Subject: Re: [teres] isodamp; lossy approach is the best? Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 19:36:35 -0700 From: Nicholas McKinney, Nicholas McKinney To: teres@aiko.com At 02:36 AM 3/16/00 -0800, you wrote: > My >viewpoint is that the best materials should be rigid >*and* lossy, not rigid vs. lossy, and certainly *not* >flexible/deformable. I believe that "lowly" MDF is >indeed an *excellent* material for the purpose, >especially if augmented with something like a wrap of >even more rigid/ internally well damped carbon >fiber/epoxy, using MDF/lead/MDF or MDF/Isodamp/MDF >as an actively desirable, inexpensive, practically >workable spacer core. This is far better than using a >highly transmissive material, like metal, to form a >"perfect loop" between the arm and platter, damped or >not. Hi Igor, some of the "deadest" cabinets I have ever built used MDF with sheet lead like that used for roofing, and a layer of special PVA damper in between (and covering the lead to air seal it) This PVA dampner is from Moyen in Chicago that is used alot in speakers for accordion cloth dressing. We use it by the 5 gallon pail here, and I have used it most everywhere. The cost isn't that bad either (read not un-obtainium) What about using 2 pieces of MDF with a layer of lead sandwiched, and thick layers of this stuff holding it all together? That would be quite cost effective too. Nick Subject: [teres] Turntable base talkings Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 19:36:38 -0700 From: Nicholas McKinney, Nicholas McKinney To: teres@aiko.com Hi Folks, I was chit-chatting with Jeremy Epstien and decided to just send here the on-topic parts of the email rather than bore you all with my big mouth............... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> I don't really have a time table for this turntable base and no one else is >> interested it seems. I plan to try the dual flat bases with inner tube, >but I >> might also make another one like the turntable that was at the show (ya know, >> art statement) >> >> Let me know what you want to do. I think simple and sweet like the one at that website (forgot the name already) Really to be honest my time is horrible at the moment for any design work. If someone wanted to do the drawings for what we need, I can get a sample piece cut out of MDF and sent to whichever "guru" to tweek for the final piece. Something I learned with my company, plan many prototypes cause there is always something you forgot, or something you figure out a better way of doing. >I would probably be interested in piggybacking on whatever you decide - >I think my aesthetic preference would be for a rectilinear style but I >could be persuaded otherwise, the arguments for a skeleton base make >good sense to me. In any case, having you guys do all the prototyping >and just forking over some cash at the end has a certain appeal! Yeah I can sweet talk Steve into prototyping a couple for free pretty much as long as a few were heading out his door. He also takes credit cards so it makes it easy to pay as well (I am out of this loop other than sweet talking) >And if >we started with rectilinear, I could always break out my PorterCable >6090 and do a little MC (maniacally controlled) machining to get down to >a skeleton if necessary afterwards. > >;-) Oooooh boy ;-) Something like this simple base might take a few hundred lines of machine code ;-) I think we peaked at 5000 for one of my wilder speaker baffles........... >I like the look of black Corian, but a deep solid color (flag blue, >forest green, ruby red) would actually be much nicer in my book, and >maybe those cutouts would be easier to stumble across? I'm not a big fan >of flecked "faux granite"-type finishes. White is easy, anything else is pure luck. Also too, MDF can be machined twice as fast (maybe more) than Corian so the MDF units will be -much- cheaper. cya Nick Subject: Re: [teres] Turntable base talkings Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:53:35 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com Indeed, I can see several subchassis iterations especially for folks like Steve Zettel and myself who are sitting on a fence between the two camps who have been "discussing" the alternatives recently. For those of us who choose to not go the CNC router route, the idea of a simple design is quite appealing as it's easily reproducable. Of course with a template, a complex shape is easily reproducable too. There's always the option of casting which will certainly simplify the production of more complex shapes on a more than "one off" basis. I made a comment early on about shape which has nothing directly to do with sonics. I am nervous with a design that has my cantilever hanging over 4"-5" of air space the way the open chassis "art statement" designs do. The cantilever looks too vulnerable to breakage IMHO. For this reason alone, I plan to incorporate an armboard "block" which extends to under the headshell. An alternative to a big block to protect the cantilever is the "4 poster" design on Chris' website. I encouraged the design to position the front post so that it would protect the cantilever when the arm is in the rest. As I write this, I'm convincing myself of implementing this design. This bears out the truth of the first sentence in this post . Another thing to consider is how you handle your tonearm. I am in the habit of cueing my records manually. I've noticed that I rest my little finger on the plinth of my Merril to steady my hand as I'm lowering the arm. Depending on the shape I arrive at for the tonearm block, I'd be able to use it for this function. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Nicholas McKinney To: Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 6:34 PM Subject: [teres] Turntable base talkings Hi Folks, I was chit-chatting with Jeremy Epstien and decided to just send here the on-topic parts of the email rather than bore you all with my big mouth............... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> I don't really have a time table for this turntable base and no one else is >> interested it seems. I plan to try the dual flat bases with inner tube, >but I >> might also make another one like the turntable that was at the show (ya know, >> art statement) >> >> Let me know what you want to do. I think simple and sweet like the one at that website (forgot the name already) Really to be honest my time is horrible at the moment for any design work. If someone wanted to do the drawings for what we need, I can get a sample piece cut out of MDF and sent to whichever "guru" to tweek for the final piece. Something I learned with my company, plan many prototypes cause there is always something you forgot, or something you figure out a better way of doing. >I would probably be interested in piggybacking on whatever you decide - >I think my aesthetic preference would be for a rectilinear style but I >could be persuaded otherwise, the arguments for a skeleton base make >good sense to me. In any case, having you guys do all the prototyping >and just forking over some cash at the end has a certain appeal! Yeah I can sweet talk Steve into prototyping a couple for free pretty much as long as a few were heading out his door. He also takes credit cards so it makes it easy to pay as well (I am out of this loop other than sweet talking) >And if >we started with rectilinear, I could always break out my PorterCable >6090 and do a little MC (maniacally controlled) machining to get down to >a skeleton if necessary afterwards. > >;-) Oooooh boy ;-) Something like this simple base might take a few hundred lines of machine code ;-) I think we peaked at 5000 for one of my wilder speaker baffles........... >I like the look of black Corian, but a deep solid color (flag blue, >forest green, ruby red) would actually be much nicer in my book, and >maybe those cutouts would be easier to stumble across? I'm not a big fan >of flecked "faux granite"-type finishes. White is easy, anything else is pure luck. Also too, MDF can be machined twice as fast (maybe more) than Corian so the MDF units will be -much- cheaper. cya Nick Subject: Teres Base drawing Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 16:23:40 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: tmackris@earthlink.net Thom, I played with a new idea for a Teres base last night after you left. Take a look at the attached drawing and then give me a call when it is convenient. The drawing probably won't make much sense without some, er, well a lot of explanation. Chris --------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: base.gif base.gif Type: GIF Image (image/gif) Encoding: base64 Subject: Re: [teres] isodamp; lossy approach is the best? Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 04:54:06 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Nick, MDF/lead/MDF bonded with Swedac/called "DG-5 by Soundown, which appears to be a variant of PVA, is a construction I have suggested repeatedly for several months running. It tends to come under attack from those that like to hear their chassis' at work. What does the Moyen product cost? the Swedac is overpriced. Igor --- Nicholas McKinney wrote: > At 02:36 AM 3/16/00 -0800, you wrote: > > My > >viewpoint is that the best materials should be > rigid > >*and* lossy, not rigid vs. lossy, and certainly > *not* > >flexible/deformable. I believe that "lowly" MDF is > >indeed an *excellent* material for the purpose, > >especially if augmented with something like a wrap > of > >even more rigid/ internally well damped carbon > >fiber/epoxy, using MDF/lead/MDF or MDF/Isodamp/MDF > > >as an actively desirable, inexpensive, practically > >workable spacer core. This is far better than > using a > >highly transmissive material, like metal, to form a > > >"perfect loop" between the arm and platter, damped > or > >not. > > > Hi Igor, some of the "deadest" cabinets I have ever > built used MDF with sheet > lead like that used for roofing, and a layer of > special PVA damper in between > (and covering the lead to air seal it) > > This PVA dampner is from Moyen in Chicago that is > used alot in speakers for > accordion cloth dressing. We use it by the 5 gallon > pail here, and I have used > it most everywhere. The cost isn't that bad either > (read not un-obtainium) > > What about using 2 pieces of MDF with a layer of > lead sandwiched, and thick > layers of this stuff holding it all together? That > would be quite cost > effective too. > > Nick > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: [teres] isodamp vs.soundowm Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:56:55 -0700 From: Stanley Goudge, Stanley Goudge To: teres@aiko.com Guys, Good news guys, according to the data sheets these products are identical, if fact it looks like Soundown copied the isodamp data sheet as it looks identical in every way. But here is the good news, no minimum purchase !!! Looks like I'm off the hook here. Those who wanted the CN-38 should order the Soundown Extensional Tile 3/8" 1' x1' tile at $11.67ea. It comes without PSA,(pressure sensitive adhesive) add $.93 per side for PSA. A better option according to Soundown is to use their TA 30, a two part epoxy for $130 per 1.3 gallon. If you wanted CN-12 then order 1/8" Extensional tile. They have 1/16", 1/8", 1/4", 3/8" and 5/8" thickness. Rule of thumb is to choose a thickness that is 1.2 to 1.4 X the structure for metal. And still more good news, Soundown MDI .04" thickness is engineered for constrained layer damping and has a .10 loss factor from 125 to 1500 Hz in 1/8" to 1/2" base structure. According to Soundown "this loss factor corresponds to a material that will ""thump"" and not ""ring."" This changes my ideas for my Extreme TT and I'm sure you guys can't wait to hear about it. ;-) And for the dead woods they have WDI engineered CLD for wood. More later guys. Stan Subject: Re: [teres] isodamp vs.soundowm Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:19:45 -0700 From: Stanley Goudge, Stanley Goudge To: teres@aiko.com; teres@aiko.com Steve, The isodamp folks have $250 min. and I didn't need that much, so I figured on a group buy to get around this. Thank God that Daus provided us with this info. Thanks Daus. BTW the Soundown is not exactly the same even though the data is, isodamp was specifically engineered for contact with cold sea water that occurs in ballast tanks on subs. The Soundown is engineered for commercial shipping for non-contact with warmer waters. So it may perform better for our use than isodamp. But the MDI material well be better for CLD than the extensional tile, but the tile well be better for under the platter damping on the Teres. Since the boss just went to lunch I guess I can ramble on about the Extreme TT. With this MDI stuff, I think my subchassis should be made from 1/4" x 7" dia. SS/MDI sandwich for 2.5" or so total thickness. With semicircular notch cutout for every other or every (haven't decided)layer, where extensional tile (cut to fit the notch) be epoxied. Now the armboard may not need to be the complex concave structure that first figured. Maybe a thinner 3/8" SS armboard with MDI on both sides and then 1/16" SS on top of the MDI with tonearm base and spindle in contact with the 3/8" base structure only. The channel or grove around the armboard I think might be critical to preventing energy reflections. Once the energy is "excepted" it needs to converted to large mechanical movement confined to a small area, (the edge) just like that tuning fork, (Thanks Ken) were this channel say 3/8" deep x 1/8" would vibrate. Now the damping material pressed into this channel can efficiently convert this large movement to heat. In fact you may be able to tune each armboard for each system particulars by using different damping materials, just like record mats. Got to work now. Stan http://www.soundown.com/ or call (781) 631-9611 At 10:40 AM 3/20/2000 -0700, Steve Zettel wrote: >on 3/20/00 08:50, Stanley Goudge at sgoudge@cisco.com wrote: > >> Guys, Good news guys, according to the data sheets these products are >> identical, if fact it looks like Soundown copied the isodamp data sheet as it >> looks identical in every way. But here is the good news, no minimum purchase >> !!! Looks like I'm off the hook here. Those who wanted the CN-38 should order >> the Soundown Extensional Tile 3/8" 1' x1' tile at $11.67ea. It comes without >> PSA,(pressure sensitive adhesive) add $.93 per side for PSA. A better option >> according to Soundown is to use their TA 30, a two part epoxy for $130 per 1.3 >> gallon. If you wanted CN-12 then order 1/8" Extensional tile. They have 1/16", >> 1/8", 1/4", 3/8" and 5/8" thickness. Rule of thumb is to choose a thickness >> that is 1.2 to 1.4 X the structure for metal. >> >> And still more good news, Soundown MDI .04" thickness is engineered for >> constrained layer damping and has a .10 loss factor from 125 to 1500 Hz in >> 1/8" to 1/2" base structure. According to Soundown "this loss factor >> corresponds to a material that will ""thump"" and not ""ring."" This changes >> my ideas for my Extreme TT and I'm sure you guys can't wait to hear about it. >> ;-) And for the dead woods they have WDI engineered CLD for wood. More later >> guys. >> >> Stan > >Thanks for the information, Stan. I would love to hear your new plans. > >I am not clear if you are still volunteering to put together a Soundown buy, >or suggesting since there is no minimum order that we contact them >ourselves. It would make more sense for each to order and have shipped >direct, rather than the expensive and hassle for you to tranship orders. > >Could I please have the contact info for Soundown again? The original >message is buried somewhere in a folder holding a bazillion teres messages. > >Thanks, > >Steve Z > Subject: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 00:43:17 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com I have some news regarding lamination of the acrylic for the platters. For those that are new to the project the platters will be made from three layers of 1" acrylic bonded together. We went this route because the cost of 3" acrylic was prohibitive. >From the beginning there has been concern about the cosmetics of the bonded layers. Bryce decided to do some testing before gluing the actual platters and sent some pictures so that we would have a clear idea of what to expect. The appearance of the layers is less than both Bryce and I had expected. The primary concern is a light diffraction effect that makes the layers very visible when viewed from certain angles. We also had anticipated that there would be small bubbles in the joints that may be visible. The test sample also has some small bubbles that were intentionally not eliminated so that we could see what they will look like if they show up in the finished platters. I created a simple web page to display the pictures. http://reality.sgi.com/cbrady/audio/teres/platter.html In addition to the effects shown in the pictures there is a subtle discontinuity in the machining marks at the joint since the the material has been softened slightly by the bonding solvent. Bryce is fairly confident that this can be resolved by allowing the platters to "cure" for some time before they are machined. How long we need to let the acrylic cure before machining is unknown, but Bryce is thinking that 1-2 weeks will suffice. We are already behind on the schedule for the bearing and platters and this hitch makes things worse. If 1-2 weeks is long enough for the platters to cure we are expecting delivery of the finished parts in 4-5 weeks. This is quite a bit longer that the initial estimate. Some of the delay was that we were late ordering due to late payments. Some of the delay is also Bryce's busier than expected schedule. Please take a look at the pictures and if you think that you can not live with the cosmetics I would be happy to refund your money. We also have the option of having our platters bead blasted. This would make the surface less transparent and would greatly reduce the visibility of the joints. However, no surface treatment of the platters is currently planned or included in the price of the platters. Personally, I am a little disappointed in the appearance but it is something that I can easily live with. Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 02:38:49 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com -----Original Message----- From: Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 11:43 PM Subject: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report >We also have the option of having our platters bead blasted. This >would make the surface less transparent and would greatly reduce the >visibility of the joints. However, no surface treatment of the platters >is currently planned or included in the price of the platters. > >Personally, I am a little disappointed in the appearance but it >is something that I can easily live with. Again, Chris, thanks for your heroic efforts. This is a small disappointment. (I can't get access to your site tonight for some reason, but no matter....) Whatever. Cosmetics are a consideration, but certainly not the only one. I would certainly consider a price adder for bead blasting, everything else being equal. Is it possible for you to work up a price? Is it feasible for the individual to have this done as a one-off, locally? I rather think I'd prefer that anyway, though I hadn't planned on it. OTOH, another coupla weeks isn't going to kill me, as I have a bazillion other things to do, including building a set of speakers, before I can tackle the 'table. I can wait for a better result. Considering the class 'table we are getting for the price, flexibility is the key here. Peter C Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 03:03:44 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com Chris wrote about the appearance of the test lamination for the platters. I appreciate your thoroughness and your concerns, but far from being disappointed in the appearance, I think they look great! I don't see any need for the additional expense of bead blasting, though if you post jpegs of what the bead blasted test lamination looks like, I will certainly check it out. Both the schedule and the appearance are fine with me. Press on! Thanks, Steve Z Subject: RE: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:41:54 -0700 From: Jon Lane, Jon Lane To: teres@aiko.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com > [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Chris Brady > Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 11:42 PM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report > > > I have some news regarding lamination of the acrylic > for the platters. For those that are new to the project > the platters will be made from three layers of 1" > acrylic bonded together. We went this route because > the cost of 3" acrylic was prohibitive. What was the approximate cost for a 3" version? Jon Lane Subject: RE: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:56:48 -0700 From: Schei, Kenneth, Schei, Kenneth To: 'teres@aiko.com' Chris: I, too, can live with the appearance. I think the machined surface looks excellent, and the visibility of the joint is probably unavoidable. Vacuum bagging should improve the appearance of the joint somewhat by making it tighter and eliminating most of the bubbles. As a comparison, how much extra would bead blasting cost? Ken Ken Schei, P.E. Project Engineer Antarctic Support Associates Email address: scheike@asa.org Phone: 303-643-0163 > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Brady [SMTP:cbrady@sgi.com] > Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 11:42 PM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report > > I have some news regarding lamination of the acrylic > for the platters. For those that are new to the project > the platters will be made from three layers of 1" > acrylic bonded together. We went this route because > the cost of 3" acrylic was prohibitive. > > From the beginning there has been concern about the > cosmetics of the bonded layers. Bryce decided to do some > testing before gluing the actual platters and sent some > pictures so that we would have a clear idea of what to > expect. The appearance of the layers is less than both > Bryce and I had expected. The primary concern is a light > diffraction effect that makes the layers very visible when > viewed from certain angles. We also had anticipated that > there would be small bubbles in the joints that may be > visible. The test sample also has some small bubbles that > were intentionally not eliminated so that we could see what > they will look like if they show up in the finished platters. > > I created a simple web page to display the pictures. > > http://reality.sgi.com/cbrady/audio/teres/platter.html > > In addition to the effects shown in the pictures there is a > subtle discontinuity in the machining marks at the joint since > the the material has been softened slightly by the bonding solvent. > Bryce is fairly confident that this can be resolved by allowing > the platters to "cure" for some time before they are machined. > How long we need to let the acrylic cure before machining is > unknown, but Bryce is thinking that 1-2 weeks will suffice. > > We are already behind on the schedule for the bearing and platters > and this hitch makes things worse. If 1-2 weeks is long enough > for the platters to cure we are expecting delivery of the finished > parts in 4-5 weeks. This is quite a bit longer that the initial > estimate. Some of the delay was that we were late ordering due to > late payments. Some of the delay is also Bryce's busier than > expected schedule. > > Please take a look at the pictures and if you think that you can > not live with the cosmetics I would be happy to refund your money. > > We also have the option of having our platters bead blasted. This > would make the surface less transparent and would greatly reduce the > visibility of the joints. However, no surface treatment of the platters > is currently planned or included in the price of the platters. > > Personally, I am a little disappointed in the appearance but it > is something that I can easily live with. > > Chris Subject: RE: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:12:04 -0700 From: Jon Lane, Jon Lane To: teres@aiko.com > In addition to the effects shown in the pictures > there is a > subtle discontinuity in the machining marks at > the joint since > the the material has been softened slightly by > the bonding solvent. > Bryce is fairly confident that this can be > resolved by allowing > the platters to "cure" for some time before they > are machined. > How long we need to let the acrylic cure before > machining is > unknown, but Bryce is thinking that 1-2 weeks > will suffice. > We also have the option of having our platters > bead blasted. This > would make the surface less transparent and would > greatly reduce the > visibility of the joints. However, no surface > treatment of the platters > is currently planned or included in the price of > the platters. I'd suggest that any surface finishing - especially destructive types like blasting - also be tested before we commit. The softening between layers might also adversely affect the blasting finish. Jon Lane Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:18:33 -0700 From: Daus Studenberg, Daus Studenberg To: teres@aiko.com Hi Chris, First of all, a big THANK YOU for your efforts on the project, you have been doing a great job. I expected some "bubbles" and surface anomalies, but this looks WAY better than I expected! I have machined acrylic before, but I used a router and well, you can kind of guess my results. My only concern is making sure the platter itself is essentially flat. I would not trust the flatness of the acrylic itself and was wondering if both sides would be machined down to make sure that they are both flat. As far is imperfections, I hardly noticed them and I appreciate your honesty in trying to point them out with your pictures. I am happy and perhaps bead blasting may be an option. I also understand this is a HUGE project, so the time delay is of no concern for me. Besides, I think the extra time would be great so that we can actually get some more designs and put some more detailed research into the final product! Great Job Chris, Daus ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Brady To: Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 10:42 PM Subject: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report > I have some news regarding lamination of the acrylic > for the platters. For those that are new to the project > the platters will be made from three layers of 1" > acrylic bonded together. We went this route because > the cost of 3" acrylic was prohibitive. > > From the beginning there has been concern about the > cosmetics of the bonded layers. Bryce decided to do some > testing before gluing the actual platters and sent some > pictures so that we would have a clear idea of what to > expect. The appearance of the layers is less than both > Bryce and I had expected. The primary concern is a light > diffraction effect that makes the layers very visible when > viewed from certain angles. We also had anticipated that > there would be small bubbles in the joints that may be > visible. The test sample also has some small bubbles that > were intentionally not eliminated so that we could see what > they will look like if they show up in the finished platters. > > I created a simple web page to display the pictures. > > http://reality.sgi.com/cbrady/audio/teres/platter.html > > In addition to the effects shown in the pictures there is a > subtle discontinuity in the machining marks at the joint since > the the material has been softened slightly by the bonding solvent. > Bryce is fairly confident that this can be resolved by allowing > the platters to "cure" for some time before they are machined. > How long we need to let the acrylic cure before machining is > unknown, but Bryce is thinking that 1-2 weeks will suffice. > > We are already behind on the schedule for the bearing and platters > and this hitch makes things worse. If 1-2 weeks is long enough > for the platters to cure we are expecting delivery of the finished > parts in 4-5 weeks. This is quite a bit longer that the initial > estimate. Some of the delay was that we were late ordering due to > late payments. Some of the delay is also Bryce's busier than > expected schedule. > > Please take a look at the pictures and if you think that you can > not live with the cosmetics I would be happy to refund your money. > > We also have the option of having our platters bead blasted. This > would make the surface less transparent and would greatly reduce the > visibility of the joints. However, no surface treatment of the platters > is currently planned or included in the price of the platters. > > Personally, I am a little disappointed in the appearance but it > is something that I can easily live with. > > Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:22:06 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com All, A couple of things to keep in mind: The pictures are of full sized platters which means that Bryce is about 57 feet tall, so we don't want to do anything that makes him mad :-)) Seriously ... A big thank you goes out to Chris and Bryce for making the tough decision to slow the process down. Chris has all along felt a great obligation to all involved to keep the project moving forward, and delays like this have been a source of great trouble to him. I for one, agree with the comments that several of you made - another 2-3 weeks of curing time makes no difference in the whole cosmic scheme. I'd rather wait and let the layers stabilize & cure more. Of course, we have no guarantee that this is sufficient time for the solvent to fully cure at the joints, but it ceratinly won't hurt matters to wait. Can Bryce tolerate having 52 uncut blanks taking up space in his shop? This is a question that only Bryce can answer. The pictures seem consistent with the minimum cosmetic quality which we expected. Perfection? We'd all love to have it of course, but I can live with the results if the structure is sound and true. Every time we've asked about the price of 3" acrylic, we were told "you don't want to know". Well, I guess we do want to know. I suspect however, that it's too late to change the order with the plastic supplier in any event. The way I look at it, we're getting a $400 bearing for half price, and a free platter thrown in for good measure. There are a couple of folks who just ordered bearings which amazes me, because even if you have a totally different idea for a platter, it would be great to have 3" of acrylic against which to benchmark your ideas. A note to Daus - all surfaces will be machined - this includes the top and bottom of the platter. We had the same concern as you did and the CNC machining process true everything up. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Brady To: Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 11:42 PM Subject: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report I have some news regarding lamination of the acrylic for the platters. For those that are new to the project the platters will be made from three layers of 1" acrylic bonded together. We went this route because the cost of 3" acrylic was prohibitive. >From the beginning there has been concern about the cosmetics of the bonded layers. Bryce decided to do some testing before gluing the actual platters and sent some pictures so that we would have a clear idea of what to expect. The appearance of the layers is less than both Bryce and I had expected. The primary concern is a light diffraction effect that makes the layers very visible when viewed from certain angles. We also had anticipated that there would be small bubbles in the joints that may be visible. The test sample also has some small bubbles that were intentionally not eliminated so that we could see what they will look like if they show up in the finished platters. I created a simple web page to display the pictures. http://reality.sgi.com/cbrady/audio/teres/platter.html In addition to the effects shown in the pictures there is a subtle discontinuity in the machining marks at the joint since the the material has been softened slightly by the bonding solvent. Bryce is fairly confident that this can be resolved by allowing the platters to "cure" for some time before they are machined. How long we need to let the acrylic cure before machining is unknown, but Bryce is thinking that 1-2 weeks will suffice. We are already behind on the schedule for the bearing and platters and this hitch makes things worse. If 1-2 weeks is long enough for the platters to cure we are expecting delivery of the finished parts in 4-5 weeks. This is quite a bit longer that the initial estimate. Some of the delay was that we were late ordering due to late payments. Some of the delay is also Bryce's busier than expected schedule. Please take a look at the pictures and if you think that you can not live with the cosmetics I would be happy to refund your money. We also have the option of having our platters bead blasted. This would make the surface less transparent and would greatly reduce the visibility of the joints. However, no surface treatment of the platters is currently planned or included in the price of the platters. Personally, I am a little disappointed in the appearance but it is something that I can easily live with. Chris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:31:07 -0700 From: Stanley Goudge, Stanley Goudge To: teres@aiko.com; teres@aiko.com Hi Chris, The sample pictures look super to me Chris and the extra wait is no big deal. BTW I looked at your last two versions of the Teres and was wondering what kind of Blue Cheese your using for the Teres sandwich. Looks like isodamp C-1002-50 to me, which after last nights going over all the data sheets, is a excellent choice. I was a little off regarding the C-1002, stating that the CN-xx is better. Well the CN-xx is better for the under the platter extensional damping, but C-1002 maybe better for CLD because its more flexible, needed for shear deformation. Soundown doesn't have an equivalent to the C-1002, although the Soundown tile in 3/8" or 5/8" will come close in performance. Remember that isodamp CN-xx and Soundown tile are equivalent. I really like the way the blue material looks with the black chassis and bet it would look cool with SS as well. So I'm rethinking my version and my use the C-1002 material, mainly because it comes is seven thickness and performance on metal is excellent. Price for C-1002-50 1/2" thick 12" x 48" is $151.48 w/ single side PSA add $1.75 sq. ft. for the other side. I'll be looking more into this as time permits. Meanwhile I think everyone on the list should go over this tutorial on CLD. Thanks a million Chris, Stan http://www.earsc.com/new/pdfs/engineering/CLD.pdf At 11:42 PM 3/20/2000 -0700, Chris Brady wrote: >I have some news regarding lamination of the acrylic >for the platters. For those that are new to the project >the platters will be made from three layers of 1" >acrylic bonded together. We went this route because >the cost of 3" acrylic was prohibitive. > >From the beginning there has been concern about the >cosmetics of the bonded layers. Bryce decided to do some >testing before gluing the actual platters and sent some >pictures so that we would have a clear idea of what to >expect. The appearance of the layers is less than both >Bryce and I had expected. The primary concern is a light >diffraction effect that makes the layers very visible when >viewed from certain angles. We also had anticipated that >there would be small bubbles in the joints that may be >visible. The test sample also has some small bubbles that >were intentionally not eliminated so that we could see what >they will look like if they show up in the finished platters. > >I created a simple web page to display the pictures. > > http://reality.sgi.com/cbrady/audio/teres/platter.html > >In addition to the effects shown in the pictures there is a >subtle discontinuity in the machining marks at the joint since >the the material has been softened slightly by the bonding solvent. >Bryce is fairly confident that this can be resolved by allowing >the platters to "cure" for some time before they are machined. >How long we need to let the acrylic cure before machining is >unknown, but Bryce is thinking that 1-2 weeks will suffice. > >We are already behind on the schedule for the bearing and platters >and this hitch makes things worse. If 1-2 weeks is long enough >for the platters to cure we are expecting delivery of the finished >parts in 4-5 weeks. This is quite a bit longer that the initial >estimate. Some of the delay was that we were late ordering due to >late payments. Some of the delay is also Bryce's busier than >expected schedule. > >Please take a look at the pictures and if you think that you can >not live with the cosmetics I would be happy to refund your money. > >We also have the option of having our platters bead blasted. This >would make the surface less transparent and would greatly reduce the >visibility of the joints. However, no surface treatment of the platters >is currently planned or included in the price of the platters. > >Personally, I am a little disappointed in the appearance but it >is something that I can easily live with. > >Chris > Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:02:36 -0700 From: Ron Welborne, Ron Welborne To: teres@aiko.com Here is my 2 cents: I personally will be disappointed if the seam is visible from a distance of more than 2 or 3 feet. Cosmetics are important to me. I'm not sure though if we can make a decision based upon the miniature protoytpe Bryce built for us. The smaller diameter platter is going to allow more light to pass from one side to the other. Does this emphasize the seam's visibility or make it less visible. Bryce did not make this prototype in the vacuum bag nor did he use the planned amount of force to bond the layers. Once again, does this emphasize the seam's presence or will it not be so noticeable on the larger platter? I propose we have Bryce build us one full size platter and ship it to Chris. Since there is a large percentage of Teres members in the Denver area we could all meet to inspect the platter, rotate it, view it under different lighting conditions, etc. and post our individual thoughts to the rest of the group. Additionally, if we decided that the seam was objectionable, we could have it bead blasted here in Denver and once again the group meet to inspect the results. I know this will add to the cost because Bryce will have to setup twice and it will delay the project but I think it is worth it to insure the final platter is visually acceptable to all members. Regards, Ron Welborne Labs wlabs@ix.netcom.com ph: 303.470.6585 fax: 303.791.5783 website --------------- www.welbornelabs.com ----------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Brady To: Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 11:42 PM Subject: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report > I have some news regarding lamination of the acrylic > for the platters. For those that are new to the project > the platters will be made from three layers of 1" > acrylic bonded together. We went this route because > the cost of 3" acrylic was prohibitive. > > From the beginning there has been concern about the > cosmetics of the bonded layers. Bryce decided to do some > testing before gluing the actual platters and sent some > pictures so that we would have a clear idea of what to > expect. The appearance of the layers is less than both > Bryce and I had expected. The primary concern is a light > diffraction effect that makes the layers very visible when > viewed from certain angles. We also had anticipated that > there would be small bubbles in the joints that may be > visible. The test sample also has some small bubbles that > were intentionally not eliminated so that we could see what > they will look like if they show up in the finished platters. > > I created a simple web page to display the pictures. > > http://reality.sgi.com/cbrady/audio/teres/platter.html > > In addition to the effects shown in the pictures there is a > subtle discontinuity in the machining marks at the joint since > the the material has been softened slightly by the bonding solvent. > Bryce is fairly confident that this can be resolved by allowing > the platters to "cure" for some time before they are machined. > How long we need to let the acrylic cure before machining is > unknown, but Bryce is thinking that 1-2 weeks will suffice. > > We are already behind on the schedule for the bearing and platters > and this hitch makes things worse. If 1-2 weeks is long enough > for the platters to cure we are expecting delivery of the finished > parts in 4-5 weeks. This is quite a bit longer that the initial > estimate. Some of the delay was that we were late ordering due to > late payments. Some of the delay is also Bryce's busier than > expected schedule. > > Please take a look at the pictures and if you think that you can > not live with the cosmetics I would be happy to refund your money. > > We also have the option of having our platters bead blasted. This > would make the surface less transparent and would greatly reduce the > visibility of the joints. However, no surface treatment of the platters > is currently planned or included in the price of the platters. > > Personally, I am a little disappointed in the appearance but it > is something that I can easily live with. > > Chris Subject: RE: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:44:13 -0700 From: Fritz Moore, Fritz Moore To: teres@aiko.com I think it would be reasonable to make a working prototype, I suggested this early on but at that time there were few participants and the one off cost would have been substantial. I think at this point we could produce a single prototype for 5-10.00 extra per person and maybe even sell the prototype when done so there would be no cost. Im not in a hurry and it might make Chris's life less stressful if everybody knows what they're getting. I am not that concerned about the cosmetics of the seams but why not maximize things. I am fairly concerned about the long term stability of a laminated piece of acrylic. If I remember correctly acrylic takes up water and the thin piece I have on my aquarium is about as dimensionally stable as a piece of Jell-O, I flip it each month to get it to warp the other way. It would be very bad if things shifted after machining I wonder how long that joint stays fluid? I certainly have no problem deferring the decision on all of this to those making the parts Im sure they know more about the laminate than I do. I feel very strongly that we should emphasize that Bryce take his time and progress at a rate he is entirely comfortable with after all who has finished there base? One possibility if the seams seem objectionable to Bryce or Chris would be to source dark acrylic, if the lot hasn't been purchased yet. Fritz -----Original Message----- From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of Ron Welborne Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:02 AM To: teres@aiko.com Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Here is my 2 cents: I personally will be disappointed if the seam is visible from a distance of more than 2 or 3 feet. Cosmetics are important to me. I'm not sure though if we can make a decision based upon the miniature protoytpe Bryce built for us. The smaller diameter platter is going to allow more light to pass from one side to the other. Does this emphasize the seam's visibility or make it less visible. Bryce did not make this prototype in the vacuum bag nor did he use the planned amount of force to bond the layers. Once again, does this emphasize the seam's presence or will it not be so noticeable on the larger platter? I propose we have Bryce build us one full size platter and ship it to Chris. Since there is a large percentage of Teres members in the Denver area we could all meet to inspect the platter, rotate it, view it under different lighting conditions, etc. and post our individual thoughts to the rest of the group. Additionally, if we decided that the seam was objectionable, we could have it bead blasted here in Denver and once again the group meet to inspect the results. I know this will add to the cost because Bryce will have to setup twice and it will delay the project but I think it is worth it to insure the final platter is visually acceptable to all members. Regards, Ron Welborne Labs wlabs@ix.netcom.com ph: 303.470.6585 fax: 303.791.5783 website --------------- www.welbornelabs.com ----------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Brady To: Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 11:42 PM Subject: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report > I have some news regarding lamination of the acrylic > for the platters. For those that are new to the project > the platters will be made from three layers of 1" > acrylic bonded together. We went this route because > the cost of 3" acrylic was prohibitive. > > From the beginning there has been concern about the > cosmetics of the bonded layers. Bryce decided to do some > testing before gluing the actual platters and sent some > pictures so that we would have a clear idea of what to > expect. The appearance of the layers is less than both > Bryce and I had expected. The primary concern is a light > diffraction effect that makes the layers very visible when > viewed from certain angles. We also had anticipated that > there would be small bubbles in the joints that may be > visible. The test sample also has some small bubbles that > were intentionally not eliminated so that we could see what > they will look like if they show up in the finished platters. > > I created a simple web page to display the pictures. > > http://reality.sgi.com/cbrady/audio/teres/platter.html > > In addition to the effects shown in the pictures there is a > subtle discontinuity in the machining marks at the joint since > the the material has been softened slightly by the bonding solvent. > Bryce is fairly confident that this can be resolved by allowing > the platters to "cure" for some time before they are machined. > How long we need to let the acrylic cure before machining is > unknown, but Bryce is thinking that 1-2 weeks will suffice. > > We are already behind on the schedule for the bearing and platters > and this hitch makes things worse. If 1-2 weeks is long enough > for the platters to cure we are expecting delivery of the finished > parts in 4-5 weeks. This is quite a bit longer that the initial > estimate. Some of the delay was that we were late ordering due to > late payments. Some of the delay is also Bryce's busier than > expected schedule. > > Please take a look at the pictures and if you think that you can > not live with the cosmetics I would be happy to refund your money. > > We also have the option of having our platters bead blasted. This > would make the surface less transparent and would greatly reduce the > visibility of the joints. However, no surface treatment of the platters > is currently planned or included in the price of the platters. > > Personally, I am a little disappointed in the appearance but it > is something that I can easily live with. > > Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:13:07 -0700 From: Stanley Goudge, Stanley Goudge To: teres@aiko.com; teres@aiko.com If the seam problem cannot not be resolved, perhaps a machined channel, used to cover the imperfections. Also this would make it easier to locate the smoothest area for the belt to ride. Stan At 11:02 AM 3/21/2000 -0700, Ron Welborne wrote: > >Here is my 2 cents: > >I personally will be disappointed if the seam is visible from a distance of >more than 2 or 3 feet. Cosmetics are important to me. > Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:47:03 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com Fritz, > I think it would be reasonable to make a working prototype, I suggested > this early on but at that time there were few participants and the one off > cost would have been substantial. I think at this point we could produce a > single prototype for 5-10.00 extra per person and maybe even sell the > prototype when done so there would be no cost. Im not in a hurry and it > might make Chris's life less stressful if everybody knows what they're > getting. Bryce will be doing some more experimenting with acrylic scraps, including bonding some larger pieces. Depending on how things go he may make a single unit and at least take some pictures for us to review before making the rest of the platters. Bryce knows his business and will take appropriate measures along the way. Lets wait and see how it goes. > I am fairly concerned about the long term stability of a laminated piece of > acrylic. If I remember correctly acrylic takes up water and the thin piece > I have on my aquarium is about as dimensionally stable as a piece of Jell-O, > I flip it each month to get it to warp the other way. > It would be very bad if things shifted after machining I wonder how long > that joint stays fluid? I don't think that there is any reason at all to be concerned about the stability of the platters. This is purely a cosmetic issue. The platters are bonded with a solvent that essentially welds the layers together. When used with a vacuum bag almost all of the solvent is displaced resulting in a very, very thin joint. The joint is not at all fluid after only a few minutes, let alone days. The concern is only that the joint area is slightly softer resulting in a small diference in the appearance at the joint. We can be certain that there will be no shifting of the layers. > > I certainly have no problem deferring the decision on all of this to those > making the parts Im sure they know more about the laminate than I do. > > I feel very strongly that we should emphasize that Bryce take his time and > progress at a rate he is entirely comfortable with after all who has > finished there base? Thanks for being flexible. I will pass these sentiments on to Bryce. > One possibility if the seams seem objectionable to Bryce or Chris would be > to source dark acrylic, if the lot hasn't been purchased yet. A good thought. I think that it is too late to change the order but I will ask. Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:04:09 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com Ron, > I'm not sure though if we can make a decision based upon the miniature > protoytpe Bryce built for us. The smaller diameter platter is going to > allow more light to pass from one side to the other. Does this emphasize > the seam's visibility or make it less visible. Bryce did not make this > prototype in the vacuum bag nor did he use the planned amount of force to > bond the layers. Once again, does this emphasize the seam's presence or > will it not be so noticeable on the larger platter? Bryce's intent with the prototype was to show us a worse case view. His expectation is that the platters will look at least as good as the prototype. He will be doing some more prototyping. > I propose we have Bryce build us one full size platter and ship it to Chris. > Since there is a large percentage of Teres members in the Denver area we > could all meet to inspect the platter, rotate it, view it under different > lighting conditions, etc. and post our individual thoughts to the rest of > the group. Additionally, if we decided that the seam was objectionable, we > could have it bead blasted here in Denver and once again the group meet to > inspect the results. I would only want to do this if there would be some probability of changing the process based on our examination of the platter. Right now I don't see there is anything that we would or could change. > I know this will add to the cost because Bryce will have to setup twice and > it will delay the project but I think it is worth it to insure the final > platter is visually acceptable to all members. I agree with you here, but only if doing so will make a difference. Chris Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:32:02 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 3/21/00 11:25, Daus Studenberg at daus@ufl.edu wrote: > Hi Chris, > First of all, a big THANK YOU for your efforts on the project, you have been > doing a great job. I expected some "bubbles" and surface anomalies, but > this looks WAY better than I expected! I have machined acrylic before, but > I used a router and well, you can kind of guess my results. My only concern > is making sure the platter itself is essentially flat. I would not trust > the flatness of the acrylic itself and was wondering if both sides would be > machined down to make sure that they are both flat. As far is > imperfections, I hardly noticed them and I appreciate your honesty in trying > to point them out with your pictures. I am happy and perhaps bead blasting > may be an option. I also understand this is a HUGE project, so the time > delay is of no concern for me. Besides, I think the extra time would be > great so that we can actually get some more designs and put some more > detailed research into the final product! > Great Job Chris, > Daus > Daus puts it very well. I thank you and Bryce for your efforts. The appearance and the time line are very acceptable to me. Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:09:19 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 3/21/00 10:26, Thom Mackris at thom_mackris@yahoo.com wrote: > > The pictures seem consistent with the minimum cosmetic quality which we > expected. Perfection? We'd all love to have it of course, but I can live > with the results if the structure is sound and true. Every time we've asked > about the price of 3" acrylic, we were told "you don't want to know". Well, > I guess we do want to know. I suspect however, that it's too late to change > the order with the plastic supplier in any event. > Actually, I think I remember from the very early days of this project someone (Ken?) getting a quote that had the 3" acrylic sheet more than 3X the price of the 1", significantly more than 3X. I probably could find the original e-mails, given enough time. Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:22:44 -0700 From: George Munger, George Munger To: teres@aiko.com Some points for those who are interested in bead blasting... The process to 'dress' (bead-blast) acrylic can reportedly be done with several various media formulas. One formula uses a 'fine grain' grade of media, made up of 50% silica and 50% aluminum oxide, which can achieve the desired, satin-etched surface look. (This look, however, can allow any telltale finger prints to be easily seen, especially on dark colors). If Bryce is not doing this service, it might be available near you, so maybe you can arrange for it on an individual basis. Personally, I am on the fence. On one hand, I'm not completely comfortable with someone 'messing' with my platter, other than Bryce. On the other hand, I want my Teres to look as good as it can, without lowering performance. FWIW, I do know of a quality shop in Brewster NY, near Danbury CT., that will dress acrylic platters for $60.00 each, plus shipping. There are no bulk discounts, as it is all manual labor; turnaround time is approx. 2-6 weeks. The actual effort can take up to an hour to ! dress one platter by hand (akin to air brushing a surface with a very narrow width 1/16th inch line), with very small loss (approx. 1/10,000 inch) of acrylic surface. GM >>> "Thom Mackris" 03/21 2:40 PM >>> Hi Stan, Since you bring it up, Chris & I had discussed machining two small "V" grooves yesterday. This would certainly have cosmetic appeal, turning a liability into a feature IMHO. Our fears were that the group might not like the idea of limiting where they could position the belt. You raise a good point however, that the grooves would show where to place the belt. I'm personally up in the air over this. Let me share more of my perspective at this juncture. My thoughts as we explore our options (if any) at this point, is that I'm treating this as phase 1 of the project. Who knows what we might learn about other platter materials in the next year or two? I like to think of myself has having high cosmetic standards as Ron and Chris and yet I'd live with these minor flaws quite easily. Maybe I'm not as "nuts" as I thought I was. So ... we have a world class bearing and a platter with minor "blems" for $220. Not a bad deal. I'll bet that if/when a small group discovers a new, improved material that defies the laws of physics () we could specify platters and bearings & we could sell the old platters and new bearings on the Joe List & recover our original investment ... just a thought. My thoughts on bead blasting - Given a choice, I'd prefer to not do anything to risk the mechanical & dimensional integrity of our platters. When we learned that Bryce was willing to machine the platters, I treated this as a gift from "beyond". Having someone who is sensitive to the requirements of the project controlling all aspects of production was something I didn't dare hope for and yet it landed in our laps. I would personally prefer slightly more visible "flaws" than to let someone other than Bryce touch *my* platter. The risks outweigh the rewards, IMHO. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Stanley Goudge To: ; Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 12:09 PM Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report If the seam problem cannot not be resolved, perhaps a machined channel, used to cover the imperfections. Also this would make it easier to locate the smoothest area for the belt to ride. Stan At 11:02 AM 3/21/2000 -0700, Ron Welborne wrote: > >Here is my 2 cents: > >I personally will be disappointed if the seam is visible from a distance of >more than 2 or 3 feet. Cosmetics are important to me. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:23:54 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 3/21/00 11:42, Fritz Moore at fbmoore@ucdavis.edu wrote: > > I am fairly concerned about the long term stability of a laminated piece of > acrylic. If I remember correctly acrylic takes up water and the thin piece > I have on my aquarium is about as dimensionally stable as a piece of Jell-O, > I flip it each month to get it to warp the other way. Don't mount your turntable on or in the aquarium, Fritz! > It would be very bad if things shifted after machining I wonder how long > that joint stays fluid? > > I certainly have no problem deferring the decision on all of this to those > making the parts Im sure they know more about the laminate than I do. > > I feel very strongly that we should emphasize that Bryce take his time and > progress at a rate he is entirely comfortable with after all who has > finished there base? > One possibility if the seams seem objectionable to Bryce or Chris would be > to source dark acrylic, if the lot hasn't been purchased yet. That could be cool. . . Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:33:37 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Steve, Here's a follow-up post by Ken on plastics pricing (along with a URL). Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 2:28 PM Subject: RE: Scheu Turntable Project To All: Here's an update on acrylic prices. I got a quote from Regal Plastics here in town (Quote No. 3023497): 1": $373.14 per 4' X 8' sheet. (In stock) 1-1/2": $1398.61 per 4' X 8' sheet. (Order - 3-4 weeks delivery) 2": $2336.40 per 4' X 8' sheet. (Order - 3-4 weeks delivery) Take your pick. I also found a website for San Diego Plastic Inc. for comparison (see URL). Their prices are generally comparable, and they have some useful information. Cheers, Ken Ken Schei, P.E. Project Engineer Antarctic Support Associates Email address: scheike@asa.org Phone: 303-643-0163 http://www.sdplastics.com/acrylic.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Zettel To: Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 3:03 PM Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report on 3/21/00 10:26, Thom Mackris at thom_mackris@yahoo.com wrote: > > The pictures seem consistent with the minimum cosmetic quality which we > expected. Perfection? We'd all love to have it of course, but I can live > with the results if the structure is sound and true. Every time we've asked > about the price of 3" acrylic, we were told "you don't want to know". Well, > I guess we do want to know. I suspect however, that it's too late to change > the order with the plastic supplier in any event. > Actually, I think I remember from the very early days of this project someone (Ken?) getting a quote that had the 3" acrylic sheet more than 3X the price of the 1", significantly more than 3X. I probably could find the original e-mails, given enough time. Steve Z __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:46:21 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 3/21/00 12:40, Thom Mackris at thom_mackris@yahoo.com wrote: > Hi Stan, > > Since you bring it up, Chris & I had discussed machining two small "V" > grooves yesterday. This would certainly have cosmetic appeal, turning a > liability into a feature IMHO. Our fears were that the group might not like > the idea of limiting where they could position the belt. You raise a good > point however, that the grooves would show where to place the belt. I'm > personally up in the air over this. I plan to use, at least at first, the recording tape, so grooves are not a blessing, and in fact may be a liability. Also, as far as aesthetics go, I like the monolithic appearance of an ungrooved platter rim, and do not consider the grooves a positive enhancement. But that is a purely personal matter of taste in style. > > Let me share more of my perspective at this juncture. My thoughts as we > explore our options (if any) at this point, is that I'm treating this as > phase 1 of the project. Who knows what we might learn about other platter > materials in the next year or two? I like to think of myself has having > high cosmetic standards as Ron and Chris and yet I'd live with these minor > flaws quite easily. Maybe I'm not as "nuts" as I thought I was. Amen. I have high standards, but again, realizing the price we are paying, and that I am willing to pay, if there is no mechanical problem (balance, stability, runout, etc) I am content. This was not a "cost no object" project, but a "maximum practical performance" at some moderate cost. > > So ... we have a world class bearing and a platter with minor "blems" for > $220. Not a bad deal. Exactly! > I'll bet that if/when a small group discovers a new, > improved material that defies the laws of physics () we could specify > platters and bearings & we could sell the old platters and new bearings on > the Joe List & recover our original investment ... just a thought. Some folks will paint a room, and afterwards, every time they enter the room they will only see the one or two imperfections they know are, while others will see the whole job and like it (or be oblivious to it). > > My thoughts on bead blasting - Given a choice, I'd prefer to not do > anything to risk the mechanical & dimensional integrity of our platters. > When we learned that Bryce was willing to machine the platters, I treated > this as a gift from "beyond". Having someone who is sensitive to the > requirements of the project controlling all aspects of production was > something I didn't dare hope for and yet it landed in our laps. I would > personally prefer slightly more visible "flaws" than to let someone other > than Bryce touch *my* platter. The risks outweigh the rewards, IMHO. Well said, and my thoughts exactly. Thanks Thom. > > Cheers, > Thom > Steve Z Subject: RE: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:50:32 -0700 From: Schei, Kenneth, Schei, Kenneth To: 'teres@aiko.com' San Diego Plastics list the following prices: 1" Clear: $19.45 per SF 3" Clear: $109.98 per SF 1" Color: $37.74 per SF Either one piece (3") or color would cost about twice as much, which is what drove our original thinking. Also if we used 3" we would probably have to buy a full 4' X 8' sheet ($3519.36) which may not be cost efficient. Ken http://www.sdplastics.com/sdplas2.html > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Zettel [SMTP:zettel@libby.org] > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 3:04 PM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report > > on 3/21/00 10:26, Thom Mackris at thom_mackris@yahoo.com wrote: > > > > The pictures seem consistent with the minimum cosmetic quality which we > > expected. Perfection? We'd all love to have it of course, but I can > live > > with the results if the structure is sound and true. Every time we've > asked > > about the price of 3" acrylic, we were told "you don't want to know". > Well, > > I guess we do want to know. I suspect however, that it's too late to > change > > the order with the plastic supplier in any event. > > > Actually, I think I remember from the very early days of this project > someone (Ken?) getting a quote that had the 3" acrylic sheet more than 3X > the price of the 1", significantly more than 3X. I probably could find the > original e-mails, given enough time. > > Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:51:19 -0700 From: Stanley Goudge, Stanley Goudge To: teres@aiko.com; teres@aiko.com I got a price for 3" 4' x 8' for $2200 and 1" for $400. Stan At 03:31 PM 3/21/2000 -0700, Thom Mackris wrote: >It's worse than that, Steve (assuming the $1700 price for 1.5" is correct). >I kept forgetting the pricing myself. Here's a copy of a correction e-mail >that Ken sent on 12/13/99. > >Cheers, >Thom > >----- Original Message ----- >From: ; ; ; >Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 2:53 PM >Subject: RE: Scheu Turntable Project > >Thom: > >Actually the prices for acrylic I was quoted are about $370 for a 4' X 8' >sheet of 1" and $1700 for a 4' X 8' sheet of 1-1/2". The explanation for >the astronomic difference was that the 1" is the largest extruded thickness, >and the 1-1/2" sheets are cast. But another source quoted $650 for 1-1/2" >so it all depends on who knows what they're talking about and we probably >wouldn't find that out unless we actually placed an order. I figure we can >get 8 to 10 platters and bases out of one 4' X 8' sheet. I would much >prefer 1-1/2". An option would be to use 1-1/2" acrylic for the platter and >1" for the base, but that would probably requiring us to buy less than full >sheets, which may not be an option. > >Ken > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Steve Zettel >To: >Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 3:03 PM >Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report > > >on 3/21/00 10:26, Thom Mackris at thom_mackris@yahoo.com wrote: >> >> The pictures seem consistent with the minimum cosmetic quality which we >> expected. Perfection? We'd all love to have it of course, but I can live >> with the results if the structure is sound and true. Every time we've >asked >> about the price of 3" acrylic, we were told "you don't want to know". >Well, >> I guess we do want to know. I suspect however, that it's too late to >change >> the order with the plastic supplier in any event. >> >Actually, I think I remember from the very early days of this project >someone (Ken?) getting a quote that had the 3" acrylic sheet more than 3X >the price of the 1", significantly more than 3X. I probably could find the >original e-mails, given enough time. > >Steve Z > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:02:00 -0700 From: Stanley Goudge, Stanley Goudge To: teres@aiko.com; teres@aiko.com That right guys 3" for $2176 ea. at two sheet qty. I can get it in a day and it ships from Houston. Stan At 03:37 PM 3/21/2000 -0700, Thom Mackris wrote: >Steve, > >Here's a follow-up post by Ken on plastics pricing (along with a URL). > >Thom > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: ; ; ; > >Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 2:28 PM >Subject: RE: Scheu Turntable Project > > >To All: > >Here's an update on acrylic prices. I got a quote from Regal Plastics here >in town (Quote No. 3023497): > >1": $373.14 per 4' X 8' sheet. (In stock) > >1-1/2": $1398.61 per 4' X 8' sheet. (Order - 3-4 weeks delivery) > >2": $2336.40 per 4' X 8' sheet. (Order - 3-4 weeks delivery) > >Take your pick. > >I also found a website for San Diego Plastic Inc. for comparison (see URL). >Their prices are generally comparable, and they have some useful >information. > >Cheers, Ken > >Ken Schei, P.E. >Project Engineer >Antarctic Support Associates >Email address: scheike@asa.org >Phone: 303-643-0163 > >http://www.sdplastics.com/acrylic.html > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Steve Zettel >To: >Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 3:03 PM >Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report > > >on 3/21/00 10:26, Thom Mackris at thom_mackris@yahoo.com wrote: >> >> The pictures seem consistent with the minimum cosmetic quality which we >> expected. Perfection? We'd all love to have it of course, but I can live >> with the results if the structure is sound and true. Every time we've >asked >> about the price of 3" acrylic, we were told "you don't want to know". >Well, >> I guess we do want to know. I suspect however, that it's too late to >change >> the order with the plastic supplier in any event. >> >Actually, I think I remember from the very early days of this project >someone (Ken?) getting a quote that had the 3" acrylic sheet more than 3X >the price of the 1", significantly more than 3X. I probably could find the >original e-mails, given enough time. > >Steve Z > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - Progress Report Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:43:42 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 3/22/00 13:10, Stanley Goudge at sgoudge@cisco.com wrote: > Yea we could Steve, if well all wanted the Spj type subchassis. I however > realize you wouldn't consider a redesign because you haven't thought *yet* of > other options. Hmmm. . . was this a dig? Actually, I can see some merit in many of the ideas that have been flown here on the Teres list. And I have proposed some of my own, of various degrees of worth. Here I was thinking I was being too flexible. . . > I'm willing to go any route that the group decides. And I was > merely suggesting yet another option that *fits* the ever changing situation, > as perceived. We gotta be versatile in these group situations, hey I already > giving up on a SS chassis and to throw in the towel to the lossies, man that's > sacrifice! ;-) No need to sacrifice your ideas simply to achieve group concensus, Stan. There is no rush to come to a group subchassis design. Early on in the project it was decided that we had to ultimately achieve agreement on the parts that would be prohibitive for an individual to fabricate at home due to cost or complexity or need for highly precise measuring and milling equipment. Thus the platter, bearing well and spindle needed a unified design that could be contracted out, and economies of scale realized. The same reasoning applied to the motor/controller kit, coupled with the generosity of Manfred Huber volunteering his sophisticated design and support. However, I don't think we seriously expected to do one subchassis for all. This was to be the fertile area for customization and experimentation, where various philosophies could be applied and validated or discarded. Plenty of room for both the rigid and the lossy. If you want to develop a subchassis design and can achieve enough concensus to realize the economies of scale in purchase of materials and fabrication, then more power to you. I truly do wish you good fortune in this. But I have yet to hear a compelling argument to use 3" acrylic for the subchassis any more than I have to use 3" stainless steel. 8^) And aesthetically, my own opinion of the Spj is that it is way too gaudy and baroque. But that is just personal taste, mind you. I think it would be very interesting to be able to compare some of the finished products in a year or so, perhaps at Thom's Colorado Triode Summit. Steve Z