. Reference my and Chris' comments about the Merrill clamp and the hockey puck clamp on the early Teres implementation. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Croft To: Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 6:58 AM Subject: RE: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Thanks for the cogent reply, Thom. I see there is more to this subject than I thought. I started out thinking that we just wanted to add some mass to the record and press it down to the platter. Does this help at all? Is the reflex action a better way of doing it or is it absolutely necessary? Thanks, Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 2:12 AM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea > > > One thing to consider if you're taking the hockey puck (or other > alternative) route to making a reflex clamp is that the clamp should be as > close to label diameter as possible. This of course raises the > construction > "bar" a bit as you'll need to taper the clamp, much the way the VPI and > Oracle clamps are tapered. The reason for this is to ensure that the > headshell and/or cartridge don't bump into it when you're in the runout > groove. More power to you if you come up with a router jig to accomplish > this > > The reason you need as large a diameter as possible is for the required > leverage to push down the record. Realize that the way a reflex > clamp works > is that it's bending the record slightly, using the washer which is under > the record as the fulcrum point. > > I tried to simulate a reflex clamp with my Merrill, screw-down > acrylic, two > piece clamp and was not successful. I made a ring out of cork to > match the > outer diameter of the clamp in order to get the clamp to only contact the > record label at its (the clamp's) perimeter. Playing around with various > thicknesses and materials of washers, I was hardly able to acomplish any > "reflexing". The Merrill clamp is (going from memory - the > 'table is boxed > up for the move) perhaps 3/8" in *radius*, smaller than the record label. > > Cheers, > Thom > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Daus Studenberg > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:53 PM > Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea > > > Believe me, I see no difference, sonically, between a cheap > hockey puck and > a VPI. This is taking into account that the hockey puck has some type of > rim and a decent thread to allow for a reflex design. The Teres > is a one of > a kind turntable with great potential to look VERY good. I like > the look of > the VPI clamp..that's all. As far as nit-picking the resonance topic, I > think the VPI (all delrin) and hockey puck would be the best. The metal > clamps all have a high and undamped resonance frequency. Just tap your > Teres motor mounting plate to get an idea. Of course the Teres mounting > plate won't have this problem because of the number of bolts clamping it > down. > > Daus > > ----- Original Message ----- From: Thom Mackris To: Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 12:47 PM Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Clamps try to do 2 things (that I'm aware of ): (1) Couple the record to the platter in order to sink spurious vibrations generated by the stylus tracking the groove (2) Flatten warps A non-reflex clamp, without further design considerations (e.g. a Merrill style periphery clamp, a vacuum hold-down system, or a concave platter like the Well-Tempered) will tend to raise the lip of the LP off the platter as you clamp down on it. I would guess that a massive clamp would help as long as it didn't raise the edge off the record, but I would guess that an lower mass reflex clamp would work even better. Reference my and Chris' comments about the Merrill clamp and the hockey puck clamp on the early Teres implementation. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Croft To: Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 6:58 AM Subject: RE: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Thanks for the cogent reply, Thom. I see there is more to this subject than I thought. I started out thinking that we just wanted to add some mass to the record and press it down to the platter. Does this help at all? Is the reflex action a better way of doing it or is it absolutely necessary? Thanks, Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 2:12 AM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea > > > One thing to consider if you're taking the hockey puck (or other > alternative) route to making a reflex clamp is that the clamp should be as > close to label diameter as possible. This of course raises the > construction > "bar" a bit as you'll need to taper the clamp, much the way the VPI and > Oracle clamps are tapered. The reason for this is to ensure that the > headshell and/or cartridge don't bump into it when you're in the runout > groove. More power to you if you come up with a router jig to accomplish > this > > The reason you need as large a diameter as possible is for the required > leverage to push down the record. Realize that the way a reflex > clamp works > is that it's bending the record slightly, using the washer which is under > the record as the fulcrum point. > > I tried to simulate a reflex clamp with my Merrill, screw-down > acrylic, two > piece clamp and was not successful. I made a ring out of cork to > match the > outer diameter of the clamp in order to get the clamp to only contact the > record label at its (the clamp's) perimeter. Playing around with various > thicknesses and materials of washers, I was hardly able to acomplish any > "reflexing". The Merrill clamp is (going from memory - the > 'table is boxed > up for the move) perhaps 3/8" in *radius*, smaller than the record label. > > Cheers, > Thom > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Daus Studenberg > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:53 PM > Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea > > > Believe me, I see no difference, sonically, between a cheap > hockey puck and > a VPI. This is taking into account that the hockey puck has some type of > rim and a decent thread to allow for a reflex design. The Teres > is a one of > a kind turntable with great potential to look VERY good. I like > the look of > the VPI clamp..that's all. As far as nit-picking the resonance topic, I > think the VPI (all delrin) and hockey puck would be the best. The metal > clamps all have a high and undamped resonance frequency. Just tap your > Teres motor mounting plate to get an idea. Of course the Teres mounting > plate won't have this problem because of the number of bolts clamping it > down. > > Daus > > Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 16:02:21 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Clarification: When I said: "but I would guess that a lower mass reflex clamp would work even better." I didn't mean to imply that a high mass reflex clamp wouldn't be even better than a low mass reflex clamp. I was trying to say that a reflex clamp with the *disadvantage* of being low mass would still beat out a damped, massive non-reflex clamp that doesn't couple the record to the platter or mat as well. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [teres] DIY screw-down clamp idea Another "odd" event occured today. I was talking with fellow Terrerist, Blair Hansen. He's not subscribed to the list due to heavy travel schedule and e-mail overload. He's also a whole lot smarter than the rest of us, letting us do the heavy lifting while he kicks back and waits for his 'table to materialize :-) Seriously, I was describing the concept of a reflex clamp to him earlier this week, and my puzzlement over the missing washer in his Sota, non-vacuum table. Today, he was rummaging through his audio junk in search of something else, and low and behold, he stumbled on a rubber washer supplied by Sota! It's a bit denser than neoprene in consistency. We need to get him over to Chris' with said pieces to have a first test of reflex clamping. So, it would appear that the Sota folks do intend their clamps to be used in the manner of VPI and Oracle clamps in non-vacuum applications. Way back when I had a Star Saphire, I never knew what reflex clamp meant. I assumed that it had to do with the lever action manner in which the Sota clamp gripps the spindle. Live 'n learn. Welcome back, Jon. Thom