Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:38:21 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Igor Kuznetsoff; Jeremy Epstein (w); Ken Schei (h); Ken Schei (w); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thom Mackris (w); Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) An intriguing concept. An aluminum lip would probably be a very bad idea, for the reasons already cited. Being soft, it is sure to deform sooner or later, and the expensive machinework will become worthless. A stainless ring set into a larger, *very* carefully machined acrylic ring sounds like a better idea, especially if the system is planned out well enough that the metal ring is replaceable, and spares exist. the machinework tolerances will be critical because *any* mass spinning around the periphery of the platter can easily unbalance the system, doing more harm than good. It would be a good idea for the platters and the periphery clamps to be made by the same machinist, and *at the same time*, as is evidenced by Merrill's asking you to send in your platter. It may not be so much a matter of "one-offs", as very minor differences in production runs, and the criticality of tolerances influencing balance, as suggested above. He probably wants to hand-check the accuracy of the fit, to assure quality, which speaks well of his standards, if I'm making the right guesses. The metal ring & its fit should be somewhat less critical than that of the acrylic mass, making it practical to design it as a replaceable part. Also, I would wonder about the materials cost, as more of each ring will be waste than product after machining. [Just some musings on the operative factors, to consider.] Igor --- Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella wrote: > Jeremy, > > As I was going through the e-mails to create > digests, I found this question > which I don't ever recall having answered. > > The Merrill periphery clamp is an aluminum ring > which has a thin, tapered > lip that grabs approximately half of the record's > lead-in groove. As you'd > imagine, this lip has to be thin enough to clear the > outer bottom edge of > the cartridge as it plays on the lead-in groove. > > The clamp weighs about 2 pounds and flattens just > about any edge warp I've > ever encountered. There are some cartridge bodies > that it interferes with > marginally. I once had a Linn cartridge which I had > to file about a 1/16" > off the bottom outside edge of the cartridge > (creating a slope, or taper) in > order to clear the clamp. All in all, it works > well but adds an additional > step to playing an LP. Bass improves (tightens up), > even on flat records. > Overall resolution is slightly better with the > clamp, also. > > I'm inclined to mess with the reflex clamp concept > that Oracle & VPI use > first. If it's 90% as good as the Merrill clamp, > I'll probably stay with > it. > > The clamp costs ~ $225, and I *ruined* mine !! The > lip I described above is > somewhat fragile. I used to have a turntable stand > (250 lbs of MDF & sand > !!) which I put one of those plastic dip hooks on > the side of. While > changing records, I'd hang the clamp this hook. I > ended up putting little > ripples in the lip I described above. When I tried > to straighten them, the > lip detached from the body of the clamp :-(( > > When I contacted Merrill about a replacement, he > said to send in my platter > to match up the platter to the clamp. These are > obviously "one-off's". > Knowing what I do about CNC machining (thanks to > this project), I can see > that the price he's charging is reasonable. Whether > I want to pay that > price is another question, of course. > > The idea of a CNC machined acrylic jobbie is indeed > provocative. I hadn't > thought of going in this direction. It might > actually be cheaper too! I > can envision a ring made of acrylic, on top of > which, a thin, stainless or > aluminum lip is bonded. This would probably be > cheaper than ordering from > Merrill (if we got the order size up to 4 to 6). > > Thom > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeremy Epstein > To: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 11:36 AM > Subject: Re: Scheu-Bearing & Platter > > > I must say this - there have been a **gazillion** > times when I wished I > could clamp the periphery of an LP, this is > definitely a feature I would > very much like to have on this turntable - what > about a CNC machined > acrylic jobbie to match the platter? In my > experience there are a > certain percentage of records that have a ripple > near the outside edge > and these "whoops"'s are among the hardest grooves > to track. Murphy's > law states that Cut 1 is always the one you want to > hear on these > particular records, too. How big a deal would it be > to get matching > clamp-rings made at the same time as the platters? > > I think the clamp-storage issue is a non-issue - I > have som much crap > all over my house already, what's one more little > ring? > > How much does an aftermarket perimeter clamp run? > How does it work - > what pulls it down onto the LP? A clamp to the > bottom of the platter or > just weight? > > -j > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:27:20 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Jeremy Epstein (w); Ken Schei (h); Ken Schei (w); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thom Mackris (w); Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) Of course after writing that response to Jeremy (this was done in the middle of compiling the last of the bearing/platter digests ... whew !!! Stripping all of that quoted text), I had additional thoughts. I had similar thoughts as far as using something like a ring of stainless steel for the "lip" of the periphery clamp. One problem with the whole idea of using acrylic, is how much you'd need to get the whole thing to weigh ~ 2lbs. which is about what the aluminum Merrill clamp weighs. This seems to be about the absolute minimum weight for a clamp of this type as it flattens about 95% of my record collection. I think that much lighter would not be worth the effort. One does indeed have to wonder about the materials cost - doing this in acrylic. It almost sounds as if you'd have to make it a full 3" thick in order to approach the 2 lb. weight threshold. It's an idea to kick around, I suppose. I'm really curious about the effectiveness of the VPI or Oracle reflex clamps. If you recall, I rigged up my Merrill clamp a while back in an attempt simulate this. The problem I had was that the Merrill clamp falls about 3/8" short of the edge of the label. In order to simulate the clamp, I cut a 1/8" ring of cork & using double sided tape, affixed it to the underside of the clamp at its periphery. I then cut a small donut (maybe 3/4 to 7/8" in diameter) which I slipped over the spindle, before placing the record on the platter. It appears as if you need the extra width of the VPI (and Oracle ?) clamps in order to get enough leverage to cinch down the record. If Grant gets an interim VPI, perhaps I'll be able to inspect this system first hand. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Igor Kuznetsoff Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2000 1:38 PM Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp An intriguing concept. An aluminum lip would probably be a very bad idea, for the reasons already cited. Being soft, it is sure to deform sooner or later, and the expensive machinework will become worthless. A stainless ring set into a larger, *very* carefully machined acrylic ring sounds like a better idea, especially if the system is planned out well enough that the metal ring is replaceable, and spares exist. the machinework tolerances will be critical because *any* mass spinning around the periphery of the platter can easily unbalance the system, doing more harm than good. It would be a good idea for the platters and the periphery clamps to be made by the same machinist, and *at the same time*, as is evidenced by Merrill's asking you to send in your platter. It may not be so much a matter of "one-offs", as very minor differences in production runs, and the criticality of tolerances influencing balance, as suggested above. He probably wants to hand-check the accuracy of the fit, to assure quality, which speaks well of his standards, if I'm making the right guesses. The metal ring & its fit should be somewhat less critical than that of the acrylic mass, making it practical to design it as a replaceable part. Also, I would wonder about the materials cost, as more of each ring will be waste than product after machining. [Just some musings on the operative factors, to consider.] Igor --- Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella wrote: > Jeremy, > > As I was going through the e-mails to create > digests, I found this question > which I don't ever recall having answered. > > The Merrill periphery clamp is an aluminum ring > which has a thin, tapered > lip that grabs approximately half of the record's > lead-in groove. As you'd > imagine, this lip has to be thin enough to clear the > outer bottom edge of > the cartridge as it plays on the lead-in groove. > > The clamp weighs about 2 pounds and flattens just > about any edge warp I've > ever encountered. There are some cartridge bodies > that it interferes with > marginally. I once had a Linn cartridge which I had > to file about a 1/16" > off the bottom outside edge of the cartridge > (creating a slope, or taper) in > order to clear the clamp. All in all, it works > well but adds an additional > step to playing an LP. Bass improves (tightens up), > even on flat records. > Overall resolution is slightly better with the > clamp, also. > > I'm inclined to mess with the reflex clamp concept > that Oracle & VPI use > first. If it's 90% as good as the Merrill clamp, > I'll probably stay with > it. > > The clamp costs ~ $225, and I *ruined* mine !! The > lip I described above is > somewhat fragile. I used to have a turntable stand > (250 lbs of MDF & sand > !!) which I put one of those plastic dip hooks on > the side of. While > changing records, I'd hang the clamp this hook. I > ended up putting little > ripples in the lip I described above. When I tried > to straighten them, the > lip detached from the body of the clamp :-(( > > When I contacted Merrill about a replacement, he > said to send in my platter > to match up the platter to the clamp. These are > obviously "one-off's". > Knowing what I do about CNC machining (thanks to > this project), I can see > that the price he's charging is reasonable. Whether > I want to pay that > price is another question, of course. > > The idea of a CNC machined acrylic jobbie is indeed > provocative. I hadn't > thought of going in this direction. It might > actually be cheaper too! I > can envision a ring made of acrylic, on top of > which, a thin, stainless or > aluminum lip is bonded. This would probably be > cheaper than ordering from > Merrill (if we got the order size up to 4 to 6). > > Thom > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeremy Epstein > To: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 11:36 AM > Subject: Re: Scheu-Bearing & Platter > > > I must say this - there have been a **gazillion** > times when I wished I > could clamp the periphery of an LP, this is > definitely a feature I would > very much like to have on this turntable - what > about a CNC machined > acrylic jobbie to match the platter? In my > experience there are a > certain percentage of records that have a ripple > near the outside edge > and these "whoops"'s are among the hardest grooves > to track. Murphy's > law states that Cut 1 is always the one you want to > hear on these > particular records, too. How big a deal would it be > to get matching > clamp-rings made at the same time as the platters? > > I think the clamp-storage issue is a non-issue - I > have som much crap > all over my house already, what's one more little > ring? > > How much does an aftermarket perimeter clamp run? > How does it work - > what pulls it down onto the LP? A clamp to the > bottom of the platter or > just weight? > > -j > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:18:25 -0700 From: Jeremy Epstein, Jeremy Epstein To: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella CC: Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Ken Schei (w); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thom Mackris (w); Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) I've been thinking about DIY'ing this periphery clamp idea for a while now and so I have generated several more questions and no answers. First off, is this concept of general interest to the group? I don't want to hijack the discussion, but in my experience, such a turntable accessory would be very useful. The idea of a two-piece structure makes sense. How about a strip of heavy material, which will wrap around the outside of the platter, and be retained by an elastic or some sort of snap-clamp to the edge of the platter. (The snap-clamp would of course have to be balanced somehow, probably a big pain in the ass.) And there could be a circular lip pressed into it, made of some stiffer material (so it could be thin enough at the edge to clear the cartridge.) The assembly could have the following cross-section : (fixed width font please) ____ | | | --- | | S \ | -----________________ | |(__________________ LP | H | | | Platter | | ------___________________ (H=Heavy, S= Stiff.) Anybody have any ideas about the practicality/usefulness of this? Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella wrote: > > Of course after writing that response to Jeremy (this was done in the middle > of compiling the last of the bearing/platter digests ... whew !!! Stripping > all of that quoted text), I had additional thoughts. > > I had similar thoughts as far as using something like a ring of stainless > steel for the "lip" of the periphery clamp. One problem with the whole idea > of using acrylic, is how much you'd need to get the whole thing to weigh ~ > 2lbs. which is about what the aluminum Merrill clamp weighs. This seems to > be about the absolute minimum weight for a clamp of this type as it flattens > about 95% of my record collection. I think that much lighter would not be > worth the effort. > > One does indeed have to wonder about the materials cost - doing this in > acrylic. It almost sounds as if you'd have to make it a full 3" thick in > order to approach the 2 lb. weight threshold. It's an idea to kick around, > I suppose. > > I'm really curious about the effectiveness of the VPI or Oracle reflex > clamps. If you recall, I rigged up my Merrill clamp a while back in an > attempt simulate this. The problem I had was that the Merrill clamp falls > about 3/8" short of the edge of the label. In order to simulate the clamp, > I cut a 1/8" ring of cork & using double sided tape, affixed it to the > underside of the clamp at its periphery. I then cut a small donut (maybe > 3/4 to 7/8" in diameter) which I slipped over the spindle, before placing > the record on the platter. It appears as if you need the extra width of the > VPI (and Oracle ?) clamps in order to get enough leverage to cinch down the > record. > > If Grant gets an interim VPI, perhaps I'll be able to inspect this system > first hand. > > Cheers, > Thom > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Igor Kuznetsoff > Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2000 1:38 PM > Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > An intriguing concept. An aluminum lip would probably > be a very bad idea, for the reasons already cited. > Being soft, it is sure to deform sooner or later, and > the expensive machinework will become worthless. A > stainless ring set into a larger, *very* carefully > machined acrylic ring sounds like a better idea, > especially if the system is planned out well enough > that the metal ring is replaceable, and spares exist. > the machinework tolerances will be critical because > *any* mass spinning around the periphery of the > platter > can easily unbalance the system, doing more harm than > good. It would be a good idea for the platters and > the > periphery clamps to be made by the same machinist, and > *at the same time*, as is evidenced by Merrill's > asking you to send in your platter. It may not be so > much a matter of "one-offs", as very minor differences > in production runs, and the criticality of tolerances > influencing balance, as suggested above. He probably > wants to hand-check the accuracy of the fit, to assure > quality, which speaks well of his standards, if I'm > making the right guesses. The metal ring & its fit > should be somewhat less critical than that of the > acrylic mass, making it practical to design it as a > replaceable part. Also, I would wonder about the > materials cost, as more of each ring will be waste > than product after machining. > [Just some musings on the > operative factors, to consider.] > > Igor > > --- Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > wrote: > > Jeremy, > > > > As I was going through the e-mails to create > > digests, I found this question > > which I don't ever recall having answered. > > > > The Merrill periphery clamp is an aluminum ring > > which has a thin, tapered > > lip that grabs approximately half of the record's > > lead-in groove. As you'd > > imagine, this lip has to be thin enough to clear the > > outer bottom edge of > > the cartridge as it plays on the lead-in groove. > > > > The clamp weighs about 2 pounds and flattens just > > about any edge warp I've > > ever encountered. There are some cartridge bodies > > that it interferes with > > marginally. I once had a Linn cartridge which I had > > to file about a 1/16" > > off the bottom outside edge of the cartridge > > (creating a slope, or taper) in > > order to clear the clamp. All in all, it works > > well but adds an additional > > step to playing an LP. Bass improves (tightens up), > > even on flat records. > > Overall resolution is slightly better with the > > clamp, also. > > > > I'm inclined to mess with the reflex clamp concept > > that Oracle & VPI use > > first. If it's 90% as good as the Merrill clamp, > > I'll probably stay with > > it. > > > > The clamp costs ~ $225, and I *ruined* mine !! The > > lip I described above is > > somewhat fragile. I used to have a turntable stand > > (250 lbs of MDF & sand > > !!) which I put one of those plastic dip hooks on > > the side of. While > > changing records, I'd hang the clamp this hook. I > > ended up putting little > > ripples in the lip I described above. When I tried > > to straighten them, the > > lip detached from the body of the clamp :-(( > > > > When I contacted Merrill about a replacement, he > > said to send in my platter > > to match up the platter to the clamp. These are > > obviously "one-off's". > > Knowing what I do about CNC machining (thanks to > > this project), I can see > > that the price he's charging is reasonable. Whether > > I want to pay that > > price is another question, of course. > > > > The idea of a CNC machined acrylic jobbie is indeed > > provocative. I hadn't > > thought of going in this direction. It might > > actually be cheaper too! I > > can envision a ring made of acrylic, on top of > > which, a thin, stainless or > > aluminum lip is bonded. This would probably be > > cheaper than ordering from > > Merrill (if we got the order size up to 4 to 6). > > > > Thom > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jeremy Epstein > > To: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 11:36 AM > > Subject: Re: Scheu-Bearing & Platter > > > > > > I must say this - there have been a **gazillion** > > times when I wished I > > could clamp the periphery of an LP, this is > > definitely a feature I would > > very much like to have on this turntable - what > > about a CNC machined > > acrylic jobbie to match the platter? In my > > experience there are a > > certain percentage of records that have a ripple > > near the outside edge > > and these "whoops"'s are among the hardest grooves > > to track. Murphy's > > law states that Cut 1 is always the one you want to > > hear on these > > particular records, too. How big a deal would it be > > to get matching > > clamp-rings made at the same time as the platters? > > > > I think the clamp-storage issue is a non-issue - I > > have som much crap > > all over my house already, what's one more little > > ring? > > > > How much does an aftermarket perimeter clamp run? > > How does it work - > > what pulls it down onto the LP? A clamp to the > > bottom of the platter or > > just weight? > > > > -j > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com -- ========================================= Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com ========================================= Sherwood Securities ... .. (800) 435 1240 ========================================= Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:28:12 -0700 From: George Munger, George Munger To: tmackris@earthlink.net Thom, for the sake of the project and in order for a thorough review of existing designs, I would send you my actual VPI clamp, if you think it appropriate, for any measurements, tests, whatever. All I ask is that it be returned as soon as you are done with it, as my tt requires its use for decent performance. Of course, THE best way would probably be for me to perform whatever you ask, if I can. Just let me know. GM >>> "Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella" 01/30 3:27 PM >>> Of course after writing that response to Jeremy (this was done in the middle of compiling the last of the bearing/platter digests ... whew !!! Stripping all of that quoted text), I had additional thoughts. I had similar thoughts as far as using something like a ring of stainless steel for the "lip" of the periphery clamp. One problem with the whole idea of using acrylic, is how much you'd need to get the whole thing to weigh ~ 2lbs. which is about what the aluminum Merrill clamp weighs. This seems to be about the absolute minimum weight for a clamp of this type as it flattens about 95% of my record collection. I think that much lighter would not be worth the effort. One does indeed have to wonder about the materials cost - doing this in acrylic. It almost sounds as if you'd have to make it a full 3" thick in order to approach the 2 lb. weight threshold. It's an idea to kick around, I suppose. I'm really curious about the effectiveness of the VPI or Oracle reflex clamps. If you recall, I rigged up my Merrill clamp a while back in an attempt simulate this. The problem I had was that the Merrill clamp falls about 3/8" short of the edge of the label. In order to simulate the clamp, I cut a 1/8" ring of cork & using double sided tape, affixed it to the underside of the clamp at its periphery. I then cut a small donut (maybe 3/4 to 7/8" in diameter) which I slipped over the spindle, before placing the record on the platter. It appears as if you need the extra width of the VPI (and Oracle ?) clamps in order to get enough leverage to cinch down the record. If Grant gets an interim VPI, perhaps I'll be able to inspect this system first hand. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Igor Kuznetsoff Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2000 1:38 PM Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp An intriguing concept. An aluminum lip would probably be a very bad idea, for the reasons already cited. Being soft, it is sure to deform sooner or later, and the expensive machinework will become worthless. A stainless ring set into a larger, *very* carefully machined acrylic ring sounds like a better idea, especially if the system is planned out well enough that the metal ring is replaceable, and spares exist. the machinework tolerances will be critical because *any* mass spinning around the periphery of the platter can easily unbalance the system, doing more harm than good. It would be a good idea for the platters and the periphery clamps to be made by the same machinist, and *at the same time*, as is evidenced by Merrill's asking you to send in your platter. It may not be so much a matter of "one-offs", as very minor differences in production runs, and the criticality of tolerances influencing balance, as suggested above. He probably wants to hand-check the accuracy of the fit, to assure quality, which speaks well of his standards, if I'm making the right guesses. The metal ring & its fit should be somewhat less critical than that of the acrylic mass, making it practical to design it as a replaceable part. Also, I would wonder about the materials cost, as more of each ring will be waste than product after machining. [Just some musings on the operative factors, to consider.] Igor --- Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella wrote: > Jeremy, > > As I was going through the e-mails to create > digests, I found this question > which I don't ever recall having answered. > > The Merrill periphery clamp is an aluminum ring > which has a thin, tapered > lip that grabs approximately half of the record's > lead-in groove. As you'd > imagine, this lip has to be thin enough to clear the > outer bottom edge of > the cartridge as it plays on the lead-in groove. > > The clamp weighs about 2 pounds and flattens just > about any edge warp I've > ever encountered. There are some cartridge bodies > that it interferes with > marginally. I once had a Linn cartridge which I had > to file about a 1/16" > off the bottom outside edge of the cartridge > (creating a slope, or taper) in > order to clear the clamp. All in all, it works > well but adds an additional > step to playing an LP. Bass improves (tightens up), > even on flat records. > Overall resolution is slightly better with the > clamp, also. > > I'm inclined to mess with the reflex clamp concept > that Oracle & VPI use > first. If it's 90% as good as the Merrill clamp, > I'll probably stay with > it. > > The clamp costs ~ $225, and I *ruined* mine !! The > lip I described above is > somewhat fragile. I used to have a turntable stand > (250 lbs of MDF & sand > !!) which I put one of those plastic dip hooks on > the side of. While > changing records, I'd hang the clamp this hook. I > ended up putting little > ripples in the lip I described above. When I tried > to straighten them, the > lip detached from the body of the clamp :-(( > > When I contacted Merrill about a replacement, he > said to send in my platter > to match up the platter to the clamp. These are > obviously "one-off's". > Knowing what I do about CNC machining (thanks to > this project), I can see > that the price he's charging is reasonable. Whether > I want to pay that > price is another question, of course. > > The idea of a CNC machined acrylic jobbie is indeed > provocative. I hadn't > thought of going in this direction. It might > actually be cheaper too! I > can envision a ring made of acrylic, on top of > which, a thin, stainless or > aluminum lip is bonded. This would probably be > cheaper than ordering from > Merrill (if we got the order size up to 4 to 6). > > Thom > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeremy Epstein > To: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 11:36 AM > Subject: Re: Scheu-Bearing & Platter > > > I must say this - there have been a **gazillion** > times when I wished I > could clamp the periphery of an LP, this is > definitely a feature I would > very much like to have on this turntable - what > about a CNC machined > acrylic jobbie to match the platter? In my > experience there are a > certain percentage of records that have a ripple > near the outside edge > and these "whoops"'s are among the hardest grooves > to track. Murphy's > law states that Cut 1 is always the one you want to > hear on these > particular records, too. How big a deal would it be > to get matching > clamp-rings made at the same time as the platters? > > I think the clamp-storage issue is a non-issue - I > have som much crap > all over my house already, what's one more little > ring? > > How much does an aftermarket perimeter clamp run? > How does it work - > what pulls it down onto the LP? A clamp to the > bottom of the platter or > just weight? > > -j > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:51:41 -0700 From: Schei, Kenneth, Schei, Kenneth To: 'Jeremy Epstein'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella CC: Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Schei, Kenneth; Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thom Mackris (w); Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) I'd also be interested in such a clamp. I'd like to see the clamp project above the surface of the LP as little as possible. My tone arm lift raises the cartridge enough to offer fail-safe protection to LPs and the stylus from damage do to my clumbsiness. It would not offer that protection to the stylus if the clamp projected much higher. A new stylus for a Grado Platinum is $200 - almost the price of a Teres platter and bearing! Ken > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeremy Epstein [SMTP:jepstein@shwd.com] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 8:15 AM > To: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > Cc: Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day > (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); > Ken Schei (h); Ken Schei (w); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; > Terry Gesualdo; Thom Mackris (w); Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) > Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > I've been thinking about DIY'ing this periphery clamp idea for a while > now and so I have generated several more questions and no answers. > > First off, is this concept of general interest to the group? I don't > want to hijack the discussion, but in my experience, such a turntable > accessory would be very useful. > > The idea of a two-piece structure makes sense. How about a strip of > heavy material, which will wrap around the outside of the platter, and > be retained by an elastic or some sort of snap-clamp to the edge of the > platter. (The snap-clamp would of course have to be balanced somehow, > probably a big pain in the ass.) > > And there could be a circular lip pressed into it, made of some stiffer > material (so it could be thin enough at the edge to clear the > cartridge.) > > > The assembly could have the following cross-section : (fixed width font > please) > > ____ > | | > | --- > | | S \ > | -----________________ > | |(__________________ LP > | H | > | | Platter > | | > ------___________________ > > > > (H=Heavy, S= Stiff.) > > Anybody have any ideas about the practicality/usefulness of this? > > > Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella wrote: > > > > Of course after writing that response to Jeremy (this was done in the > middle > > of compiling the last of the bearing/platter digests ... whew !!! > Stripping > > all of that quoted text), I had additional thoughts. > > > > I had similar thoughts as far as using something like a ring of > stainless > > steel for the "lip" of the periphery clamp. One problem with the whole > idea > > of using acrylic, is how much you'd need to get the whole thing to weigh > ~ > > 2lbs. which is about what the aluminum Merrill clamp weighs. This seems > to > > be about the absolute minimum weight for a clamp of this type as it > flattens > > about 95% of my record collection. I think that much lighter would not > be > > worth the effort. > > > > One does indeed have to wonder about the materials cost - doing this in > > acrylic. It almost sounds as if you'd have to make it a full 3" thick > in > > order to approach the 2 lb. weight threshold. It's an idea to kick > around, > > I suppose. > > > > I'm really curious about the effectiveness of the VPI or Oracle reflex > > clamps. If you recall, I rigged up my Merrill clamp a while back in an > > attempt simulate this. The problem I had was that the Merrill clamp > falls > > about 3/8" short of the edge of the label. In order to simulate the > clamp, > > I cut a 1/8" ring of cork & using double sided tape, affixed it to the > > underside of the clamp at its periphery. I then cut a small donut > (maybe > > 3/4 to 7/8" in diameter) which I slipped over the spindle, before > placing > > the record on the platter. It appears as if you need the extra width of > the > > VPI (and Oracle ?) clamps in order to get enough leverage to cinch down > the > > record. > > > > If Grant gets an interim VPI, perhaps I'll be able to inspect this > system > > first hand. > > > > Cheers, > > Thom > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Igor Kuznetsoff > > Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2000 1:38 PM > > Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > > > An intriguing concept. An aluminum lip would probably > > be a very bad idea, for the reasons already cited. > > Being soft, it is sure to deform sooner or later, and > > the expensive machinework will become worthless. A > > stainless ring set into a larger, *very* carefully > > machined acrylic ring sounds like a better idea, > > especially if the system is planned out well enough > > that the metal ring is replaceable, and spares exist. > > the machinework tolerances will be critical because > > *any* mass spinning around the periphery of the > > platter > > can easily unbalance the system, doing more harm than > > good. It would be a good idea for the platters and > > the > > periphery clamps to be made by the same machinist, and > > *at the same time*, as is evidenced by Merrill's > > asking you to send in your platter. It may not be so > > much a matter of "one-offs", as very minor differences > > in production runs, and the criticality of tolerances > > influencing balance, as suggested above. He probably > > wants to hand-check the accuracy of the fit, to assure > > quality, which speaks well of his standards, if I'm > > making the right guesses. The metal ring & its fit > > should be somewhat less critical than that of the > > acrylic mass, making it practical to design it as a > > replaceable part. Also, I would wonder about the > > materials cost, as more of each ring will be waste > > than product after machining. > > [Just some musings on the > > operative factors, to consider.] > > > > Igor > > > > --- Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > > wrote: > > > Jeremy, > > > > > > As I was going through the e-mails to create > > > digests, I found this question > > > which I don't ever recall having answered. > > > > > > The Merrill periphery clamp is an aluminum ring > > > which has a thin, tapered > > > lip that grabs approximately half of the record's > > > lead-in groove. As you'd > > > imagine, this lip has to be thin enough to clear the > > > outer bottom edge of > > > the cartridge as it plays on the lead-in groove. > > > > > > The clamp weighs about 2 pounds and flattens just > > > about any edge warp I've > > > ever encountered. There are some cartridge bodies > > > that it interferes with > > > marginally. I once had a Linn cartridge which I had > > > to file about a 1/16" > > > off the bottom outside edge of the cartridge > > > (creating a slope, or taper) in > > > order to clear the clamp. All in all, it works > > > well but adds an additional > > > step to playing an LP. Bass improves (tightens up), > > > even on flat records. > > > Overall resolution is slightly better with the > > > clamp, also. > > > > > > I'm inclined to mess with the reflex clamp concept > > > that Oracle & VPI use > > > first. If it's 90% as good as the Merrill clamp, > > > I'll probably stay with > > > it. > > > > > > The clamp costs ~ $225, and I *ruined* mine !! The > > > lip I described above is > > > somewhat fragile. I used to have a turntable stand > > > (250 lbs of MDF & sand > > > !!) which I put one of those plastic dip hooks on > > > the side of. While > > > changing records, I'd hang the clamp this hook. I > > > ended up putting little > > > ripples in the lip I described above. When I tried > > > to straighten them, the > > > lip detached from the body of the clamp :-(( > > > > > > When I contacted Merrill about a replacement, he > > > said to send in my platter > > > to match up the platter to the clamp. These are > > > obviously "one-off's". > > > Knowing what I do about CNC machining (thanks to > > > this project), I can see > > > that the price he's charging is reasonable. Whether > > > I want to pay that > > > price is another question, of course. > > > > > > The idea of a CNC machined acrylic jobbie is indeed > > > provocative. I hadn't > > > thought of going in this direction. It might > > > actually be cheaper too! I > > > can envision a ring made of acrylic, on top of > > > which, a thin, stainless or > > > aluminum lip is bonded. This would probably be > > > cheaper than ordering from > > > Merrill (if we got the order size up to 4 to 6). > > > > > > Thom > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Jeremy Epstein > > > To: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 11:36 AM > > > Subject: Re: Scheu-Bearing & Platter > > > > > > > > > I must say this - there have been a **gazillion** > > > times when I wished I > > > could clamp the periphery of an LP, this is > > > definitely a feature I would > > > very much like to have on this turntable - what > > > about a CNC machined > > > acrylic jobbie to match the platter? In my > > > experience there are a > > > certain percentage of records that have a ripple > > > near the outside edge > > > and these "whoops"'s are among the hardest grooves > > > to track. Murphy's > > > law states that Cut 1 is always the one you want to > > > hear on these > > > particular records, too. How big a deal would it be > > > to get matching > > > clamp-rings made at the same time as the platters? > > > > > > I think the clamp-storage issue is a non-issue - I > > > have som much crap > > > all over my house already, what's one more little > > > ring? > > > > > > How much does an aftermarket perimeter clamp run? > > > How does it work - > > > what pulls it down onto the LP? A clamp to the > > > bottom of the platter or > > > just weight? > > > > > > -j > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://im.yahoo.com > > -- > ========================================= > Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com > ========================================= > Sherwood Securities ... .. (800) 435 1240 > ========================================= Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:03:18 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'Schei, Kenneth'; 'Jeremy Epstein'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella CC: Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Mackris, Thom G.; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) All, Even though the lip of my Merrill clamp has some miner warps, I can certainly pass it around for your experimentation & pleasure. Our platter diameter will accomodate it. I am however, still hopeful that something like the Oracle or VPI reflex clamp will get us 90% of the way there with a whole lot less hassle. It's good to have flexibility and options, however. Thom -----Original Message----- From: Schei, Kenneth [mailto:SCHEIKE@asa.org] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 8:54 AM Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp I'd also be interested in such a clamp. I'd like to see the clamp project above the surface of the LP as little as possible. My tone arm lift raises the cartridge enough to offer fail-safe protection to LPs and the stylus from damage do to my clumbsiness. It would not offer that protection to the stylus if the clamp projected much higher. A new stylus for a Grado Platinum is $200 - almost the price of a Teres platter and bearing! Ken Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:22:40 -0700 From: Jeremy Epstein, Jeremy Epstein To: Mackris, Thom G. CC: 'Schei, Kenneth'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) "Mackris, Thom G." wrote: > > All, > > Even though the lip of my Merrill clamp has some miner warps, I can > certainly pass it around for your experimentation & pleasure. Our platter > diameter will accomodate it. > > I am however, still hopeful that something like the Oracle or VPI reflex > clamp will get us 90% of the way there with a whole lot less hassle. It's > good to have flexibility and options, however. > > Thom I've used a central clamp (the little "pod" type that leeches onto the spindle) and I can't see how a label-area clamp will ever address the type of warps that I find most vexing : the little "ripples" in the first track or two, which tend to really throw the stylus around and make it very tough to track. It's not really a question of 90%, there is a basic function of the perimeter clamp that is just different. BTW, when I had to hang up on you Sunday, my wife had indeed spilled an entire gallon of paint on our bathroom floor. Oy vey iz mir! -j -- ========================================= Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com ========================================= Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:55:21 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'Jeremy Epstein'; Mackris, Thom G. CC: 'Schei, Kenneth'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) Jeremy, Feh! I hate when I spill paint !! I think we need Steve Z. or George Munger (whom you'll meet at NY Noise on 3/11, Jeremy) to address this issue for us. I'll try to explain two different clamping approaches which don't use any form of periphery clamping (i.e. Merrill's clamp and vacuum clamping). The first method is used by Well Tempered, and perhaps other turntables as well. The platter is machined so that it is slightly higher at the record edge than at the label area. On Ron W's WTT, this height differential is the thickness of one and a half quarters (approx. 0.1"). Ron and I agree that this is too much, and Ron does not completely cinch down on his records with the screw down center clamp. From the perspctive of a commercial manufacturer, I can see where they'd want to be able to flatten every record (or say, 98% of them). I experimented with this sloped platter method on my Merrill, using a 3/32" corrk mat (from the hobby store). I simulated about 2/3 of the slope in Ron's platter by cutting out a ring of hard foam (1/2" wide) to shims up the mat in the area of the record lead-in groove. This flattens most records fairly well, but not nearly as well as my Merrill clamp does. There are obvious issues relating to the azimuth adjustment of the cartridge as well as compensating for anti-skate (by having to dial in more of it) with this technique. The VPI & Oracle reflex clamps attempt to accomplish the same thing only in reverse. I the case of the VPI, a small, soft washer is placed over the record spindle before the record goes on the platter (it just stays there) and a convex, hard washer is used by the Oracle. The center clamp is fairly wide (almost the entire record label diameter. It contacts the record only at its circumference. When the clamp is screwed down, it forces the record to bow into a convex shape, apparently flattening out most warps (out to the lead in goove ??). Both clamps are tapered near their edge so as not to interfere with the cartridge body. My attempts to simulate this clamping method with my Merrill clamp were unsuccessful, because my Merrill center clamp is about 1/2" less in *radius* than the radius of the record label (i.e. 3" diameter vs. approx 4" diameter label). I glued a ring of cork under the clamp at its edge and used a small washer made of cork to simulate this clamping methog. I'm guessing that this narrower clamp doesn't exert enough leverage on the record to effect the necessary bow. Grant reports that the clamp worked reasonably well on the VPI he once owned. An advantage to this technique over that of the Well Tempered is that you get some anti skating force for "free" since the slope of the record is away from the spindle rather than towards it as in the WTT. Azimuth adjustment for fixed azimuth tonearms is still an issue, however. Thom -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Epstein [mailto:jepstein@shwd.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:20 AM Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp I've used a central clamp (the little "pod" type that leeches onto the spindle) and I can't see how a label-area clamp will ever address the type of warps that I find most vexing : the little "ripples" in the first track or two, which tend to really throw the stylus around and make it very tough to track. It's not really a question of 90%, there is a basic function of the perimeter clamp that is just different. BTW, when I had to hang up on you Sunday, my wife had indeed spilled an entire gallon of paint on our bathroom floor. Oy vey iz mir! -j -- ========================================= Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com ========================================= Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:40:43 -0700 From: Schei, Kenneth, Schei, Kenneth To: 'Mackris, Thom G.'; 'Jeremy Epstein' CC: Schei, Kenneth; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) This method of clamping results in an LP forming a shallow cone, with the vertex down. The slope of the cone disrupts the the azimuth and antiskating because the record surface is no longer level at the contact point of the stylus. Soooo, why not re-level the turntable platter so that the record surface *is* level at the stylus contact point? Assuming the conical surface on the platter is flat, the surface of the LP should also be fairly flat, e.g. not a spherical surface, from the edge to the inside of the playing area. In order to tilt the table we would have to readjust the tone arm support so that the tone arm remained level. The platter and bearing would be out of plumb 0.1" in 6", or 1.67%, which would be negligible or might even improve bearing performance by slightly preloading it. At first I thought this was a bizzare idea, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. Am I completely loco? Ken Ken Schei, P.E. Project Engineer Antarctic Support Associates Email address: scheike@asa.org Phone: 303-643-0163 > -----Original Message----- > From: Mackris, Thom G. [SMTP:tgmackris@vicorpinc.com] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:47 AM > To: 'Jeremy Epstein'; Mackris, Thom G. > Cc: 'Schei, Kenneth'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe > Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave > Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, > Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); > Thomas Martin(w) > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > The first method is used by Well Tempered, and perhaps other turntables as > well. The platter is machined so that it is slightly higher at the record > edge than at the label area. On Ron W's WTT, this height differential is > the thickness of one and a half quarters (approx. 0.1"). Ron and I agree > that this is too much, and Ron does not completely cinch down on his > records > with the screw down center clamp.......There are > obvious issues relating to the azimuth adjustment of the cartridge as well > as compensating for anti-skate (by having to dial in more of it) with this > technique. > > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:49:50 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'Schei, Kenneth'; Mackris, Thom G.; 'Jeremy Epstein' CC: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) Loco? We're all Bozo's on this buss :-)) I'm hoping that one of these two methods ends up being our final solution too, but at the same time, I'm trying to not pre-load my expectations (the scientific method and all that stuff). The VPI/Oracle solution has the advantage that the platter doesn't need the slope machined into it, along with the "built in" anti skate it provides. I would love to see a working implementation of this to see if there is enough clamping force. The WTT requires a sloped surface on either the platter or derived from a mat, but there is certainly more leverage to effect clamping since you are working with the distance from the edge of the clamp to the edge of the LP. I'm guesing we don't want to re-level the platter (i.e. move the bearing spindle away from vertical), but I don't know the answer to this. Re-levelling the table would certainly only affect anti skate, and not azimuth. Non-adjustable tonearms would require azimuth experimentation at the tonearm mounting point (shimming the armboard area). Cheers, Thom -----Original Message----- From: Schei, Kenneth [mailto:SCHEIKE@asa.org] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 10:43 AM Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp This method of clamping results in an LP forming a shallow cone, with the vertex down. The slope of the cone disrupts the the azimuth and antiskating because the record surface is no longer level at the contact point of the stylus. Soooo, why not re-level the turntable platter so that the record surface *is* level at the stylus contact point? Assuming the conical surface on the platter is flat, the surface of the LP should also be fairly flat, e.g. not a spherical surface, from the edge to the inside of the playing area. In order to tilt the table we would have to readjust the tone arm support so that the tone arm remained level. The platter and bearing would be out of plumb 0.1" in 6", or 1.67%, which would be negligible or might even improve bearing performance by slightly preloading it. At first I thought this was a bizzare idea, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. Am I completely loco? Ken Ken Schei, P.E. Project Engineer Antarctic Support Associates Email address: scheike@asa.org Phone: 303-643-0163 > -----Original Message----- > From: Mackris, Thom G. [SMTP:tgmackris@vicorpinc.com] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:47 AM > To: 'Jeremy Epstein'; Mackris, Thom G. > Cc: 'Schei, Kenneth'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe > Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave > Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, > Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); > Thomas Martin(w) > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > The first method is used by Well Tempered, and perhaps other turntables as > well. The platter is machined so that it is slightly higher at the record > edge than at the label area. On Ron W's WTT, this height differential is > the thickness of one and a half quarters (approx. 0.1"). Ron and I agree > that this is too much, and Ron does not completely cinch down on his > records > with the screw down center clamp.......There are > obvious issues relating to the azimuth adjustment of the cartridge as well > as compensating for anti-skate (by having to dial in more of it) with this > technique. > > Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:29:12 -0700 From: Jeremy Epstein, Jeremy Epstein To: Schei, Kenneth CC: 'Mackris, Thom G.'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) To me (and strictly IMHO) these methods make NO sense intuitively - they change the carfully-created alignment geometry, and they will only work well with the 90-95 percent of records that are already flat or *very* gently warped. So what? My <20 dollar "Pod" works fine on these records too. As I understand it, the Merrill periphery system will grunt the "trouble" records into line, almost no matter how bad they are. These are the records I want to work with - I do not anticipate using such a hard-core clamping method on every record (either the dished cone, convex cone, or periphery methods) I just want a "fixit" for badly warped records. As I mentioned before, Murphy's law states that only irreplaceable records with super songs on the first track exhibit such terrible dipsy-doodle warps. (Examples from my own collection : the Rolling Stones' unsurpassed bootleg rockabilly number "Claudine," Bruce Springsteen's hot, funny version of "Viva Las Vegas" from a rare NME Elvis-tribute album, just to name two.) I just want to be able to listen to these without throwing the cartridge out of the groove (at least once, to get a clean cassette dub) and the periphery clamp is the answer, at least as it appears to me. If I have to DIY a one-off version, I guess that's OK, but I kinda feel like I have all these geniuses locked in a room with me so I had oughta put them to work! -j -- ========================================= Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com ========================================= Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:16:55 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'Jeremy Epstein'; Schei, Kenneth CC: Mackris, Thom G.; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) Jeremy, Murphy does indeed prevail with respect to edge warps. I can certainly see playing with a periphery clamp, and worst case scenario (I'ts too darned complicated or expensive to machine) we can always buy from Merrill. I just had my one good (?) thought for the day. Since Merrill likes to see the platter in hand before spec'ing a clamping ring, maybe we should have Bryce machine one, 1" platter with the diameter we spec'd out. This could be used to send out to Merrill whenever someone decides he wants a ring. I was planning on using my Merrill platter for this purpose should the time come, but the possibility exists that I will sell the turntable if my dreams are realized in the Teres. I'll bet a 1" platter wouldn't cost all that much. Chris could be the repository for it. We could amortize it's cost over the dozen or so participants. This might be cheap insurance. Thom -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Epstein [mailto:jepstein@shwd.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp To me (and strictly IMHO) these methods make NO sense intuitively - they change the carfully-created alignment geometry, and they will only work well with the 90-95 percent of records that are already flat or *very* gently warped. So what? My <20 dollar "Pod" works fine on these records too. As I understand it, the Merrill periphery system will grunt the "trouble" records into line, almost no matter how bad they are. These are the records I want to work with - I do not anticipate using such a hard-core clamping method on every record (either the dished cone, convex cone, or periphery methods) I just want a "fixit" for badly warped records. As I mentioned before, Murphy's law states that only irreplaceable records with super songs on the first track exhibit such terrible dipsy-doodle warps. (Examples from my own collection : the Rolling Stones' unsurpassed bootleg rockabilly number "Claudine," Bruce Springsteen's hot, funny version of "Viva Las Vegas" from a rare NME Elvis-tribute album, just to name two.) I just want to be able to listen to these without throwing the cartridge out of the groove (at least once, to get a clean cassette dub) and the periphery clamp is the answer, at least as it appears to me. If I have to DIY a one-off version, I guess that's OK, but I kinda feel like I have all these geniuses locked in a room with me so I had oughta put them to work! -j -- ========================================= Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com ========================================= Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:36:42 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: Jeremy Epstein; Schei, Kenneth CC: 'Mackris, Thom G.'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) I agree, Jeremy. No matter how radical the other solutions get, they would attempting to press the warps down via a long, flexible "arm", and can never be as effective as applying direct pressure. Additionally, the other solutions discussed will create **non-linear** collateral anti-skate & azimuth problems, or a problem with gyroscopic forces (see other posts). I --- Jeremy Epstein wrote: > To me (and strictly IMHO) these methods make NO > sense intuitively - they > change the carfully-created alignment geometry, and > they will only work > well with the 90-95 percent of records that are > already flat or *very* > gently warped. So what? My <20 dollar "Pod" works > fine on these records > too. As I understand it, the Merrill periphery > system will grunt the > "trouble" records into line, almost no matter how > bad they are. These > are the records I want to work with - I do not > anticipate using such a > hard-core clamping method on every record (either > the dished cone, > convex cone, or periphery methods) I just want a > "fixit" for badly > warped records. As I mentioned before, Murphy's law > states that only > irreplaceable records with super songs on the first > track exhibit such > terrible dipsy-doodle warps. (Examples from my own > collection : the > Rolling Stones' unsurpassed bootleg rockabilly > number "Claudine," Bruce > Springsteen's hot, funny version of "Viva Las Vegas" > from a rare NME > Elvis-tribute album, just to name two.) I just want > to be able to listen > to these without throwing the cartridge out of the > groove (at least > once, to get a clean cassette dub) and the periphery > clamp is the > answer, at least as it appears to me. > > If I have to DIY a one-off version, I guess that's > OK, but I kinda feel > like I have all these geniuses locked in a room with > me so I had oughta > put them to work! > > -j > > > -- > ========================================= > Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com > ========================================= > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:44:36 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'Igor Kuznetsoff'; Jeremy Epstein; Schei, Kenneth CC: Mackris, Thom G.; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) Hi Igor, As I posted privately to Jeremy, I'm trying to figure out how to do this for less than what Merrill charges. Below is a copy of my reply to Jeremy. It seems relevant to the group. I am torn between the demonstrated effectiveness of Merrill's clamping method and the extra step involved in playing records (not to mention the expense of achieving this clamping). One thing fer shure, it certainly would alow or records to make intimate contact with that great platter we're building a *definite* plus IMHO.... vacuum clamping without the pump chatter. Cheers, Thom [beginning of copied text ...] Jeremy, One thing I didn't make clear about the two "bend the record" solutions (VPI/Oracle, and the WTT) is that when I said that they deal with 90-95% of the warps (according to Grant's report), I meant that the 5-10% of the records are not *perfectly* flattened. The records are still very playable and won't launch your stylus. This is why I'm hopeful that one of these two solutions will work adequately. I fear, however that Merrill's clamp will still raise the sonic bar a bit. How much, remains to be seen, but we do have one clamp lying around so we'll know soon enough. My pricing concern has to do with the material we'll be forced to end up with. The ring will have to weigh a couple of pounds. This puts us into metal, doesn't it ?? Probably would cost about $225. Here's an off the wall idea (that I'd never do)... we hang little sacks of lead shot off the ring (perfectly balanced of course) :-)) Cheers, Thom [end of copied text ...] -----Original Message----- From: Igor Kuznetsoff [mailto:gorkuz@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:26 PM Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp I agree, Jeremy. No matter how radical the other solutions get, they would attempting to press the warps down via a long, flexible "arm", and can never be as effective as applying direct pressure. Additionally, the other solutions discussed will create **non-linear** collateral anti-skate & azimuth problems, or a problem with gyroscopic forces (see other posts). I --- Jeremy Epstein wrote: > To me (and strictly IMHO) these methods make NO > sense intuitively - they > change the carfully-created alignment geometry, and > they will only work > well with the 90-95 percent of records that are > already flat or *very* > gently warped. So what? My <20 dollar "Pod" works > fine on these records > too. As I understand it, the Merrill periphery > system will grunt the > "trouble" records into line, almost no matter how > bad they are. These > are the records I want to work with - I do not > anticipate using such a > hard-core clamping method on every record (either > the dished cone, > convex cone, or periphery methods) I just want a > "fixit" for badly > warped records. As I mentioned before, Murphy's law > states that only > irreplaceable records with super songs on the first > track exhibit such > terrible dipsy-doodle warps. (Examples from my own > collection : the > Rolling Stones' unsurpassed bootleg rockabilly > number "Claudine," Bruce > Springsteen's hot, funny version of "Viva Las Vegas" > from a rare NME > Elvis-tribute album, just to name two.) I just want > to be able to listen > to these without throwing the cartridge out of the > groove (at least > once, to get a clean cassette dub) and the periphery > clamp is the > answer, at least as it appears to me. > > If I have to DIY a one-off version, I guess that's > OK, but I kinda feel > like I have all these geniuses locked in a room with > me so I had oughta > put them to work! > > -j > > > -- > ========================================= > Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com > ========================================= > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:50:52 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: Schei, Kenneth; 'Mackris, Thom G.'; 'Jeremy Epstein' CC: Schei, Kenneth; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) Ken, I think this technique may run into a bit of a problem with Mother Nature's Physics Department. If the platter is tipped, we would be spinning a fairly sizeable mass off level, creating gyroscopic resistance. This may pre-load the bearing stably, *or* cause the platter to "hunt" for balance. You know how a top starts to wobble as it spins down? I suspect that hunting may be more likely, causing teeter- tottering (there goes that tt-totty stuff again). I have a feeeeling that I wouldn't like to find out. I --- "Schei, Kenneth" wrote: > This method of clamping results in an LP forming a > shallow cone, with the > vertex down. The slope of the cone disrupts the the > azimuth and antiskating > because the record surface is no longer level at the > contact point of the > stylus. Soooo, why not re-level the turntable > platter so that the record > surface *is* level at the stylus contact point? > Assuming the conical > surface on the platter is flat, the surface of the > LP should also be fairly > flat, e.g. not a spherical surface, from the edge to > the inside of the > playing area. In order to tilt the table we would > have to readjust the tone > arm support so that the tone arm remained level. > The platter and bearing > would be out of plumb 0.1" in 6", or 1.67%, which > would be negligible or > might even improve bearing performance by slightly > preloading it. At first > I thought this was a bizzare idea, but the more I > think about it, the more I > like it. Am I completely loco? > > Ken > > Ken Schei, P.E. > Project Engineer > Antarctic Support Associates > Email address: scheike@asa.org > Phone: 303-643-0163 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mackris, Thom G. > [SMTP:tgmackris@vicorpinc.com] > > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:47 AM > > To: 'Jeremy Epstein'; Mackris, Thom G. > > Cc: 'Schei, Kenneth'; Thom Mackris / Joan > Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe > > Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day > (h); Chris Brady; Dave > > Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); > Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, > > Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; > Thomas Martin (h); > > Thomas Martin(w) > > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > > > The first method is used by Well Tempered, and > perhaps other turntables as > > well. The platter is machined so that it is > slightly higher at the record > > edge than at the label area. On Ron W's WTT, this > height differential is > > the thickness of one and a half quarters (approx. > 0.1"). Ron and I agree > > that this is too much, and Ron does not completely > cinch down on his > > records > > with the screw down center clamp.......There are > > obvious issues relating to the azimuth adjustment > of the cartridge as well > > as compensating for anti-skate (by having to dial > in more of it) with this > > technique. > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:56:02 -0700 From: Schei, Kenneth, Schei, Kenneth To: 'Igor Kuznetsoff'; Jeremy Epstein CC: 'Mackris, Thom G.'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) I agree also. Lest anybody misunderstand, I am not advocating any change to our present TT design, especially for such a radical idea. :>) I was just throwing it out as food for thought, and maybe as something that could be temporarily retrofitted to an existing table for experimental purposes. Ken > -----Original Message----- > From: Igor Kuznetsoff [SMTP:gorkuz@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:26 PM > To: Jeremy Epstein; Schei, Kenneth > Cc: 'Mackris, Thom G.'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; > Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave > Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, > Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); > Thomas Martin(w) > Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > I agree, Jeremy. No matter how radical the other > solutions get, they would attempting to press the > warps down via a long, flexible "arm", and can never > be as effective as applying direct pressure. > Additionally, the other solutions discussed will > create > **non-linear** > collateral anti-skate & azimuth problems, or a problem > with gyroscopic forces (see other posts). > > I > > --- Jeremy Epstein wrote: > > To me (and strictly IMHO) these methods make NO > > sense intuitively - they > > change the carfully-created alignment geometry, and > > they will only work > > well with the 90-95 percent of records that are > > already flat or *very* > > gently warped. So what? My <20 dollar "Pod" works > > fine on these records > > too. As I understand it, the Merrill periphery > > system will grunt the > > "trouble" records into line, almost no matter how > > bad they are. These > > are the records I want to work with - I do not > > anticipate using such a > > hard-core clamping method on every record (either > > the dished cone, > > convex cone, or periphery methods) I just want a > > "fixit" for badly > > warped records. As I mentioned before, Murphy's law > > states that only > > irreplaceable records with super songs on the first > > track exhibit such > > terrible dipsy-doodle warps. (Examples from my own > > collection : the > > Rolling Stones' unsurpassed bootleg rockabilly > > number "Claudine," Bruce > > Springsteen's hot, funny version of "Viva Las Vegas" > > from a rare NME > > Elvis-tribute album, just to name two.) I just want > > to be able to listen > > to these without throwing the cartridge out of the > > groove (at least > > once, to get a clean cassette dub) and the periphery > > clamp is the > > answer, at least as it appears to me. > > > > If I have to DIY a one-off version, I guess that's > > OK, but I kinda feel > > like I have all these geniuses locked in a room with > > me so I had oughta > > put them to work! > > > > -j > > > > > > -- > > ========================================= > > Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com > > ========================================= > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:59:25 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'Igor Kuznetsoff'; Schei, Kenneth; Mackris, Thom G.; 'Jeremy Epstein' CC: Schei, Kenneth; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) Igor, Ken Indeed, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there are some good reasons why people strive to get their 'tables perfectly level. It seems as if this topic was discussed somewhere in the bearing & platter design ... but maybe that was a past life, or an offline conversation. BTW, the reason I'm a bit slow about getting the final spindle height dimensions back to Chris, is because I'm toying with the idea of how much mat thickness to allow for, while still exposing enough thread (in the threaded spindle version) to allow the clamp to grab the spindle. In my Merrill clamp, the threads are a bit recessed, and when use the 3/32" cork mat (I may have erroneously reported 3/16 in a previous post ... damn English system #%@), the clamp grabs only 2-3 threads (rotations). Steve, you are using a sorbo mat over your Oracle, aren't you? I'm guessing that it's at least 1/8" thick. Your spindle height obviously gives you no problems? IIRC, your total spindle height is11/16" (1/16" shorter than my 3/4" Merrill spindle) with the threaded and unthreaded portions being approximately equal. I looked for your post on this yesterday and couldn't find it. Cheers, Thom -----Original Message----- From: Igor Kuznetsoff [mailto:gorkuz@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:38 PM Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Ken, I think this technique may run into a bit of a problem with Mother Nature's Physics Department. If the platter is tipped, we would be spinning a fairly sizeable mass off level, creating gyroscopic resistance. This may pre-load the bearing stably, *or* cause the platter to "hunt" for balance. You know how a top starts to wobble as it spins down? I suspect that hunting may be more likely, causing teeter- tottering (there goes that tt-totty stuff again). I have a feeeeling that I wouldn't like to find out. I --- "Schei, Kenneth" wrote: > This method of clamping results in an LP forming a > shallow cone, with the > vertex down. The slope of the cone disrupts the the > azimuth and antiskating > because the record surface is no longer level at the > contact point of the > stylus. Soooo, why not re-level the turntable > platter so that the record > surface *is* level at the stylus contact point? > Assuming the conical > surface on the platter is flat, the surface of the > LP should also be fairly > flat, e.g. not a spherical surface, from the edge to > the inside of the > playing area. In order to tilt the table we would > have to readjust the tone > arm support so that the tone arm remained level. > The platter and bearing > would be out of plumb 0.1" in 6", or 1.67%, which > would be negligible or > might even improve bearing performance by slightly > preloading it. At first > I thought this was a bizzare idea, but the more I > think about it, the more I > like it. Am I completely loco? > > Ken > > Ken Schei, P.E. > Project Engineer > Antarctic Support Associates > Email address: scheike@asa.org > Phone: 303-643-0163 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mackris, Thom G. > [SMTP:tgmackris@vicorpinc.com] > > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:47 AM > > To: 'Jeremy Epstein'; Mackris, Thom G. > > Cc: 'Schei, Kenneth'; Thom Mackris / Joan > Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe > > Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day > (h); Chris Brady; Dave > > Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); > Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, > > Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; > Thomas Martin (h); > > Thomas Martin(w) > > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > > > The first method is used by Well Tempered, and > perhaps other turntables as > > well. The platter is machined so that it is > slightly higher at the record > > edge than at the label area. On Ron W's WTT, this > height differential is > > the thickness of one and a half quarters (approx. > 0.1"). Ron and I agree > > that this is too much, and Ron does not completely > cinch down on his > > records > > with the screw down center clamp.......There are > > obvious issues relating to the azimuth adjustment > of the cartridge as well > > as compensating for anti-skate (by having to dial > in more of it) with this > > technique. > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:04:53 -0700 From: Schei, Kenneth, Schei, Kenneth To: 'Igor Kuznetsoff'; Schei, Kenneth; 'Mackris, Thom G.'; 'Jeremy Epstein' CC: Schei, Kenneth; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) The gyroscopic resistance only occurs when the axis of a spinning mass is moving. Once the axis of spin is fixed motionless in any orientation, there is no longer any gyroscopic resistance. As an experiment you can hold a spinning bicycle wheel in any orientation; if you hold it steady you won't feel any resistance or instability until you try to move the axis of the wheel to another orientation. Ken > -----Original Message----- > From: Igor Kuznetsoff [SMTP:gorkuz@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:38 PM > To: Schei, Kenneth; 'Mackris, Thom G.'; 'Jeremy Epstein' > Cc: Schei, Kenneth; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe > Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave > Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, > Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); > Thomas Martin(w) > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > Ken, > I think this technique may run into a bit of a > problem with Mother Nature's Physics Department. If > the platter is tipped, we would be spinning a fairly > sizeable mass off level, creating gyroscopic > resistance. This may pre-load the bearing stably, > *or* cause the platter to "hunt" for balance. You > know how a top starts to wobble as it spins down? I > suspect that hunting may be more likely, causing > teeter- tottering (there goes that tt-totty stuff > again). I have a feeeeling that I wouldn't like to > find out. > > I > > --- "Schei, Kenneth" wrote: > > This method of clamping results in an LP forming a > > shallow cone, with the > > vertex down. The slope of the cone disrupts the the > > azimuth and antiskating > > because the record surface is no longer level at the > > contact point of the > > stylus. Soooo, why not re-level the turntable > > platter so that the record > > surface *is* level at the stylus contact point? > > Assuming the conical > > surface on the platter is flat, the surface of the > > LP should also be fairly > > flat, e.g. not a spherical surface, from the edge to > > the inside of the > > playing area. In order to tilt the table we would > > have to readjust the tone > > arm support so that the tone arm remained level. > > The platter and bearing > > would be out of plumb 0.1" in 6", or 1.67%, which > > would be negligible or > > might even improve bearing performance by slightly > > preloading it. At first > > I thought this was a bizzare idea, but the more I > > think about it, the more I > > like it. Am I completely loco? > > > > Ken > > > > Ken Schei, P.E. > > Project Engineer > > Antarctic Support Associates > > Email address: scheike@asa.org > > Phone: 303-643-0163 > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Mackris, Thom G. > > [SMTP:tgmackris@vicorpinc.com] > > > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:47 AM > > > To: 'Jeremy Epstein'; Mackris, Thom G. > > > Cc: 'Schei, Kenneth'; Thom Mackris / Joan > > Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe > > > Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day > > (h); Chris Brady; Dave > > > Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); > > Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, > > > Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; > > Thomas Martin (h); > > > Thomas Martin(w) > > > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > > > > > The first method is used by Well Tempered, and > > perhaps other turntables as > > > well. The platter is machined so that it is > > slightly higher at the record > > > edge than at the label area. On Ron W's WTT, this > > height differential is > > > the thickness of one and a half quarters (approx. > > 0.1"). Ron and I agree > > > that this is too much, and Ron does not completely > > cinch down on his > > > records > > > with the screw down center clamp.......There are > > > obvious issues relating to the azimuth adjustment > > of the cartridge as well > > > as compensating for anti-skate (by having to dial > > in more of it) with this > > > technique. > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:06:23 -0700 From: Schei, Kenneth, Schei, Kenneth To: 'Mackris, Thom G.'; 'Igor Kuznetsoff'; Schei, Kenneth; 'Jeremy Epstein' CC: Schei, Kenneth; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) The reason people strive to get their tables perfectly level is that they are designed to operate that way. Ken > -----Original Message----- > From: Mackris, Thom G. [SMTP:tgmackris@vicorpinc.com] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:52 PM > To: 'Igor Kuznetsoff'; Schei, Kenneth; Mackris, Thom G.; 'Jeremy > Epstein' > Cc: Schei, Kenneth; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill > Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); > George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron > Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas > Martin(w) > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > Igor, Ken > > Indeed, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there are some good reasons > why > people strive to get their 'tables perfectly level. It seems as if this > topic was discussed somewhere in the bearing & platter design ... but > maybe > that was a past life, or an offline conversation. > > BTW, the reason I'm a bit slow about getting the final spindle height > dimensions back to Chris, is because I'm toying with the idea of how much > mat thickness to allow for, while still exposing enough thread (in the > threaded spindle version) to allow the clamp to grab the spindle. In my > Merrill clamp, the threads are a bit recessed, and when use the 3/32" cork > mat (I may have erroneously reported 3/16 in a previous post ... damn > English system #%@), the clamp grabs only 2-3 threads (rotations). > > Steve, you are using a sorbo mat over your Oracle, aren't you? I'm > guessing > that it's at least 1/8" thick. Your spindle height obviously gives you no > problems? IIRC, your total spindle height is11/16" (1/16" shorter than my > 3/4" Merrill spindle) with the threaded and unthreaded portions being > approximately equal. I looked for your post on this yesterday and > couldn't > find it. > > Cheers, > Thom > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Igor Kuznetsoff [mailto:gorkuz@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:38 PM > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > Ken, > I think this technique may run into a bit of a > problem with Mother Nature's Physics Department. If > the platter is tipped, we would be spinning a fairly > sizeable mass off level, creating gyroscopic > resistance. This may pre-load the bearing stably, > *or* cause the platter to "hunt" for balance. You > know how a top starts to wobble as it spins down? I > suspect that hunting may be more likely, causing > teeter- tottering (there goes that tt-totty stuff > again). I have a feeeeling that I wouldn't like to > find out. > > I > > --- "Schei, Kenneth" wrote: > > This method of clamping results in an LP forming a > > shallow cone, with the > > vertex down. The slope of the cone disrupts the the > > azimuth and antiskating > > because the record surface is no longer level at the > > contact point of the > > stylus. Soooo, why not re-level the turntable > > platter so that the record > > surface *is* level at the stylus contact point? > > Assuming the conical > > surface on the platter is flat, the surface of the > > LP should also be fairly > > flat, e.g. not a spherical surface, from the edge to > > the inside of the > > playing area. In order to tilt the table we would > > have to readjust the tone > > arm support so that the tone arm remained level. > > The platter and bearing > > would be out of plumb 0.1" in 6", or 1.67%, which > > would be negligible or > > might even improve bearing performance by slightly > > preloading it. At first > > I thought this was a bizzare idea, but the more I > > think about it, the more I > > like it. Am I completely loco? > > > > Ken > > > > Ken Schei, P.E. > > Project Engineer > > Antarctic Support Associates > > Email address: scheike@asa.org > > Phone: 303-643-0163 > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Mackris, Thom G. > > [SMTP:tgmackris@vicorpinc.com] > > > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:47 AM > > > To: 'Jeremy Epstein'; Mackris, Thom G. > > > Cc: 'Schei, Kenneth'; Thom Mackris / Joan > > Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe > > > Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day > > (h); Chris Brady; Dave > > > Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); > > Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, > > > Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; > > Thomas Martin (h); > > > Thomas Martin(w) > > > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > > > > > The first method is used by Well Tempered, and > > perhaps other turntables as > > > well. The platter is machined so that it is > > slightly higher at the record > > > edge than at the label area. On Ron W's WTT, this > > height differential is > > > the thickness of one and a half quarters (approx. > > 0.1"). Ron and I agree > > > that this is too much, and Ron does not completely > > cinch down on his > > > records > > > with the screw down center clamp.......There are > > > obvious issues relating to the azimuth adjustment > > of the cartridge as well > > > as compensating for anti-skate (by having to dial > > in more of it) with this > > > technique. > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:07:19 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: Mackris, Thom G.; 'Jeremy Epstein' CC: 'Schei, Kenneth'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) Oy ! Just let a woman near paint ! (Just kidding, I had a girlfriend who was pretty darn good with a bucket of paint once, never mind what she actually did with it.) [see below] --- "Mackris, Thom G." wrote: > Jeremy, > > Feh! I hate when I spill paint !! > > I think we need Steve Z. or George Munger (whom > you'll meet at NY Noise on > 3/11, Jeremy) to address this issue for us. I'll > try to explain two > different clamping approaches which don't use any > form of periphery clamping > (i.e. Merrill's clamp and vacuum clamping). > > The first method is used by Well Tempered, and > perhaps other turntables as > well. The platter is machined so that it is > slightly higher at the record > edge than at the label area. On Ron W's WTT, this > height differential is > the thickness of one and a half quarters (approx. > 0.1"). Ron and I agree > that this is too much, and Ron does not completely > cinch down on his records > with the screw down center clamp. From the > perspctive of a commercial > manufacturer, I can see where they'd want to be able > to flatten every record > (or say, 98% of them). > > I experimented with this sloped platter method on my > Merrill, using a 3/32" > corrk mat (from the hobby store). I simulated about > 2/3 of the slope in > Ron's platter by cutting out a ring of hard foam > (1/2" wide) to shims up the > mat in the area of the record lead-in groove. This > flattens most records > fairly well, but not nearly as well as my Merrill > clamp does. There are > obvious issues relating to the azimuth adjustment of > the cartridge as well > as compensating for anti-skate (by having to dial in > more of it) with this technique. This would not be a simple matter of compensating the adjustments. When a record is flexed in this manner, it does not form a straight slope. It *flexes* in a *curve*. Now, I am fine with the juxtaposition of curves & cans of paint, but if a record surface forms a curve, the slope formed will not be constant. The azimuth and a-skating can then only be compensated for the *average*, and not precise difference. True, the a-skating is already an averaged setting as it varies with radius, but this will introduce another variable to that game. Azimuth is *not* averaged, and losses will occur if this linearity is compromised. Dems da geometrocious facts, folks. I > > The VPI & Oracle reflex clamps attempt to accomplish > the same thing only in > reverse. I the case of the VPI, a small, soft > washer is placed over the > record spindle before the record goes on the platter > (it just stays there) > and a convex, hard washer is used by the Oracle. > The center clamp is fairly > wide (almost the entire record label diameter. It > contacts the record only > at its circumference. When the clamp is screwed > down, it forces the record > to bow into a convex shape, apparently flattening > out most warps (out to the > lead in goove ??). Both clamps are tapered near > their edge so as not to > interfere with the cartridge body. My attempts to > simulate this clamping > method with my Merrill clamp were unsuccessful, > because my Merrill center > clamp is about 1/2" less in *radius* than the radius > of the record label > (i.e. 3" diameter vs. approx 4" diameter label). I > glued a ring of cork > under the clamp at its edge and used a small washer > made of cork to simulate > this clamping methog. I'm guessing that this > narrower clamp doesn't exert > enough leverage on the record to effect the > necessary bow. > > Grant reports that the clamp worked reasonably well > on the VPI he once > owned. An advantage to this technique over that of > the Well Tempered is > that you get some anti skating force for "free" > since the slope of the > record is away from the spindle rather than towards > it as in the WTT. > Azimuth adjustment for fixed azimuth tonearms is > still an issue, however. > > Thom > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeremy Epstein [mailto:jepstein@shwd.com] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:20 AM > Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > > > I've used a central clamp (the little "pod" type > that leeches onto the > spindle) and I can't see how a label-area clamp will > ever address the > type of warps that I find most vexing : the little > "ripples" in the > first track or two, which tend to really throw the > stylus around and > make it very tough to track. It's not really a > question of 90%, there is > a basic function of the perimeter clamp that is just > different. > > BTW, when I had to hang up on you Sunday, my wife > had indeed spilled an > entire gallon of paint on our bathroom floor. Oy vey > iz mir! > > -j > -- > ========================================= > Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com > ========================================= > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:07:59 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'Schei, Kenneth'; 'Igor Kuznetsoff'; Mackris, Thom G.; 'Jeremy Epstein' CC: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) Guyz ... I think I remember the conversation now (duh !). Weren't we talking platter levelling in our conversations about the side load on the bearing as it related to getting the pull of the belt either (a) perpindicular to the midpoint of the bearing shaft or (b) aligned with the top contact point of the bearing? Thom -----Original Message----- From: Schei, Kenneth [mailto:SCHEIKE@asa.org] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 1:07 PM Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp The gyroscopic resistance only occurs when the axis of a spinning mass is moving. Once the axis of spin is fixed motionless in any orientation, there is no longer any gyroscopic resistance. As an experiment you can hold a spinning bicycle wheel in any orientation; if you hold it steady you won't feel any resistance or instability until you try to move the axis of the wheel to another orientation. Ken > -----Original Message----- > From: Igor Kuznetsoff [SMTP:gorkuz@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:38 PM > To: Schei, Kenneth; 'Mackris, Thom G.'; 'Jeremy Epstein' > Cc: Schei, Kenneth; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe > Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave > Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, > Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); > Thomas Martin(w) > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > Ken, > I think this technique may run into a bit of a > problem with Mother Nature's Physics Department. If > the platter is tipped, we would be spinning a fairly > sizeable mass off level, creating gyroscopic > resistance. This may pre-load the bearing stably, > *or* cause the platter to "hunt" for balance. You > know how a top starts to wobble as it spins down? I > suspect that hunting may be more likely, causing > teeter- tottering (there goes that tt-totty stuff > again). I have a feeeeling that I wouldn't like to > find out. > > I > > --- "Schei, Kenneth" wrote: > > This method of clamping results in an LP forming a > > shallow cone, with the > > vertex down. The slope of the cone disrupts the the > > azimuth and antiskating > > because the record surface is no longer level at the > > contact point of the > > stylus. Soooo, why not re-level the turntable > > platter so that the record > > surface *is* level at the stylus contact point? > > Assuming the conical > > surface on the platter is flat, the surface of the > > LP should also be fairly > > flat, e.g. not a spherical surface, from the edge to > > the inside of the > > playing area. In order to tilt the table we would > > have to readjust the tone > > arm support so that the tone arm remained level. > > The platter and bearing > > would be out of plumb 0.1" in 6", or 1.67%, which > > would be negligible or > > might even improve bearing performance by slightly > > preloading it. At first > > I thought this was a bizzare idea, but the more I > > think about it, the more I > > like it. Am I completely loco? > > > > Ken > > > > Ken Schei, P.E. > > Project Engineer > > Antarctic Support Associates > > Email address: scheike@asa.org > > Phone: 303-643-0163 > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Mackris, Thom G. > > [SMTP:tgmackris@vicorpinc.com] > > > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:47 AM > > > To: 'Jeremy Epstein'; Mackris, Thom G. > > > Cc: 'Schei, Kenneth'; Thom Mackris / Joan > > Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe > > > Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day > > (h); Chris Brady; Dave > > > Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); > > Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, > > > Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; > > Thomas Martin (h); > > > Thomas Martin(w) > > > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > > > > > The first method is used by Well Tempered, and > > perhaps other turntables as > > > well. The platter is machined so that it is > > slightly higher at the record > > > edge than at the label area. On Ron W's WTT, this > > height differential is > > > the thickness of one and a half quarters (approx. > > 0.1"). Ron and I agree > > > that this is too much, and Ron does not completely > > cinch down on his > > > records > > > with the screw down center clamp.......There are > > > obvious issues relating to the azimuth adjustment > > of the cartridge as well > > > as compensating for anti-skate (by having to dial > > in more of it) with this > > > technique. > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:10:37 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'Igor Kuznetsoff'; Mackris, Thom G.; 'Jeremy Epstein' CC: 'Schei, Kenneth'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) Indeed, the part I'm unclear about is how all of these known errors will average out. It certainly does add another variable. Thom -----Original Message----- From: Igor Kuznetsoff [mailto:gorkuz@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:58 PM Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp [Igor's correct IMHO comments about how the record bends] ... This would not be a simple matter of compensating the adjustments. When a record is flexed in this manner, it does not form a straight slope. It *flexes* in a *curve*. Now, I am fine with the juxtaposition of curves & cans of paint, but if a record surface forms a curve, the slope formed will not be constant. The azimuth and a-skating can then only be compensated for the *average*, and not precise difference. True, the a-skating is already an averaged setting as it varies with radius, but this will introduce another variable to that game. Azimuth is *not* averaged, and losses will occur if this linearity is compromised. Dems da geometrocious facts, folks. I > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:15:35 -0700 From: Schei, Kenneth, Schei, Kenneth To: 'Igor Kuznetsoff'; Mackris, Thom G.; 'Jeremy Epstein' CC: Schei, Kenneth; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) Igor: Good points. The slope of the record would not be constant even if the slope of the platter was. We would probably end up with too many compromises for the technique to be an improvement. Thanks for your input. Ken > -----Original Message----- > From: Igor Kuznetsoff [SMTP:gorkuz@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:58 PM > To: Mackris, Thom G.; 'Jeremy Epstein' > Cc: 'Schei, Kenneth'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe > Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave > Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, > Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); > Thomas Martin(w) > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > > This would not be a simple matter of compensating the > adjustments. When a record is flexed in this manner, > it does not form a straight slope. It *flexes* in a > *curve*. Now, I am fine with the juxtaposition of > curves & cans of paint, but if a record surface forms > a curve, the slope formed will not be constant. The > azimuth and a-skating can then only be compensated for > the *average*, and not precise difference. True, the > a-skating is already an averaged setting as it varies > with radius, but this will introduce another variable > to that game. Azimuth is *not* averaged, and losses > will occur if this linearity is compromised. > Dems da geometrocious facts, folks. > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:17:09 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: Mackris, Thom G.; Jeremy Epstein; Schei, Kenneth CC: Mackris, Thom G.; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) Well, short of treating the surface of the platter with Black Hole dust to increase gravity at that juncture (we would then have to rename the TT the "Event Horizon"), this seems like the best way to deal with edge warps. This clamp would not have to be used on all records as a matter of convenience, but for those "Murphy Disks" Jeremy mentions, what else is more practical ? I do have some ideas about both construction details, and what to do with the aforementioned machining "waste", but just don't have the time just now to draw this out. Really shouldn't even be writing this just now. I --- "Mackris, Thom G." wrote: > Hi Igor, > > As I posted privately to Jeremy, I'm trying to > figure out how to do this for > less than what Merrill charges. Below is a copy of > my reply to Jeremy. It > seems relevant to the group. I am torn between the > demonstrated > effectiveness of Merrill's clamping method and the > extra step involved in > playing records (not to mention the expense of > achieving this clamping). > One thing fer shure, it certainly would alow or > records to make intimate > contact with that great platter we're building a > *definite* plus IMHO.... > vacuum clamping without the pump chatter. > > Cheers, > Thom > > [beginning of copied text ...] > > Jeremy, > > One thing I didn't make clear about the two "bend > the record" solutions > (VPI/Oracle, and the WTT) is that when I said that > they deal with 90-95% of > the warps (according to Grant's report), I meant > that the 5-10% of the > records are not *perfectly* flattened. The records > are still very playable > and won't launch your stylus. > > This is why I'm hopeful that one of these two > solutions will work > adequately. I fear, however that Merrill's clamp > will still raise the sonic > bar a bit. How much, remains to be seen, but we do > have one clamp lying > around so we'll know soon enough. > > My pricing concern has to do with the material we'll > be forced to end up > with. The ring will have to weigh a couple of > pounds. This puts us into > metal, doesn't it ?? Probably would cost about > $225. Here's an off the > wall idea (that I'd never do)... we hang little > sacks of lead shot off the > ring (perfectly balanced of course) :-)) > > Cheers, > Thom > > [end of copied text ...] > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Igor Kuznetsoff [mailto:gorkuz@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:26 PM > Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > > I agree, Jeremy. No matter how radical the other > solutions get, they would attempting to press the > warps down via a long, flexible "arm", and can never > be as effective as applying direct pressure. > Additionally, the other solutions discussed will > create > **non-linear** > collateral anti-skate & azimuth problems, or a > problem > with gyroscopic forces (see other posts). > > I > > --- Jeremy Epstein wrote: > > To me (and strictly IMHO) these methods make NO > > sense intuitively - they > > change the carfully-created alignment geometry, > and > > they will only work > > well with the 90-95 percent of records that are > > already flat or *very* > > gently warped. So what? My <20 dollar "Pod" works > > fine on these records > > too. As I understand it, the Merrill periphery > > system will grunt the > > "trouble" records into line, almost no matter how > > bad they are. These > > are the records I want to work with - I do not > > anticipate using such a > > hard-core clamping method on every record (either > > the dished cone, > > convex cone, or periphery methods) I just want a > > "fixit" for badly > > warped records. As I mentioned before, Murphy's > law > > states that only > > irreplaceable records with super songs on the > first > > track exhibit such > > terrible dipsy-doodle warps. (Examples from my own > > collection : the > > Rolling Stones' unsurpassed bootleg rockabilly > > number "Claudine," Bruce > > Springsteen's hot, funny version of "Viva Las > Vegas" > > from a rare NME > > Elvis-tribute album, just to name two.) I just > want > > to be able to listen > > to these without throwing the cartridge out of the > > groove (at least > > once, to get a clean cassette dub) and the > periphery > > clamp is the > > answer, at least as it appears to me. > > > > If I have to DIY a one-off version, I guess that's > > OK, but I kinda feel > > like I have all these geniuses locked in a room > with > > me so I had oughta > > put them to work! > > > > -j > > > > > > -- > > ========================================= > > Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com > > ========================================= > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:19:47 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'Schei, Kenneth'; 'Igor Kuznetsoff'; Mackris, Thom G.; 'Jeremy Epstein' CC: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) All, Even though the errors do exist, as Igor and Ken have pointed out, there's always the possibility of them adding up in our favor (better lucky than smart :>)}. I suppose a cork mat "mockup" like what I made would be educational (and cheap). Of course, the baseline of comparison would have to be a flat cork mat in order to remove one variable (record contact surface) from the comparison. Thom -----Original Message----- From: Schei, Kenneth [mailto:SCHEIKE@asa.org] Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Igor: Good points. The slope of the record would not be constant even if the slope of the platter was. We would probably end up with too many compromises for the technique to be an improvement. Thanks for your input. Ken > -----Original Message----- > From: Igor Kuznetsoff [SMTP:gorkuz@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:58 PM > To: Mackris, Thom G.; 'Jeremy Epstein' > Cc: 'Schei, Kenneth'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe > Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave > Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, > Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); > Thomas Martin(w) > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > > This would not be a simple matter of compensating the > adjustments. When a record is flexed in this manner, > it does not form a straight slope. It *flexes* in a > *curve*. Now, I am fine with the juxtaposition of > curves & cans of paint, but if a record surface forms > a curve, the slope formed will not be constant. The > azimuth and a-skating can then only be compensated for > the *average*, and not precise difference. True, the > a-skating is already an averaged setting as it varies > with radius, but this will introduce another variable > to that game. Azimuth is *not* averaged, and losses > will occur if this linearity is compromised. > Dems da geometrocious facts, folks. > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:23:56 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'Igor Kuznetsoff'; Mackris, Thom G.; Jeremy Epstein; Schei, Kenneth CC: Mackris, Thom G.; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) Thanks for you input. We'll deal with this problem in the coming months, Igor. I don't think we have to have Bryce do anything in conjunction with the bearing/plater job. I'm guessing we'll be machining up a spare bearing/platter set anyway (for maybe one late comer), or alternatively, we could "volunteer" Alex (Beaverton, OR) to drive his platter to Bryce's for a test fit when we're ready. Thom -----Original Message----- From: Igor Kuznetsoff [mailto:gorkuz@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 1:11 PM Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Well, short of treating the surface of the platter with Black Hole dust to increase gravity at that juncture (we would then have to rename the TT the "Event Horizon"), this seems like the best way to deal with edge warps. This clamp would not have to be used on all records as a matter of convenience, but for those "Murphy Disks" Jeremy mentions, what else is more practical ? I do have some ideas about both construction details, and what to do with the aforementioned machining "waste", but just don't have the time just now to draw this out. Really shouldn't even be writing this just now. I Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:28:42 -0700 From: Jeremy Epstein, Jeremy Epstein To: Schei, Kenneth; 'Mackris, Thom G.'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) I just had an idea. Suppose the top 1/4- 3/8" of the platter had coarse threads cut in its edge. Then suppose we had an acrylic ring made that would thread down onto this, with an internal lip. This would NOT have to be heavy, and the threading would provide EXCELLENT down-thrust. Also it could be somewhat narrow, and so stay out of the belt-driven area, too. I've been puzzling at this for a long time; this is the first thing I've thought of that actually seems like it would be well worth trying. You preserve your careful match between the acrylic and vinyl, you avoid wearing at the edge of your disc with a metal part - you keep metal away from the stylus too! - etc. Cons - another expensive CNC job, also I can't see where you could guarantee that you would take equal amounts of material all the way around, so you'd have to rebalance the solid platter somehow after cutting the threads. Maybe a set-screw attachment? (Igor suggests, maybe a bayonet mount? Also he thinks it would have to be metal, not acrylic, as the sharp inner edge would not stand up to use.) How many folks would be interested in an accessory like this anyway, assuming Bryce could make it? Am I on my own here, or is this something we could get six takers for? -j -- ========================================= Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com ========================================= Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:35:08 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'Jeremy Epstein'; Schei, Kenneth; Mackris, Thom G.; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) I'm certainly interested in pursuing the periphery clamp, and the first easy step for me would be to try my "beat up" one on the table. I'm open to the collective genius in this group, although, I suspect that Merrill's clamp may turn out to be a "bargain" in quantities of 6. The lip will definitely have to be thin for cartridge body clearance, and metal is indeed the answer here. Remember that you're only grabbing the outer third to half of the lead-in groove. Record damage is IMHO inconsequential (I'm pretty neuroitic about this ... vacuum record cleaner, rice paper sleeves, etc.). Cheers, Thom -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Epstein [mailto:jepstein@shwd.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 1:27 PM Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp I just had an idea. Suppose the top 1/4- 3/8" of the platter had coarse threads cut in its edge. Then suppose we had an acrylic ring made that would thread down onto this, with an internal lip. This would NOT have to be heavy, and the threading would provide EXCELLENT down-thrust. Also it could be somewhat narrow, and so stay out of the belt-driven area, too. I've been puzzling at this for a long time; this is the first thing I've thought of that actually seems like it would be well worth trying. You preserve your careful match between the acrylic and vinyl, you avoid wearing at the edge of your disc with a metal part - you keep metal away from the stylus too! - etc. Cons - another expensive CNC job, also I can't see where you could guarantee that you would take equal amounts of material all the way around, so you'd have to rebalance the solid platter somehow after cutting the threads. Maybe a set-screw attachment? (Igor suggests, maybe a bayonet mount? Also he thinks it would have to be metal, not acrylic, as the sharp inner edge would not stand up to use.) How many folks would be interested in an accessory like this anyway, assuming Bryce could make it? Am I on my own here, or is this something we could get six takers for? -j -- ========================================= Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com ========================================= Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:39:15 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: Mackris, Thom G.; Schei, Kenneth; 'Jeremy Epstein' CC: Schei, Kenneth; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) --- "Mackris, Thom G." wrote: > Igor, Ken > > Indeed, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there > are some good reasons why > people strive to get their 'tables perfectly level. > It seems as if this > topic was discussed somewhere in the bearing & > platter design ... but maybe > that was a past life, or an offline conversation. I thought that was what I said- level is lovely. If we start tipping our turntables, we could get some vibrato for free, and every singer could sound like Brian Ferry. > BTW, the reason I'm a bit slow about getting the > final spindle height > dimensions back to Chris, is because I'm toying with > the idea of how much > mat thickness to allow for, while still exposing > enough thread (in the > threaded spindle version) to allow the clamp to grab > the spindle. In my > Merrill clamp, the threads are a bit recessed, and > when use the 3/32" cork > mat (I may have erroneously reported 3/16 in a > previous post ... damn > English system #%@), the clamp grabs only 2-3 > threads (rotations). > > Steve, you are using a sorbo mat over your Oracle, > aren't you? I'm guessing > that it's at least 1/8" thick. Your spindle height > obviously gives you no > problems? IIRC, your total spindle height is11/16" > (1/16" shorter than my > 3/4" Merrill spindle) with the threaded and > unthreaded portions being > approximately equal. I looked for your post on this > yesterday and couldn't > find it. > > Cheers, > Thom How about making the threaded hole in the spindle extra deep, with a small unthreaded area just below the top surface, allowing adjustment to individual needs, and putting whatever size shim (or whatever) is needed in there as a custom stop? The spindle tip insert could be made a bit longer to allow this. *This is off the cuff, I have no time to think this out for practicality at the moment.* > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Igor Kuznetsoff [mailto:gorkuz@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:38 PM > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > Ken, > I think this technique may run into a bit of a > problem with Mother Nature's Physics Department. If > the platter is tipped, we would be spinning a fairly > sizeable mass off level, creating gyroscopic > resistance. This may pre-load the bearing stably, > *or* cause the platter to "hunt" for balance. You > know how a top starts to wobble as it spins down? I > suspect that hunting may be more likely, causing > teeter- tottering (there goes that tt-totty stuff > again). I have a feeeeling that I wouldn't like to > find out. > > I > > --- "Schei, Kenneth" wrote: > > This method of clamping results in an LP forming a > > shallow cone, with the > > vertex down. The slope of the cone disrupts the > the > > azimuth and antiskating > > because the record surface is no longer level at > the > > contact point of the > > stylus. Soooo, why not re-level the turntable > > platter so that the record > > surface *is* level at the stylus contact point? > > Assuming the conical > > surface on the platter is flat, the surface of the > > LP should also be fairly > > flat, e.g. not a spherical surface, from the edge > to > > the inside of the > > playing area. In order to tilt the table we would > > have to readjust the tone > > arm support so that the tone arm remained level. > > The platter and bearing > > would be out of plumb 0.1" in 6", or 1.67%, which > > would be negligible or > > might even improve bearing performance by slightly > > preloading it. At first > > I thought this was a bizzare idea, but the more I > > think about it, the more I > > like it. Am I completely loco? > > > > Ken > > > > Ken Schei, P.E. > > Project Engineer > > Antarctic Support Associates > > Email address: scheike@asa.org > > Phone: 303-643-0163 > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Mackris, Thom G. > > [SMTP:tgmackris@vicorpinc.com] > > > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:47 AM > > > To: 'Jeremy Epstein'; Mackris, Thom G. > > > Cc: 'Schei, Kenneth'; Thom Mackris / Joan > > Panzella; Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe > > > Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day > > (h); Chris Brady; Dave > > > Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman > (h); > > Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, > > > Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry > Gesualdo; > > Thomas Martin (h); > > > Thomas Martin(w) > > > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > > > > > The first method is used by Well Tempered, and > > perhaps other turntables as > > > well. The platter is machined so that it is > > slightly higher at the record > > > edge than at the label area. On Ron W's WTT, > this > > height differential is > > > the thickness of one and a half quarters > (approx. > > 0.1"). Ron and I agree > > > that this is too much, and Ron does not > completely > > cinch down on his > > > records > > > with the screw down center clamp.......There are > > > > obvious issues relating to the azimuth > adjustment > > of the cartridge as well > > > as compensating for anti-skate (by having to > dial > > in more of it) with this > > > technique. > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:39:50 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: Beck, Chris; Boehler, Brian; Brady, Chris; Collier (w), Dave; Day (h), Brian; Druley, Joe; Epstein (w), Jeremy; Gassman (h), Grant; Gesualdo, Terry; Kuznetsoff, Igor; Mackris (h), Thom; Martin (w), Thomas; Martin(h), Thomas; Mitaru, Alex; Mollard, William; Munger (w), George; Schei (h), Ken; Schei (w), Ken; Welborne, Ron; Zettell, Steve George is correct that good arms (and their bearings) track warps amazingly well. George also forgets that this is indeed a sick group of individuals :>))) Seriously, as I had previously mentioned, I'm confident that the Oracle and VPI clamping schemes will be just fine with respect to permitting any decent arm to track *every* record in all of our collections (correct me if you think I'm wrong, gang). What I'm wondering about the whole "intimate contact with the platter" side of the equation and what the Merrill periphery clamp does for overall sonics... I fear that it's quite a bit. See you at NY Noise, George ... Cheers, Thom -----Original Message----- From: George Munger [mailto:GMunger@mnr.org] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 1:30 PM To: tgmackris@vicorpinc.com Subject: Re: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Maybe, if the number of edge-warped discs in our audience is low, the replacment of the vinyl and/or using a better tracking cartidge and/or arm set-up may be, for the overall, more cost effective? >>> "Mackris, Thom G." 01/31 3:16 PM >>> Thanks for you input. We'll deal with this problem in the coming months, Igor. I don't think we have to have Bryce do anything in conjunction with the bearing/plater job. I'm guessing we'll be machining up a spare bearing/platter set anyway (for maybe one late comer), or alternatively, we could "volunteer" Alex (Beaverton, OR) to drive his platter to Bryce's for a test fit when we're ready. Thom -----Original Message----- From: Igor Kuznetsoff [mailto:gorkuz@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 1:11 PM Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Well, short of treating the surface of the platter with Black Hole dust to increase gravity at that juncture (we would then have to rename the TT the "Event Horizon"), this seems like the best way to deal with edge warps. This clamp would not have to be used on all records as a matter of convenience, but for those "Murphy Disks" Jeremy mentions, what else is more practical ? I do have some ideas about both construction details, and what to do with the aforementioned machining "waste", but just don't have the time just now to draw this out. Really shouldn't even be writing this just now. I Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:46:47 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'Igor Kuznetsoff'; Mackris, Thom G.; Schei, Kenneth; 'Jeremy Epstein' CC: Schei, Kenneth; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) Outstanding and simple Igor! We're only talking about 1/16 to 1/8" variance here. If I can't get the spindle numbers to jive allowing for mat variances, I'll work with Chris on your idea. Because Steve's Oracle works fine, I suspect that I'm just being overcautious here. Nevertheless, I will certainly attempt the most flexibility that we can achieve ... for the good of all. Cheers, Thom -----Original Message----- From: Igor Kuznetsoff [mailto:gorkuz@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 1:37 PM Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp [Igor commented with respect to varying spindle length requirements} How about making the threaded hole in the spindle extra deep, with a small unthreaded area just below the top surface, allowing adjustment to individual needs, and putting whatever size shim (or whatever) is needed in there as a custom stop? The spindle tip insert could be made a bit longer to allow this. *This is off the cuff, I have no time to think this out for practicality at the moment.* Subject: Re: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:48:37 -0700 From: George Munger, George Munger To: BBoehler@aol.com; GRANTG10@aol.com; thomas_r_martin@apl.com; dcollier@arocorp.com; SCHEIKE@asa.org; kenschei@compuserve.com; wmollard@dowco.com; tmackris@earthlink.net; tmartin033@earthlink.net; tadgesualdo@hotmail.com; wlabs@ix.netcom.com; zettel@libby.org; evergreengc@msn.com; alexmi@omneon.com; cbrady@sgi.com; jepstein@shwd.com; briday@uswest.net; tgmackris@vicorpinc.com; gorkuz@yahoo.com I am most interested in the label-area clamp, but would welcome both if the cost of is kept 'reasonable'. To be able to use either label or perephery style, whichever is best for the moment, would seem to be 'taking care of business'. GM >>> "Mackris, Thom G." 01/31 3:27 PM >>> I'm certainly interested in pursuing the periphery clamp, and the first easy step for me would be to try my "beat up" one on the table. I'm open to the collective genius in this group, although, I suspect that Merrill's clamp may turn out to be a "bargain" in quantities of 6. The lip will definitely have to be thin for cartridge body clearance, and metal is indeed the answer here. Remember that you're only grabbing the outer third to half of the lead-in groove. Record damage is IMHO inconsequential (I'm pretty neuroitic about this ... vacuum record cleaner, rice paper sleeves, etc.). Cheers, Thom -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Epstein [mailto:jepstein@shwd.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 1:27 PM Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp I just had an idea. Suppose the top 1/4- 3/8" of the platter had coarse threads cut in its edge. Then suppose we had an acrylic ring made that would thread down onto this, with an internal lip. This would NOT have to be heavy, and the threading would provide EXCELLENT down-thrust. Also it could be somewhat narrow, and so stay out of the belt-driven area, too. I've been puzzling at this for a long time; this is the first thing I've thought of that actually seems like it would be well worth trying. You preserve your careful match between the acrylic and vinyl, you avoid wearing at the edge of your disc with a metal part - you keep metal away from the stylus too! - etc. Cons - another expensive CNC job, also I can't see where you could guarantee that you would take equal amounts of material all the way around, so you'd have to rebalance the solid platter somehow after cutting the threads. Maybe a set-screw attachment? (Igor suggests, maybe a bayonet mount? Also he thinks it would have to be metal, not acrylic, as the sharp inner edge would not stand up to use.) How many folks would be interested in an accessory like this anyway, assuming Bryce could make it? Am I on my own here, or is this something we could get six takers for? -j -- ========================================= Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com ========================================= Subject: RE: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:50:07 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'George Munger'; BBoehler@aol.com; GRANTG10@aol.com; thomas_r_martin@apl.com; dcollier@arocorp.com; SCHEIKE@asa.org; kenschei@compuserve.com; wmollard@dowco.com; tmackris@earthlink.net; tmartin033@earthlink.net; tadgesualdo@hotmail.com; wlabs@ix.netcom.com; zettel@libby.org; evergreengc@msn.com; alexmi@omneon.com; cbrady@sgi.com; jepstein@shwd.com; briday@uswest.net; Mackris, Thom G.; gorkuz@yahoo.com I totally agree! Complete flexibility! -----Original Message----- From: George Munger [mailto:GMunger@mnr.org] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 1:45 PM Subject: Re: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp I am most interested in the label-area clamp, but would welcome both if the cost of is kept 'reasonable'. To be able to use either label or perephery style, whichever is best for the moment, would seem to be 'taking care of business'. GM >>> "Mackris, Thom G." 01/31 3:27 PM >>> I'm certainly interested in pursuing the periphery clamp, and the first easy step for me would be to try my "beat up" one on the table. I'm open to the collective genius in this group, although, I suspect that Merrill's clamp may turn out to be a "bargain" in quantities of 6. The lip will definitely have to be thin for cartridge body clearance, and metal is indeed the answer here. Remember that you're only grabbing the outer third to half of the lead-in groove. Record damage is IMHO inconsequential (I'm pretty neuroitic about this ... vacuum record cleaner, rice paper sleeves, etc.). Cheers, Thom -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Epstein [mailto:jepstein@shwd.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 1:27 PM Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp I just had an idea. Suppose the top 1/4- 3/8" of the platter had coarse threads cut in its edge. Then suppose we had an acrylic ring made that would thread down onto this, with an internal lip. This would NOT have to be heavy, and the threading would provide EXCELLENT down-thrust. Also it could be somewhat narrow, and so stay out of the belt-driven area, too. I've been puzzling at this for a long time; this is the first thing I've thought of that actually seems like it would be well worth trying. You preserve your careful match between the acrylic and vinyl, you avoid wearing at the edge of your disc with a metal part - you keep metal away from the stylus too! - etc. Cons - another expensive CNC job, also I can't see where you could guarantee that you would take equal amounts of material all the way around, so you'd have to rebalance the solid platter somehow after cutting the threads. Maybe a set-screw attachment? (Igor suggests, maybe a bayonet mount? Also he thinks it would have to be metal, not acrylic, as the sharp inner edge would not stand up to use.) How many folks would be interested in an accessory like this anyway, assuming Bryce could make it? Am I on my own here, or is this something we could get six takers for? -j -- ========================================= Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com ========================================= Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:52:42 -0700 From: Alex Mitaru, Alex Mitaru To: Mackris, Thom G.; 'Igor Kuznetsoff'; Mackris, Thom G.; Jeremy Epstein; Schei, Kenneth CC: Mackris, Thom G.; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) At 01:16 PM 1/31/00 -0700, Mackris, Thom G. wrote: >Thanks for you input. We'll deal with this problem in the coming months, >Igor. > >I don't think we have to have Bryce do anything in conjunction with the >bearing/plater job. I'm guessing we'll be machining up a spare >bearing/platter set anyway (for maybe one late comer), or alternatively, we >could "volunteer" Alex (Beaverton, OR) to drive his platter to Bryce's for a >test fit when we're ready. > >Thom I'd love to do just that, I wanted to do something with my 1.5" platter... thanks, alex Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:52:58 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: Mackris, Thom G.; 'Schei, Kenneth'; 'Jeremy Epstein'; Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella CC: Igor Kuznetsoff; Joe Druley; Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Brian Day (h); Chris Brady; Dave Collier (w); George Munger (w); Grant Gassman (h); Ken Schei (h); Mitaru, Alex; Ron Welborne; Steve Zettel; Terry Gesualdo; Mackris, Thom G.; Thomas Martin (h); Thomas Martin(w) --- "Mackris, Thom G." wrote: > All, > > Even though the lip of my Merrill clamp has some > miner warps, I can > certainly pass it around for your experimentation & > pleasure. Our platter > diameter will accomodate it. > > I am however, still hopeful that something like the > Oracle or VPI reflex > clamp will get us 90% of the way there with a whole > lot less hassle. It's > good to have flexibility and options, however. > > Thom > > -----Original Message----- > From: Schei, Kenneth [mailto:SCHEIKE@asa.org] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 8:54 AM > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > > I'd also be interested in such a clamp. I'd like to > see the clamp project > above the surface of the LP as little as possible. I agree, this would not be desirable for both this, and another reason as well: anything that goes up above the surface of the platter will reduce the stability of the platters balance, which is presently quite good, with the majority of the mass hanging down from the spindle shoulder. I > My tone arm lift raises > the cartridge enough to offer fail-safe protection > to LPs and the stylus > from damage do to my clumbsiness. It would not > offer that protection to the > stylus if the clamp projected much higher. A new > stylus for a Grado > Platinum is $200 - almost the price of a Teres > platter and bearing! > > Ken > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:20:13 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: George Munger; BBoehler@aol.com; GRANTG10@aol.com; thomas_r_martin@apl.com; dcollier@arocorp.com; SCHEIKE@asa.org; kenschei@compuserve.com; wmollard@dowco.com; tmackris@earthlink.net; tmartin033@earthlink.net; tadgesualdo@hotmail.com; wlabs@ix.netcom.com; zettel@libby.org; evergreengc@msn.com; alexmi@omneon.com; cbrady@sgi.com; jepstein@shwd.com; briday@uswest.net; tgmackris@vicorpinc.com --- George Munger wrote: > I am most interested in the label-area clamp, but > would welcome both if the cost of is kept > 'reasonable'. To be able to use either label or > perephery style, whichever is best for the moment, > would seem to be 'taking care of business'. GM Yes > >>> "Mackris, Thom G." > 01/31 3:27 PM >>> > I'm certainly interested in pursuing the periphery > clamp, and the first easy > step for me would be to try my "beat up" one on the > table. I'm open to the > collective genius in this group, although, I suspect > that Merrill's clamp > may turn out to be a "bargain" in quantities of 6. > > The lip will definitely have to be thin for > cartridge body clearance, and > metal is indeed the answer here. Remember that > you're only grabbing the > outer third to half of the lead-in groove. Record > damage is IMHO > inconsequential (I'm pretty neuroitic about this ... > vacuum record cleaner, > rice paper sleeves, etc.). > > Cheers, > Thom > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeremy Epstein [mailto:jepstein@shwd.com] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 1:27 PM > Subject: Re: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > > I just had an idea. > > Suppose the top 1/4- 3/8" of the platter had coarse > threads cut in its > edge. Then suppose we had an acrylic ring made that > would thread down > onto this, with an internal lip. This would NOT have > to be heavy, and > the threading would provide EXCELLENT down-thrust. > Also it could be > somewhat narrow, and so stay out of the belt-driven > area, too. > > I've been puzzling at this for a long > time; this is the first thing I've thought of that > actually seems like > it would be well worth trying. You preserve your > careful match between > the acrylic and vinyl, you avoid wearing at the edge > of your disc with a > metal part - you keep metal away from the stylus > too! - etc. Cons - > another > expensive CNC job, also I can't see where you could > guarantee that you > would take equal amounts of material all the way > around, so you'd have > to rebalance the solid platter somehow after cutting > the threads. > > Maybe a set-screw attachment? (Igor suggests, maybe > a bayonet mount? > Also he thinks it would have to be metal, not > acrylic, as the sharp > inner edge would not stand up to use.) > > How many folks would be interested in an accessory > like this anyway, > assuming Bryce could make it? Am I on my own here, > or is this something > we could get six takers for? > > -j > -- > ========================================= > Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com > ========================================= > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:42:22 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: Mackris, Thom G.; Beck, Chris; Boehler, Brian; Brady, Chris; Collier (w), Dave; Day (h), Brian; Druley, Joe; Epstein (w), Jeremy; Gassman (h), Grant; Gesualdo, Terry; Mackris (h), Thom; Martin (w), Thomas; Martin(h), Thomas; Mitaru, Alex; Mollard, William; Munger (w), George; Schei (h), Ken; Schei (w), Ken; Welborne, Ron; Zettell, Steve Well, and then, as a DJ friend of mine suggested the other day, "just put a nickel on the headshell, a quarter for the really bad ones" :-))) (smiley w/triple chins & pinched nose) --- "Mackris, Thom G." wrote: > George is correct that good arms (and their > bearings) track warps amazingly > well. George also forgets that this is indeed a > sick group of individuals > :>))) > > Seriously, as I had previously mentioned, I'm > confident that the Oracle and > VPI clamping schemes will be just fine with respect > to permitting any decent > arm to track *every* record in all of our > collections (correct me if you > think I'm wrong, gang). > > What I'm wondering about the whole "intimate contact > with the platter" side > of the equation and what the Merrill periphery clamp > does for overall > sonics... I fear that it's quite a bit. > > See you at NY Noise, George ... > > Cheers, > Thom > > -----Original Message----- > From: George Munger [mailto:GMunger@mnr.org] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 1:30 PM > To: tgmackris@vicorpinc.com > Subject: Re: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > > Maybe, if the number of edge-warped discs in our > audience is low, the > replacment of the vinyl and/or using a better > tracking cartidge and/or arm > set-up may be, for the overall, more cost effective? A Shure V15 on a second, high mass, arm ? :>) > >>> "Mackris, Thom G." > 01/31 3:16 PM >>> > Thanks for you input. We'll deal with this problem > in the coming months, > Igor. > > I don't think we have to have Bryce do anything in > conjunction with the > bearing/plater job. I'm guessing we'll be machining > up a spare > bearing/platter set anyway (for maybe one late > comer), or alternatively, we > could "volunteer" Alex (Beaverton, OR) to drive his > platter to Bryce's for a > test fit when we're ready. > > Thom > > -----Original Message----- > From: Igor Kuznetsoff [mailto:gorkuz@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 1:11 PM > Subject: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp > > > Well, short of treating the surface of the platter > with > Black Hole dust to increase gravity at that juncture > (we would then have to rename the TT the "Event > Horizon"), this seems like the best way to deal with > edge warps. This clamp would not have to be used > on > all records as a matter of convenience, but for > those > "Murphy Disks" Jeremy mentions, what else is more > practical ? I do have some ideas about both > construction details, and what to do with the > aforementioned machining "waste", but just don't > have > the time just now to draw this out. Really > shouldn't > even be writing this just now. > I > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:46:41 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'Igor Kuznetsoff'; Mackris, Thom G.; Beck, Chris; Boehler, Brian; Brady, Chris; Collier (w), Dave; Day (h), Brian; Druley, Joe; Epstein (w), Jeremy; Gassman (h), Grant; Gesualdo, Terry; Mackris (h), Thom; Martin (w), Thomas; Martin(h), Thomas; Mitaru, Alex; Mollard, William; Munger (w), George; Schei (h), Ken; Schei (w), Ken; Welborne, Ron; Zettell, Steve There was a strange guy on r.a.t. (rec.audio.tubes) a couple of years ago. Apparently he had some sort of audio busines, buying & selling used gear. He'd say something controverial, really annoying everyone. Eventually, someone would take the bait and flame him. He'd always respond with "thanks for the free add :-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) " With Winter weight and a double belly (if not chin) .. Thom :-))))) -----Original Message----- From: Igor Kuznetsoff [mailto:gorkuz@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 5:41 PM Subject: RE: RE: Merrill Periphery Clamp Well, and then, as a DJ friend of mine suggested the other day, "just put a nickel on the headshell, a quarter for the really bad ones" :-))) (smiley w/triple chins & pinched nose)