Subject: Re: [teres] Phono Stages Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:31:42 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Hi Bill, A couple of data points for you. Last Saturday evening, Chris, Blair Hansen and I got together to listen to three different phono stages. Blair is a passive member of the group - he is riding safely in our slipstream. This was not a rigorous, definitive preamp shootout, but the results would give you the confidence to procede with one of the two phono stages. We listened to Chris's fairly stock Thorens (160?) which has a ~$200 Grado mounted on it. The setup was Chris' rig as depicted on his website. In addition to Chris' Loesch phono/linestage, I brought my Hyper-It (heavily modified Super It thanks to the boundless energy of our audio buddy Igor), and Blair brought his $1800 Cary (12-AU7) based unit. The differences between the three were very subtle & I don't have time to get into detail at the moment other than to say that in *Chris'* system, we all prefered the Hyper-It ... low level detail, lower noise floor, etc. There was one phrase on a Billie Holiday record which took on a new meaning through the Hyper It. All three are very fine phono stages, and I suspect that the Loesch was at a slight disadvantage with the Grado, because Chris has tweaked the RIAA to death and it might have merely been revealing the rolled off Grado cartridge (I have yet to play with the RIAA on the Hyper It - Igor wanted to leave me with something to do ). On Saturday, Chris is bringing his Loesch to my house for a comparison using my Merrill / Audiocraft unipivot / Sumiko Virtuoso Talisman Boron MC cartridge. I wonder if the results will be reversed ... stay tuned. Bottom line ... you can't go wrong building the Loesch *or* consulting Igor about a Super It ==> Hyper It mod. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: WMollard To: Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 11:34 PM Subject: Re: [teres] Teres-Bearing & Platter - New Info Thanks Chris and Bryce! You guys are the best!! Even if the 3" change was an option I would continue with the 3 x 1" rather than triple the cost to provide 3" billets. Full steam ahead... geeze maybe I ought to buy a cartridge, arm, a few records and get on with building a preamp. The modified Loesch circuit looks mighty good on your web site BTW. Once again, thanks for your effort, it is greatly apreciated! Best Bill __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] Phono Stages Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:48:10 -0700 From: Steve Tag, Steve Tag To: teres@aiko.com Hi Igor; I've got a stock Super-it and I'd just love to tweak it to the max. Any suggestions? And, does anyone have a copy of the schematic or know where I could find it on the web? I'm thinking of soldering the tonearm wires right into the board, with the phono preamp fairly close to the arm. Do any of you have experience using the Super it (or any phono pre with volume control) straight into the poweramps? I'll have to play around with this tonight and see how well this works compared to plugging it into an active (Wellborne Revielle) preamp. I've been using a c-j PV5 phono section- tape outs into the good preamp, and it's good, but I know it could be better. Thanks in advance for your help! Steve Tag -----Original Message----- From: Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Date: Friday, March 24, 2000 4:54 PM Subject: Re: [teres] Phono Stages >In >addition to Chris' Loesch phono/linestage, I brought my Hyper-It (heavily >modified Super It thanks to the boundless energy of our audio buddy Igor), >Bottom line ... you can't go wrong building the Loesch *or* consulting Igor >about a Super It ==> Hyper It mod. > Subject: Re: [teres] Phono Stages Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 17:49:35 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: Teres_List Hi Steve - I sent the following post along with a Super It schematic but I suspect that it may be bogged down in majordomo even though the file attachment is only 29K. Under separate cover, I'll send you a copy of the schematic if it doesn't get to the list. Cheers, Thom Original post follows .... This list has an amazing number of Super It Owners ... at least 4 that I know of (me, Igor, you, Steve Z) out of perhaps 50 people! I'm sure Igor will respond to you privately off-list, but let me note that doing equipment mods and acoustic consulting is one of his many income sources. I'm sure he'd be willing to help you to a point. Steve Zettel and Igor have been working together on Steve's Super It mods, and Steve has been a test bed for the massive documentation package that Igor has assembled. By the time Igor had just about finished the mods to his and my units, I came across a Revision E schematic. Igor really could have used this earlier in the project - reverse engineering from the circuit board was a task I certainly wasn't up to which was one reason that I "encouraged" him to help me with it. I'm attaching a copy of the (29K) schematic to this e-mail. Igor has done massive amounts of research on the Super It. In addition to having specified a custom power transformer for this little beast, he's worked out a complete parts list which takes into account all of the minimum orders for Digi-Key & Mouser, thereby making the project cheaper. His analysis on power umbilicals alone was quite a feat, as he found it extremely difficlult to spec out an umbilical that was not rigid. This was an important feature to him because he wanted to anticipate people who might want to site their Super/Hyper It close to their 'table, on it's suspension. Steve Zettel is looking at a source for this umbilical for the folks who are using a torroid for their motor controller. There's a ton of stuff he's done. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Tag To: Sent: Friday, March 24, 2000 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [teres] Phono Stages Hi Igor; I've got a stock Super-it and I'd just love to tweak it to the max. Any suggestions? And, does anyone have a copy of the schematic or know where I could find it on the web? I'm thinking of soldering the tonearm wires right into the board, with the phono preamp fairly close to the arm. Do any of you have experience using the Super it (or any phono pre with volume control) straight into the poweramps? I'll have to play around with this tonight and see how well this works compared to plugging it into an active (Wellborne Revielle) preamp. I've been using a c-j PV5 phono section- tape outs into the good preamp, and it's good, but I know it could be better. Thanks in advance for your help! Steve Tag __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: [teres] Tonearm Overhang Chart Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 16:36:28 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: Teres_List I've been remiss in publishing the overhang chart. Rather than paste it in here, check the analog addicts Linn LP12 FAQ at: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/4133/lp12_faq.txt for the chart. This chart is not limited to Linn stuff. The main site http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/4133/ has FAQs on numerous turntables, Roxan, Thorens, etc. Cheers, Thom Subject: Re: [teres] Bases and Vibration Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:51:03 -0700 From: PEARL Cust Serv, PEARL Cust Serv To: teres@aiko.com Igor Kuznetsoff, gorkuz@yahoo.com wrote > Folks, > The black goo, made by 3M, that I've mentioned > from time to time works quite nicely at the headshell, > far better than blu-tack can. Blu-tack is more > massive, but far less absorptive. A polymer coating > meant for tool handles called Dip-It works wonders on > tone arms. I like it better than arm "wraps". The > combination of the two do wonders for a quiet > background. Of the two, the goo is easily removable > if you don't like it, the coating would be somewhat > more difficult. > > Igor ================================ Hi All: Bingo ! ! ! . . . pvc and its ilk are very effective damping mtls. Back in the days when I was researching "dopes" for fabric dome tweeters the best by far was a heat curing "plier handle dip" made by Sinclair and Rush . . alas now out of production. It would even tame the 2nd "oil can" resonance that most of these devices exhibit at about 12kHz and which gives them that "hot" sound . . . . What works REALLY well on tone arms is to first wrap the length of the arm with a fairly heavy *cotton* thread and then impregnate that with a version of the said dip thinned down to a viscosity that would allow it to impregnate the thread all the way to the base metal. After a couple of coats and drying time in between, a heat cure would finish the job to produce a wonderfully "quiet" arm shaft. Best regards, Bill - PEARL, Inc. Subject: Re: [teres] Bases and Vibration Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:56:49 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Interesting idea, *and* very organic for those into the C37 thing. Good idea, regardless of the role of theories, just plain makes sense. Igor --- PEARL Cust Serv wrote: > Igor Kuznetsoff, gorkuz@yahoo.com wrote > > > Folks, > > The black goo, made by 3M, that I've > mentioned > > from time to time works quite nicely at the > headshell, > > far better than blu-tack can. Blu-tack is more > > massive, but far less absorptive. A polymer > coating > > meant for tool handles called Dip-It works wonders > on > > tone arms. I like it better than arm "wraps". > The > > combination of the two do wonders for a quiet > > background. Of the two, the goo is easily > removable > > if you don't like it, the coating would be > somewhat > > more difficult. > > > > Igor > ================================ > > Hi All: > Bingo ! ! ! . . . pvc and its ilk are very > effective damping mtls. Back > in the days when I was researching "dopes" for > fabric dome tweeters the best > by far was a heat curing "plier handle dip" made by > Sinclair and Rush . . > alas now out of production. > It would even tame the 2nd "oil can" resonance > that most of these > devices exhibit at about 12kHz and which gives them > that "hot" sound . . . . > What works REALLY well on tone arms is to first > wrap the length of the > arm with a fairly heavy *cotton* thread and then > impregnate that with a > version of the said dip thinned down to a viscosity > that would allow it to > impregnate the thread all the way to the base metal. > After a couple of coats > and drying time in between, a heat cure would finish > the job to produce a > wonderfully "quiet" arm shaft. > > > > Best regards, > Bill - PEARL, Inc. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: [teres] Tonearm tweaks Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:53:29 -0700 From: Jeremy Epstein, Jeremy Epstein To: teres This is a bit premature, and I probably will get way more advice than I can ever make use of, but here goes anyway : I purchased a simple tonearm from the person whose info I had posted to the group. It's a nicely-machined, no frills S-shaped tonearm. I bought it because it seemed simple enough to be good, and easily tweaked, and it was fairly cheap and looks easy to mount as well. It has a lateral balance/antiskating adjustment with which I am not familiar, and so I have (at least) a couple of questions. The tonearm can be seen at this URL : http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=149682&a=1773196 1) How does one set up for lateral balance/antiskating correctly? 2) Any tweaks come immediately to mind? The cartridge leads look like nothing special, so maybe an arm rewire is a good move, and there is a 5-pin DIN connector at the bottom of the pivot post which might be better removed and replaced by a solder connection to a hot-stuff tonearm cable, just to name two ideas that leap to mind. I am following the arm-tube-damping info with interest also. -j -- ========================================= Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com ========================================= Subject: Re: [teres] Tonearm tweaks Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:21:46 -0700 From: Kalman Rubinson, Kalman Rubinson To: teres On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Jeremy Epstein wrote: > I purchased a simple tonearm from the person whose info I had posted to > the group. It's a nicely-machined, no frills S-shaped tonearm. I bought > it because it seemed simple enough to be good, and easily tweaked, and > it was fairly cheap and looks easy to mount as well. It has a lateral > balance/antiskating adjustment with which I am not familiar, and so I > have (at least) a couple of questions. It has lateral balance but no antiskate that I can see. > 1) How does one set up for lateral balance/antiskating correctly? After adjusting the main weights for neutral balance in the vertical plane. The smaller LB weight is adjusted so that there is no movement, at neutral balance, in the horizontal plane. All this is done with the cartridge in place and set with the stylus in the plane of the disc but not in contact with any disc. > 2) Any tweaks come immediately to mind? The cartridge leads look like > nothing special, so maybe an arm rewire is a good move, and there is a > 5-pin DIN connector at the bottom of the pivot post which might be > better removed and replaced by a solder connection to a hot-stuff > tonearm cable, just to name two ideas that leap to mind. I am following > the arm-tube-damping info with interest also. Sure but this arm is, AFAIK, a pig in a poke. Kal Subject: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:57:40 -0700 From: Bob.Obo, Bob.Obo To: teres@aiko.com Hiya Folks... below is the scoop on the Rega Arms. The information in this email supercedes all previous emails and is the only basis for your participation. Please read all the information carefully. ACTION REQUIRED: If you want to participate in a Rega Group Purchase you must identify the arm/mods you want and commit to your purchase by noon Monday, April 3, 2000 by email to the list server teres. You email must read... I want to participate in the Rega O/L Group Purchase. I want...[arm model/mods] Ship to...[name/shipping address] If you have further questions ask ASAP and we will try to answer ASAP! "Estimated" Timeline... add grain of salt! Order Deadline April 3, 2000 Group Purchase Viability April 3, 2000 Develop Cost April 4, 2000 Send Money for Purchase to "Teres Distribution Agent" April 18, 2000 Send Money to O/L April 19, 2000 O/L Receive Money April 29, 2000 O/L Processing Completed May 14, 2000 O/L Shipment Received June 7, 2000 Reshipped June 10, 2000 Received June 24, 2000 Shipping from Great Britain to the drop location is $5.80US for each arm. The arms will then be repackaged and reshipped at an additional expense to the purchaser. Any additional cost for packaging will be determined later. As I live in Canada, an additional 14% plus duty (2-4%) will be added to the final purchase price if you want me to ship. However, the additional taxes if shipped to the USA are zero. While I have moved this process along, I do not think shipping these arms to Canada for me to reship is cost effective and would entertain someone in the USA stepping in for this part. However, I would be pleased to do the shipping via Canada if the group so desires. ACTION REQUIRED: Will anyone accept the responsibility of receiving/repackaging and reshipping the arms? No Chris... down boy. Prices reflect NO VAT, payment to O/L will be in USD No unmodified arms can be purchased from Origin Live (see email from O/L below) Single Group (20) Arm $145.94 $145.94 Structural Mod $100.42 $75.31 Internal Wire $93.72 $70.29 External Wire $93.72 $70.29 Plugs $26.78 $20.08 ***Note*** these prices are approximate and will be adjusted for currency fluctuations once the bulk order is deemed viable. Origin/Live's response to recent email ***Quote/Copy begins*** Mark Baker Tel: 01703 442183 Fax: 01703 398905 E-mail: origin.live@virgin.net Web Site: http://www.originlive.com REGA GROUP PURCHASE QUESTIONS #1. Can an unmodded arm be bought from O/L if a REGA dealer is available nearby... what is nearby? As mentioned previously we do not sell unmodified arms for a number of good reasons. #2. Does the discount apply to the Rega VTA? Does the discount apply to cartridges? [it applies to the VTA but not cartridges as we have no margin to play with since we do not manufacture cartridges] #3. How long is OL internal wire coming out of a tonearm tube? [ the internal wire does not exit the bottom of the arm base as it is soldered internally to the external wire at the base plug] ... Can someone order an extra long length so they could connect this internal wire to their pre-amp...if yes, the cost is? [Yes they can - at an extra cost of £10 for any length. ] There seems to be an idea going around at present that continuous wires are an advantage - we have tried this and can only comment as follows... The external screened cable we use is better than the internal wiring. Internal wires must be very thin to avoid arm friction and are thus a compromise - external cabling is uncompromised and the benefits of optimized design far outweigh the benefits of avoiding a hard wired joint (hard wiring is nothing like as degrading as contact joints or brass connectors etc. The other problems of using the internal wiring externally is that the wires should be configured at a set distance apart and screening is very costly. Put another way - the ideal, is to request that the external cable is continued all the way to the headshell (which is not possible of course due to friction problems). Hopefully this may clarify that in our experience the compromise cable is the internal wiring not the external and as said before the joint is relatively insignificant in comparison to the effect of the type of wire used (even over short lengths). $4. Would all the arms be shipped bulk to one location or can one (some) be shipped individually to different locations and still receive the discount? [ individually shipped arms would each carry a £9 carriage charge] #5. THE TRANSACTION... Would the entire amount for the group purchase be required before work began? How long would an order of 20 arms require... the structural mod, internal and external rewiring? Are the orders payed in US dollars or British Pounds? Do you take VISA ? [ we would require advance payment. The time would be approx 4 days of work. It may take up to 10 days to get hold of the Rega arms as we do not have quite this quantity in stock at present. US dollars or UK pounds GBP are fine - please see not below METHODS OF PAYMENT a) Direct transfer to our bank (bank charges can be pricey see details below). b) Money order, or cashiers cheque ( By far the least expensive method). c) Eurocheque. d) Cash in £ pounds sterling sent in insured letter. e) Send signed travellers cheques If you wish to pay in American dollars or convert from other currencies, please multiply prices by factors found in up to date foreign currency conversion site at http://www.xe.net/currency/ We ourselves do not take credit cards at this time. Make any cheques and payments out to "Origin Live" and send to address as follows Origin Live, 87 Chessel Crescent, Bitterne, Southampton SO19 4BT UK If you wire a money transfer direct through your bank, then our bank details are as follows (your bank will explain the procedure):- Barclays Bank Bitterne, Southampton Group, PO Box 2, Southampton SO14 2SB UK Bank Sort Code 20-79-29 Account No 80251100 We look forward to hearing from you. ***Quote/Copy Ends*** That's all folks! Bill Subject: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:20:25 -0700 From: George Munger, George Munger To: teres@aiko.com I may be a bit confused, (very sorry) but, with all of these dead horses lying around... 1) Is there a price for the O/L VTA mod? 1a) Is the O/L VTA mod *THE* VTA mod for us, or, was there another VTA we were considering? 2) Is the 'structural mod' noted above the same as the 'rear-arm stub and counterweight' mod mentioned in Paul Szabady's RB300 + mods review from the Phonogram list Thom fowarded to the Teres list? 3) I guess we all decided on the RB250, right? (and not the RB300? Therefore the RB300, is not an option, right?) George Munger >>> "Bob.Obo" 03/29 9:55 PM >>> Hiya Folks... below is the scoop on the Rega Arms. The information in this email supercedes all previous emails and is the only basis for your participation. Please read all the information carefully. ACTION REQUIRED: If you want to participate in a Rega Group Purchase you must identify the arm/mods you want and commit to your purchase by noon Monday, April 3, 2000 by email to the list server teres. You email must read... I want to participate in the Rega O/L Group Purchase. I want...[arm model/mods] Ship to...[name/shipping address] If you have further questions ask ASAP and we will try to answer ASAP! "Estimated" Timeline... add grain of salt! Order Deadline April 3, 2000 Group Purchase Viability April 3, 2000 Develop Cost April 4, 2000 Send Money for Purchase to "Teres Distribution Agent" April 18, 2000 Send Money to O/L April 19, 2000 O/L Receive Money April 29, 2000 O/L Processing Completed May 14, 2000 O/L Shipment Received June 7, 2000 Reshipped June 10, 2000 Received June 24, 2000 Shipping from Great Britain to the drop location is $5.80US for each arm. The arms will then be repackaged and reshipped at an additional expense to the purchaser. Any additional cost for packaging will be determined later. As I live in Canada, an additional 14% plus duty (2-4%) will be added to the final purchase price if you want me to ship. However, the additional taxes if shipped to the USA are zero. While I have moved this process along, I do not think shipping these arms to Canada for me to reship is cost effective and would entertain someone in the USA stepping in for this part. However, I would be pleased to do the shipping via Canada if the group so desires. ACTION REQUIRED: Will anyone accept the responsibility of receiving/repackaging and reshipping the arms? No Chris... down boy. Prices reflect NO VAT, payment to O/L will be in USD No unmodified arms can be purchased from Origin Live (see email from O/L below) Single Group (20) Arm $145.94 $145.94 Structural Mod $100.42 $75.31 Internal Wire $93.72 $70.29 External Wire $93.72 $70.29 Plugs $26.78 $20.08 ***Note*** these prices are approximate and will be adjusted for currency fluctuations once the bulk order is deemed viable. Origin/Live's response to recent email ***Quote/Copy begins*** Mark Baker Tel: 01703 442183 Fax: 01703 398905 E-mail: origin.live@virgin.net Web Site: http://www.originlive.com REGA GROUP PURCHASE QUESTIONS #1. Can an unmodded arm be bought from O/L if a REGA dealer is available nearby... what is nearby? As mentioned previously we do not sell unmodified arms for a number of good reasons. #2. Does the discount apply to the Rega VTA? Does the discount apply to cartridges? [it applies to the VTA but not cartridges as we have no margin to play with since we do not manufacture cartridges] #3. How long is OL internal wire coming out of a tonearm tube? [ the internal wire does not exit the bottom of the arm base as it is soldered internally to the external wire at the base plug] ... Can someone order an extra long length so they could connect this internal wire to their pre-amp...if yes, the cost is? [Yes they can - at an extra cost of £10 for any length. ] There seems to be an idea going around at present that continuous wires are an advantage - we have tried this and can only comment as follows... The external screened cable we use is better than the internal wiring. Internal wires must be very thin to avoid arm friction and are thus a compromise - external cabling is uncompromised and the benefits of optimized design far outweigh the benefits of avoiding a hard wired joint (hard wiring is nothing like as degrading as contact joints or brass connectors etc. The other problems of using the internal wiring externally is that the wires should be configured at a set distance apart and screening is very costly. Put another way - the ideal, is to request that the external cable is continued all the way to the headshell (which is not possible of course due to friction problems). Hopefully this may clarify that in our experience the compromise cable is the internal wiring not the external and as said before the joint is relatively insignificant in comparison to the effect of the type of wire used (even over short lengths). $4. Would all the arms be shipped bulk to one location or can one (some) be shipped individually to different locations and still receive the discount? [ individually shipped arms would each carry a £9 carriage charge] #5. THE TRANSACTION... Would the entire amount for the group purchase be required before work began? How long would an order of 20 arms require... the structural mod, internal and external rewiring? Are the orders payed in US dollars or British Pounds? Do you take VISA ? [ we would require advance payment. The time would be approx 4 days of work. It may take up to 10 days to get hold of the Rega arms as we do not have quite this quantity in stock at present. US dollars or UK pounds GBP are fine - please see not below METHODS OF PAYMENT a) Direct transfer to our bank (bank charges can be pricey see details below). b) Money order, or cashiers cheque ( By far the least expensive method). c) Eurocheque. d) Cash in £ pounds sterling sent in insured letter. e) Send signed travellers cheques If you wish to pay in American dollars or convert from other currencies, please multiply prices by factors found in up to date foreign currency conversion site at http://www.xe.net/currency/ We ourselves do not take credit cards at this time. Make any cheques and payments out to "Origin Live" and send to address as follows Origin Live, 87 Chessel Crescent, Bitterne, Southampton SO19 4BT UK If you wire a money transfer direct through your bank, then our bank details are as follows (your bank will explain the procedure):- Barclays Bank Bitterne, Southampton Group, PO Box 2, Southampton SO14 2SB UK Bank Sort Code 20-79-29 Account No 80251100 We look forward to hearing from you. ***Quote/Copy Ends*** That's all folks! Bill Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:18:11 -0700 From: Bob.Obo, Bob.Obo To: teres@aiko.com His Steve, The VTA adjuster is an additional (today) = $57.38US... depends on currency fluctuation. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Steve Tag To: teres@aiko.com Date: Thursday, March 30, 2000 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment >Does this include the VTA mod? > >Steve Tag > > > Single Group (20) >>Arm $145.94 $145.94 >>Structural Mod $100.42 $75.31 >>Internal Wire $93.72 $70.29 >>External Wire $93.72 $70.29 >>Plugs $26.78 $20.08 > > >>#2. Does the discount apply to the Rega VTA? Does the discount apply to >>cartridges? > >>[it applies to the VTA but not cartridges as we have no margin to play with >>since we do not manufacture cartridges] > > > > > Subject: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase - There is another VTA available Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 05:17:28 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com Hi folks, Check out the VTA shown at http://www.artech-electronics.com/us/index.html. It's only $40.00 and looks very easy to use. This is the one for me! Cheers, Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Bob.Obo > Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 9:16 PM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment > > > Hi George, > > I would be glad to field these... > > >1) Is there a price for the O/L VTA mod? > > >From O/L's response...the VTA is a discountable item. From O/L website > (http://www.originlive.com/vta-arm.htm) the VTA adjuster costs GBP 48.00 > and will discount to GPB 36.00 which (today) = $57.38US > > > > 1a) Is the O/L VTA mod *THE* VTA mod for us, or, was there > another VTA > we were considering? > > > a = dunno for u b) there was another VTA discussed but I don't have > the info... anyone? > (Snipper...) > > Best > Bill > Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase - There is another VTA available Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:28:42 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com This appears to be good bang for the buck. I am made vaguely uneasy by set screws on the threads. Coupla questions about VTA, general and specific: In list members' experience, how often does VTA "need" to be adjusted? Is this record dependent or cartridge dependent, or both. If both, which appears to be more important? Is it "set and forget?" Is there any advantage/disadvantage to being able to adjust the verticality of the arm mounting shaft? I understand that moving it from vertical adds just something else to go wrong/adjust/go out of adjustment. Geometrically, I suspect that adjusting VTA would take care of the gross effects of changing verticality. Just wondering. I also suspect that, everything else being equal, it would be preferable to adjust the entire arm board assembly for height, rather than just the arm itself. Kal mentioned that he had doped out something to achieve this with some facility. Unfortunately, I had to format my hard drive just as all that was flying by and have missed any conclusions that might have been drawn. Did Al post drawings, etc.? I remember he was emphatically not proposing to go into business with this item... Still wrestling with arm boards in Phoenix, Peter C ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Croft" To: Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 4:14 AM Subject: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase - There is another VTA available > Hi folks, > Check out the VTA shown at http://www.artech-electronics.com/us/index.html. > It's only $40.00 and looks very easy to use. This is the one for me! > Cheers, > Paul > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > > Bob.Obo > > Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 9:16 PM > > To: teres@aiko.com > > Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment > > > > > > Hi George, > > > > I would be glad to field these... > > > > >1) Is there a price for the O/L VTA mod? > > > > >From O/L's response...the VTA is a discountable item. From O/L website > > (http://www.originlive.com/vta-arm.htm) the VTA adjuster costs GBP 48.00 > > and will discount to GPB 36.00 which (today) = $57.38US > > > > > > > 1a) Is the O/L VTA mod *THE* VTA mod for us, or, was there > > another VTA > > we were considering? > > > > > > a = dunno for u b) there was another VTA discussed but I don't have > > the info... anyone? > > > (Snipper...) > > > > Best > > Bill > > > > Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase - There is another VTA available Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:23:05 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com I forgot about this, Sorry! The pictures are at: http://reality.sgi.com/cbrady/audio/teres/vta.html Chris Kalman Rubinson wrote: > > On Fri, 31 Mar 2000, phclark wrote: > > > I also suspect that, everything else being equal, it would be preferable to > > adjust the entire arm board assembly for height, rather than just the arm > > itself. Kal mentioned that he had doped out something to achieve this with > > some facility. Unfortunately, I had to format my hard drive just as all > > that was flying by and have missed any conclusions that might have been > > drawn. Did Al post drawings, etc.? I remember he was emphatically not > > proposing to go into business with this item... > > I sent Chris the .jps but haven't heard a response. > > BTW, my machinist might be willing to make these but he has > not come up with a price to make it worth while. > > Kal Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase - There is another VTA available Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:06:57 -0700 From: Kalman Rubinson, Kalman Rubinson To: teres@aiko.com On Fri, 31 Mar 2000, Paul Croft wrote: > Hi folks, > Check out the VTA shown at http://www.artech-electronics.com/us/index.html. > It's only $40.00 and looks very easy to use. This is the one for me! I saw one of these at CES. Simple and effective. My only objection is that it requires access to the underside of the plinth to get at the fixing nut. Kal Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase - There is another VTA available Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:20:44 -0700 From: Roscoe Primrose, Roscoe Primrose To: teres@aiko.com Kalman Rubinson wrote: > > On Fri, 31 Mar 2000, Paul Croft wrote: > > > Hi folks, > > Check out the VTA shown at http://www.artech-electronics.com/us/index.html. > > It's only $40.00 and looks very easy to use. This is the one for me! > > I saw one of these at CES. Simple and effective. My only > objection is that it requires access to the underside of > the plinth to get at the fixing nut. > > Kal Yes, but depending on how you do your plinth/armboard on a Teres, access may not be much of an issue. Peace -- Roscoe Primrose -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter "640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981 Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase - There is another VTA available Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:29:11 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com All, As Roscoe points out, designing for access to the bottom side of the arm (as well as for flexible arm cable routing) is a consideration. I personally have been wrestling with this for some time - access to the bottom of the arm without compromising the design. I keep coming back to an exposed architecture, much like the way Verdier affixes his armboards, only hopfefully, a bit more aesthetic looking than the "bolt on" look of his designs. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Roscoe Primrose To: Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase - There is another VTA available Kalman Rubinson wrote: > > On Fri, 31 Mar 2000, Paul Croft wrote: > > > Hi folks, > > Check out the VTA shown at http://www.artech-electronics.com/us/index.html. > > It's only $40.00 and looks very easy to use. This is the one for me! > > I saw one of these at CES. Simple and effective. My only > objection is that it requires access to the underside of > the plinth to get at the fixing nut. > > Kal Yes, but depending on how you do your plinth/armboard on a Teres, access may not be much of an issue. Peace -- Roscoe Primrose -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter "640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981 Subject: Re: [teres] :VTA adjustment Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 20:12:27 -0700 From: Stephen Tag, Stephen Tag To: teres@aiko.com I've been imagining an adjustable armboard with the adjustments done by some kind of servo motor and a wire to the control(probably), or remote ( less likely- much more involved and expensive). I HATE setting VTA, and I have always thought it would be really nice to adjust it WHILE listening. Once the right height is found, some kind of set screw could be tightened up. My Teres seems like a perfect place to try to integrate this feature. Any of you turntable nuts, I mean designers have any thoughts on this? Steve Tag Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase - There is another VTA available Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 20:14:08 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com Thanks again, Kal. OK, I've pondered this. While implying no criticism of the concept, Kal's dingus is not what I had in mind. While it does appear that Kal's post mount is the most secure of that configuration available, his device, like the others I've seen, still raises the post, not the post mounting. Which brings me back to one of my original questions. Is VTA set and forget for any individual cart? It is a comparatively simple matter to make the armboard adjustable if you only have to do it once in a while. If it needs to be done on a routine basis (see previous comments about mounting nut accessibility) that is an entirely different kettle of fish. I've dreamed up a pair of teflon surfaced inclined planes with a captive turnbuckle w/thumbscrew to raise/lower the entire assembly, but don't want to go to the trouble if it's not necessary. I would also raise the assembly to perhaps an undesirable height, though my present intent already has the platter raised 2.75". Comments? Peter C ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kalman Rubinson" To: Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase - There is another VTA available > On Fri, 31 Mar 2000, phclark wrote: > > > I also suspect that, everything else being equal, it would be preferable to > > adjust the entire arm board assembly for height, rather than just the arm > > itself. Kal mentioned that he had doped out something to achieve this with > > some facility. Unfortunately, I had to format my hard drive just as all > > that was flying by and have missed any conclusions that might have been > > drawn. Did Al post drawings, etc.? I remember he was emphatically not > > proposing to go into business with this item... > > I sent Chris the .jps but haven't heard a response. > > BTW, my machinist might be willing to make these but he has > not come up with a price to make it worth while. > > Kal > > Subject: Re: [teres] :VTA adjustment Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 02:10:44 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Steve, Peter, Ken Schei & I ran up some bytes early on in the project discussing (let's say dreaming about)the possibility of using a Velleman remote control kit to motorize VTA adjustment from the listening seat. (Ken had been thinking of remote control of his preamp volume using the same kit.) I believe that is the most accurate way to do that. The accuracy of the VTA setting will change with the thickness of the record. As resetting for individual records is a PITA without a system that makes it easy to do, I've lived with an averaged setting that I generally don't fool with, much as I would like to trim it to match for the best sound. For that reason, my early sketches of a VTA adjusting base took in the possibility of adding the remote control in the future, with adjustment originally effected manually (obviously, this could not be done from the listening seat). To avoid the need to access the arm locknut, and provide the most solid attachment I could envision, I designed it as an adjustable *base*, with no adjustment of the arm once mounted. The height is set by a pair of angled slides, along the same lines as Peter envisioned below, with the return/tensioning function handled by a heavy rubber retainer (to avoid the use of springs), such as a piece of black EPDM bungee cord section. A pair of set bolts would complete the lockdown/"tighten-up", and would be applied to the sliding section carrying the arm. The device was meant to be machined out of aluminum, and needs some space (as in height), which our 3" high platter may or may not provide enough of. The project stalled at the point of my requesting some dimensions of the Rega arm of one of our guys who agreed to do some measuring, but that never happened, and now I've run completely out of time to work on this, though if I could get the dimensions, I might attempt it yet if I find a few minutes of time somewhere. That, and not the need for drawing facilities is what actually stalled this, as previously reported, though a better drawing program wouldn't hurt. I do wonder about the practicality of doing this, though, as this would be more complex than any of the other designs, and the machining could *only* be practical if produced en masse. Fortunately, both the already existing $40 dollar unit on the Artech site or Kal's design look like they could serve just fine, even if they don't look like they will do quite everything I could wish for, assuming that it is possible at all to fit what I have in mind into the space available, which I just don't know yet. And there are the Origin Live & Express machining versions as well. My reservations wrt the devices I've seen so far is the same as Peter's, that the post height gets the adjustment, which suggests a loss of mounting solidity & coupling (although the Artech version looks fairly effective). Also, I have concerns with the need for access to the locknut, and the inconvenience and difficulty (depending somewhat on individual chassis realizations as well as which adjuster is used) of having to do that. I'm not fond of the idea of applying a locknut to the threaded portion of the arm shaft, either, that someone mentioned. Igor --- Stephen Tag wrote: > > I've been imagining an adjustable armboard with the > adjustments done by some > kind of servo motor and a wire to the > control(probably), or remote ( less > likely- much more involved and expensive). I HATE > setting VTA, and I have > always thought it would be really nice to adjust it > WHILE listening. Once > the right height is found, some kind of set screw > could be tightened up. My > Teres seems like a perfect place to try to integrate > this feature. Any of > you turntable nuts, I mean designers have any > thoughts on this? > > Steve Tag > >Thanks again, Kal. > >OK, I've pondered this. While implying no criticism >of the concept, Kal's dingus is not what I had in >mind. While it does appear that Kal's post >mount is the most secure of that configuration >available, his device, like the others I've seen, >still raises the post, not the post mounting. > >Which brings me back to one of my original >questions. Is VTA set and forget for any individual >cart? It is a comparatively simple matter to make the >armboard adjustable if you only have to do it once in >a while. If it needs to be done on a routine basis >(see previous comments about mounting nut >accessibility) that is an entirely different kettle >of fish. >I've dreamed up a pair of teflon surfaced inclined >planes with a captive turnbuckle w/thumbscrew to >raise/lower the entire assembly, but don't want >to go to the trouble if it's not necessary. I would >also raise the assembly to perhaps an undesirable >height, though my present intent already has the >platter raised 2.75". >Comments? > >Peter C __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] :VTA adjustment Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 02:44:25 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com Thanks, Igor. Q: After the gross arm board height is set, what is your guess about the useful range of pivot height adjustment required? .25"? .375"? These are pretty small arcs on a 10" pivot, would that be enough? If that's the case, the adjuster may not need to be prohibitively tall, since the "shims" themselves wouldn't need to be that high. I'll power up my cad program and see if I can do some intelligible drawings. BTW, I like to couch potato as much as the next guy (I've got a preamp in the works with a motorized pot,) but I suspect a remote is gilding the lily, apart from *really* making things complex with another power supply for the remote, the motor, mechanical linkage (can't use pneumatic unless the assembly was prohibitively heavy, you're just adding another spring,) a limiter so that you don't go out of adjustment range from across the room... The drawbacks abound. It might well prove to be preferable to have a small variety of thicknesses of record mats to compensate for the small variations of vinyl thickness, once an "average" VTA setting has been achieved, rather than constantly messing with the mechanicals of the system. Dunno. My $0.02. Peter C ----- Original Message ----- From: "Igor Kuznetsoff" To: Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 1:10 AM Subject: Re: [teres] :VTA adjustment > Steve, Peter, > Ken Schei & I ran up some bytes early on > in the project discussing (let's say dreaming > about)the possibility of using a Velleman remote > control kit to motorize VTA adjustment from the > listening seat. (Ken had been thinking of remote > control of his preamp volume using the same kit.) I > believe that is the most accurate way to do that. The > accuracy of the VTA setting will change with the > thickness of the record. As resetting for individual > records is a PITA without a system that makes it easy > to do, I've lived with an averaged setting that I > generally don't fool with, much as I would like to > trim it to match for the best sound. > For that reason, my early sketches of a VTA > adjusting base took in the possibility of adding the > remote control in the future, with adjustment > originally effected manually (obviously, this could > not be done from the listening seat). To avoid the > need to access the arm locknut, and provide the most > solid attachment I could envision, I designed it as an > adjustable *base*, with no adjustment of the arm once > mounted. The height is set by a pair of angled > slides, along the same lines as Peter envisioned > below, with the return/tensioning function handled by > a heavy rubber retainer (to avoid the use of springs), > such as a piece of black EPDM bungee cord section. A > pair of set bolts would complete the > lockdown/"tighten-up", and would be applied to the > sliding section carrying the arm. The device was > meant to be machined out of aluminum, and needs some > space (as in height), which our 3" high platter may or > may not provide enough of. The project stalled at the > point of my requesting some dimensions of the Rega arm > of one of our guys who agreed to do some measuring, > but that never happened, and now I've run completely > out of time to work on this, though if I could get the > dimensions, I might attempt it yet if I find a few > minutes of time somewhere. That, and not the need for > drawing facilities is what actually stalled this, as > previously reported, though a better drawing program > wouldn't hurt. I do wonder about the practicality of > doing this, though, as this would be more complex than > any of the other designs, and the machining could > *only* be practical if produced en masse. > Fortunately, both the already existing $40 dollar > unit on the Artech site or Kal's design look like they > could serve just fine, even if they don't look like > they will do quite everything I could wish for, > assuming that it is possible at all to fit what I have > in mind into the space available, which I just don't > know yet. And there are the Origin Live & Express > machining versions as well. My reservations wrt the > devices I've seen so far is the same as Peter's, that > the post height gets the adjustment, which suggests a > loss of mounting solidity & coupling (although the > Artech version looks fairly effective). Also, I have > concerns with the need for access to the locknut, and > the inconvenience and difficulty (depending somewhat > on individual chassis realizations as well as which > adjuster is used) of having to do that. I'm not fond > of the idea of applying a locknut to the threaded > portion of the arm shaft, either, that someone > mentioned. > > Igor > > --- Stephen Tag wrote: > > > > I've been imagining an adjustable armboard with the > > adjustments done by some > > kind of servo motor and a wire to the > > control(probably), or remote ( less > > likely- much more involved and expensive). I HATE > > setting VTA, and I have > > always thought it would be really nice to adjust it > > WHILE listening. Once > > the right height is found, some kind of set screw > > could be tightened up. My > > Teres seems like a perfect place to try to integrate > > this feature. Any of > > you turntable nuts, I mean designers have any > > thoughts on this? > > > > Steve Tag > > > >Thanks again, Kal. > > > >OK, I've pondered this. While implying no criticism > >of the concept, Kal's dingus is not what I had in > >mind. While it does appear that Kal's post > >mount is the most secure of that configuration > >available, his device, like the others I've seen, > >still raises the post, not the post mounting. > > > >Which brings me back to one of my original > >questions. Is VTA set and forget for any individual > >cart? It is a comparatively simple matter to make > the > >armboard adjustable if you only have to do it once in > >a while. If it needs to be done on a routine basis > >(see previous comments about mounting nut > >accessibility) that is an entirely different kettle > >of fish. > >I've dreamed up a pair of teflon surfaced inclined > >planes with a captive turnbuckle w/thumbscrew to > >raise/lower the entire assembly, but don't want > >to go to the trouble if it's not necessary. I would > >also raise the assembly to perhaps an undesirable > >height, though my present intent already has the > >platter raised 2.75". > >Comments? > > > >Peter C > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > Subject: RE: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment - I want in! Please!! Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 07:19:27 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com Hi Bob & fellow teresists, I want to participate in the Rega O/L Group Purchase. I want... 1 ea Rega 250b Arm 145.94 1 ea Structural Mod 75.31 1 ea Internal Wire 70.29 1 ea External Wire 70.29 Bob, are the Plugs mentioned for $20.08 only needed if we DO NOT get the external wire mod? I guess what I am asking, is what are they used for? If I need them (it) I would like to order them (it). Otherwise, I'd like to keep the twenty bucks in my pocket. Let me know if I need them, please. Ship to... Paul Croft 1457 Old Elk Neck Road Elkton, MD 21921 Bob, you will receive the required 361.83 (or 382.12), plus shipping, before April 18. Also, I would be glad to accept the responsibility of receiving/repackaging and reshipping the arms in the USA. Let me know the details. Thank you very much for your help on this, Bob Cheers, Paul Croft > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Bob.Obo > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 9:55 PM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment > > > Hiya Folks... below is the scoop on the Rega Arms. > (The ole sniparoo...) Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment - I want in! Please!! Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 08:14:04 -0700 From: Bob.Obo, Bob.Obo To: teres@aiko.com Hiya Paul, Thanks for the email... you are in! I haven't been in vinyl land for awhile, but I believe these are simple phono plugs that connect the external wire to the pre-amp. Here is O/L's description on the "Phone Plug" "Replaces brass phono plugs with Aluminium phono plugs – Over twice as conductive as brass and very audibly so (beware there are look-alikes for this particular plug that are only brass). When one considers that silver is only 1.06 times as conductive as copper it is easily appreciated that this is significant improvement. The quality of phono plugs is often overlooked in the pursuit of ever higher standards of cable, but plugs have a surprising influence! It is well known that even 2.5cm of cable exerts it’s own sonic signature almost as much as 5 metres of the same - the brass phono is all part of the cable! Add £20 Improvement = 6%" For me... I will likely direct connect / solder for a better connection than any plug AND have 20 skinolas in my pocket (That's $30 Canadian... movie and a large popcorn!) Also, thanks for your offer to re-ship the arms. One fellow has volunteered; I will put you into the batter's box should he decline. I hope this helps. Best regards, Bill (Bob.Obo) -----Original Message----- From: Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 5:20 AM Subject: RE: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment - I want in! Please!! >Hi Bob & fellow teresists, >I want to participate in the Rega O/L Group Purchase. >I want... > 1 ea Rega 250b Arm 145.94 > 1 ea Structural Mod 75.31 > 1 ea Internal Wire 70.29 > 1 ea External Wire 70.29 > >Bob, are the Plugs mentioned for $20.08 only needed if we DO NOT get the >external wire mod? I guess what I am asking, is what are they used for? If I >need them (it) I would like to order them (it). Otherwise, I'd like to keep >the twenty bucks in my pocket. Let me know if I need them, please. > >Ship to... > Paul Croft > 1457 Old Elk Neck Road > Elkton, MD 21921 > >Bob, you will receive the required 361.83 (or 382.12), plus shipping, before >April 18. > >Also, I would be glad to accept the responsibility of receiving/repackaging >and reshipping the arms in the USA. Let me know the details. > >Thank you very much for your help on this, Bob >Cheers, >Paul Croft > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of >> Bob.Obo >> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 9:55 PM >> To: teres@aiko.com >> Subject: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment >> >> >> Hiya Folks... below is the scoop on the Rega Arms. >> >(The ole sniparoo...) > > Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase - There is another VTA available Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 08:57:10 -0700 From: Kalman Rubinson, Kalman Rubinson To: teres@aiko.com On Fri, 31 Mar 2000, phclark wrote: > OK, I've pondered this. While implying no criticism of the concept, Kal's > dingus is not what I had in mind. While it does appear that Kal's post > mount is the most secure of that configuration available, his device, like > the others I've seen, still raises the post, not the post mounting. You are right and that is because the design of the dovetail was made to fit the SME cutout and could not be made larger. If one eliminates that constraint, the insert could be threaded oon the outer surface and made more robust. Another way. Kal Subject: Re: [teres] :VTA adjustment Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:40:29 -0700 From: Stephen Tag, Stephen Tag To: teres@aiko.com I'm not thinking of doing this out of laziness; I know it would be easier to get VTA "just right" while doing uninterupted listening and cranking it up or down just tiny bits. We've all read the reviews where the VTA was adjusted a tiny bit and suddenly everything snapped into place and sounded amazing. I'd love to be able to do that. Now I'm thinking of a detachable cable; maybe an outboard motor steering cable, a totally mechanical system with a gear machined into or attached to the collar for the armboard. Twisting the other end with a handle , I could make minute adjustments while listening. Forget the remote. Of course the weight and rigidity of the cable will screw things up for the armboard, but it will be only temporary while the adjusting is being done. The whole thing would then be taken off and stored with the other TT adjusting tools. I'm NOT going to adjust for every record, what a nightmare! Just get it set for the average thickness disc and go with that. I'm going to build with the armboard accessable top and bottom, to be ready for experiments with this VTA thing. I have a buddy with a small machine shop in his basement, so I should be able to work some of this stuff out. I'll let you guys know what I come up with. I forgot how much fun this stuff could be; using the imagination and designing cool toys. At least we've gotten our brains off the couch! Steve Tag >BTW, I like to couch potato as much as the next guy (I've got a preamp in >the works with a motorized pot,) but I suspect a remote is gilding the lily, >apart from *really* making things complex with another power supply for the >remote, the motor, mechanical linkage (can't use pneumatic unless the >assembly was prohibitively heavy, you're just adding another spring,) a >limiter so that you don't go out of adjustment range from across the room... >The drawbacks abound. > Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:59:54 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com Bill, I want to participate in the Rega O/L Group Purchase. I want: Arm $145.94 Structural Mod $75.31 Internal Wire $70.29 External Wire $70.29 Ship to: Chris Brady 2190 Snowmass Cr Broomfield, CO 80020 Subject: Re: [teres] Bases and Vibration Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 14:54:41 -0700 From: Stanley Goudge, Stanley Goudge To: teres@aiko.com; teres@aiko.com Hi Steve, The new & free copy of TAS finally crawled into my mail box. I was little disappointed that the author left a number of stones unturned, but what does one expect these days of digital dominance. My take on the article is about 75% in favor of my ideal, the platter is damped metal,the suchassis is damped metal and the armboard does include metal. With Sota's large subchassis design I agree with their choice of armboard design, as in a rigid closed loop design the subchassis/armboard should be small to avoid the lower feq. resonances, which are larger in amplitude and harder to control, making the lossy/sink armboard more compatible with a wider range of tonearm/cart. designs. The subchassis is very interesting, haven't we seen this type of damping in platters were holes filled with lead surrounding the platter. Of course the next thing that comes to mind, is to combine CLD with this type of damping for a subchassis/armboard design. Hey lets call it ILD/CLD for in layer damping + constrained layer damping, or maybe DD for double damped. Enough, this subject is too damping. Now, I have a totally new idea that's echoing (undampable) between my ears and it relates to the idea of combining isolation with damping. Picture (Spj style) a long (17"L x 6"Wx 4"D) rectangle/inverted pyramid shaped subchassis, which floats in thick silicon fluid contained in a matched V shaped trough. The fluid can be contained by using Microsorb (a thin compliant damping sheet ref. page 18 on catalog link) as a constrained gasket covering and bridging the subchassis and trough. Thin metal plates can be used to screw (constrain) the Micosorb in place around the chassis assembly. In addition to functioning as a gasket it would also provide CLD as well. The platter would need to be close to center to balance the assembly. A much simplified version would eliminate the silicon fluid and just use the Microsorb in pads or strips between the two surfaces. The V shape combines self centering stability and internal energy diffusion as we have discussed previously. Plus, combined with silicon fluid, isolation is provided in all 3 axis! What a deal and I didn't even mention choice of materials. Stan http://www.bainbridge.net/percyaudio/ At 08:34 AM 3/29/2000 -0700, Steve Zettel wrote: >Hi all, > >I just read in great detail the TAS article about the Sota Millenia, the >aluminum chassis turntable brought up in support of the "rigid, metallic, >but critically-damped" school of thought. I'd urge anyone really >interested in this to read the article for themselves. Given the >construction detail of chassis, and particularly about the armboard, it >does not appear that Sota subscribes to the essence of these arguments. At >least that is my reading. But please, form your own opinions. > >Best, > >Steve Z > Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase I want in!Please!!Me too Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 17:29:01 -0700 From: Bob, Bob To: teres@aiko.com Can new subscribers get in on the action? -Bob Purkiewicz Paul Croft wrote: > Hi Bob & fellow teresists, > I want to participate in the Rega O/L Group Purchase. > I want... > 1 ea Rega 250b Arm 145.94 > 1 ea Structural Mod 75.31 > 1 ea Internal Wire 70.29 > 1 ea External Wire 70.29 > > Bob, are the Plugs mentioned for $20.08 only needed if we DO NOT get the > external wire mod? I guess what I am asking, is what are they used for? If I > need them (it) I would like to order them (it). Otherwise, I'd like to keep > the twenty bucks in my pocket. Let me know if I need them, please. > > Ship to... > Paul Croft > 1457 Old Elk Neck Road > Elkton, MD 21921 > > Bob, you will receive the required 361.83 (or 382.12), plus shipping, before > April 18. > > Also, I would be glad to accept the responsibility of receiving/repackaging > and reshipping the arms in the USA. Let me know the details. > > Thank you very much for your help on this, Bob > Cheers, > Paul Croft > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > > Bob.Obo > > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 9:55 PM > > To: teres@aiko.com > > Subject: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment > > > > > > Hiya Folks... below is the scoop on the Rega Arms. > > > (The ole sniparoo...) Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase I want in!Please!!Me too Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 18:38:24 -0700 From: Bob.Obo, Bob.Obo To: teres@aiko.com Hello Bob, That is OK with me; the more the better.... anyone else feel differently? This "Call for Committment" to purchase is exactly what it says and requires, even demands, a degree of confidence and follow though. Just think if we got 20 people (the minimum required for a group buy); 19 sent their cheques and one skipped! This is not directed at you Bob, but everyone, including me, who is considering involvement in this group buy.... er did I say welcome to the group yet??? Best regards, Bill -----Original Message----- From: Bob To: teres@aiko.com Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase I want in!Please!!Me too >Can new subscribers get in on the action? >-Bob Purkiewicz > >Paul Croft wrote: > >> Hi Bob & fellow teresists, >> I want to participate in the Rega O/L Group Purchase. >> I want... >> 1 ea Rega 250b Arm 145.94 >> 1 ea Structural Mod 75.31 >> 1 ea Internal Wire 70.29 >> 1 ea External Wire 70.29 >> >> Bob, are the Plugs mentioned for $20.08 only needed if we DO NOT get the >> external wire mod? I guess what I am asking, is what are they used for? If I >> need them (it) I would like to order them (it). Otherwise, I'd like to keep >> the twenty bucks in my pocket. Let me know if I need them, please. >> >> Ship to... >> Paul Croft >> 1457 Old Elk Neck Road >> Elkton, MD 21921 >> >> Bob, you will receive the required 361.83 (or 382.12), plus shipping, before >> April 18. >> >> Also, I would be glad to accept the responsibility of receiving/repackaging >> and reshipping the arms in the USA. Let me know the details. >> >> Thank you very much for your help on this, Bob >> Cheers, >> Paul Croft >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of >> > Bob.Obo >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 9:55 PM >> > To: teres@aiko.com >> > Subject: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment >> > >> > >> > Hiya Folks... below is the scoop on the Rega Arms. >> > >> (The ole sniparoo...) > > Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 16:39:38 -0700 From: Anya & Fred Humphrey, Anya & Fred Humphrey To: teres@aiko.com Hi, Bob I want everything in your message. In other words, RB250 arm structural mods internal rewiring external rewiring plugs. Please ship to: Fred Humphrey 4225 Fly Road Campden, Ontario L0R 1G0 Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob.Obo" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 10:55 PM Subject: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment > Hiya Folks... below is the scoop on the Rega Arms. > > The information in this email supercedes all previous emails and is the only > basis for your participation. Please read all the information carefully. > > ACTION REQUIRED: > If you want to participate in a Rega Group Purchase you must identify the > arm/mods you want and commit to your purchase by noon Monday, April 3, 2000 > by email to the list server teres. You email must read... > > I want to participate in the Rega O/L Group Purchase. > I want...[arm model/mods] > Ship to...[name/shipping address] > > If you have further questions ask ASAP and we will try to answer ASAP! > > "Estimated" Timeline... add grain of salt! > > Order Deadline April 3, 2000 > Group Purchase Viability April 3, 2000 > Develop Cost April 4, 2000 > Send Money for Purchase to "Teres Distribution Agent" April 18, 2000 > Send Money to O/L April 19, 2000 > O/L Receive Money April 29, 2000 > O/L Processing Completed May 14, 2000 > O/L Shipment Received June 7, 2000 > Reshipped June 10, 2000 > Received June 24, 2000 > > Shipping from Great Britain to the drop location is $5.80US for each arm. > The arms will then be repackaged and reshipped at an additional expense to > the purchaser. Any additional cost for packaging will be determined later. > As I live in Canada, an additional 14% plus duty (2-4%) will be added to the > final purchase price if you want me to ship. > > However, the additional taxes if shipped to the USA are zero. While I have > moved this process along, I do not think shipping these arms to Canada for > me to reship is cost effective and would entertain someone in the USA > stepping in for this part. However, I would be pleased to do the shipping > via Canada if the group so desires. > > ACTION REQUIRED: Will anyone accept the responsibility of > receiving/repackaging and reshipping the arms? No Chris... down boy. > > Prices reflect NO VAT, payment to O/L will be in USD > No unmodified arms can be purchased from Origin Live (see email from O/L > below) > Single Group (20) > Arm $145.94 $145.94 > Structural Mod $100.42 $75.31 > Internal Wire $93.72 $70.29 > External Wire $93.72 $70.29 > Plugs $26.78 $20.08 > > ***Note*** these prices are approximate and will be adjusted for currency > fluctuations once the bulk order is deemed viable. > > > Origin/Live's response to recent email > > ***Quote/Copy begins*** > Mark Baker > > Tel: 01703 442183 > Fax: 01703 398905 > E-mail: origin.live@virgin.net > Web Site: http://www.originlive.com > > REGA GROUP PURCHASE QUESTIONS > #1. Can an unmodded arm be bought from O/L if a REGA dealer is available > nearby... what is nearby? > > As mentioned previously we do not sell unmodified arms for a number of good > reasons. > > > #2. Does the discount apply to the Rega VTA? Does the discount apply to > cartridges? > > [it applies to the VTA but not cartridges as we have no margin to play with > since we do not manufacture cartridges] > > > #3. How long is OL internal wire coming out of a tonearm tube? > > [ the internal wire does not exit the bottom of the arm base as it is > soldered internally to the external wire at the base plug] ... > > Can someone order an extra long length so they could connect this internal > wire to their pre-amp...if yes, the cost is? > > [Yes they can - at an extra cost of £10 for any length. ] > > There seems to be an idea going around at present that continuous wires are > an advantage - we have tried this and can only comment as follows... > The external screened cable we use is better than the internal wiring. > Internal wires must be very thin to avoid arm friction and are thus a > compromise - external cabling is uncompromised and the benefits of optimized > design far outweigh the benefits of avoiding a hard wired joint (hard wiring > is nothing like as degrading as contact joints or brass connectors etc. The > other problems of using the internal wiring externally is that the wires > should be configured at a set distance apart and screening is very costly. > Put another way - the ideal, is to request that the external cable is > continued all the way to the headshell (which is not possible of course due > to friction problems). Hopefully this may clarify that in our experience the > compromise cable is the internal wiring not the external and as said before > the joint is relatively insignificant in comparison to the effect of the > type of wire used (even over short lengths). > > $4. Would all the arms be shipped bulk to one location or can one (some) be > shipped individually to different locations and still receive the discount? > > [ individually shipped arms would each carry a £9 carriage charge] > > > #5. THE TRANSACTION... > Would the entire amount for the group purchase be required before work > began? > How long would an order of 20 arms require... the structural mod, internal > and external rewiring? > Are the orders payed in US dollars or British Pounds? Do you take VISA ? > > [ we would require advance payment. The time would be approx 4 days of work. > It may take up to 10 days to get hold of the Rega arms as we do not have > quite this quantity in stock at present. US dollars or UK pounds GBP are > fine - please see not below > > METHODS OF PAYMENT > a) Direct transfer to our bank (bank charges can be pricey see details > below). > b) Money order, or cashiers cheque ( By far the least expensive method). > c) Eurocheque. > d) Cash in £ pounds sterling sent in insured letter. > e) Send signed travellers cheques > > If you wish to pay in American dollars or convert from other currencies, > please multiply prices by factors found in up to date foreign currency > conversion site at http://www.xe.net/currency/ > > We ourselves do not take credit cards at this time. > > Make any cheques and payments out to "Origin Live" and send to address as > follows > Origin Live, 87 Chessel Crescent, Bitterne, Southampton SO19 4BT UK > > If you wire a money transfer direct through your bank, then our bank details > are as follows (your bank will explain the procedure):- > Barclays Bank > Bitterne, Southampton Group, > PO Box 2, Southampton > SO14 2SB > UK > > Bank Sort Code 20-79-29 Account No 80251100 > > We look forward to hearing from you. > > ***Quote/Copy Ends*** > > That's all folks! > Bill > Subject: Re: [teres] Rega Group Purchase - Last Day Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:35:14 -0700 From: Bob.Obo, Bob.Obo To: teres@aiko.com Hello, Currently there are 8 folks involved in the Rega Group Purchase. The project required 20 participants minimum. Here is the official "order form" information... ACTION REQUIRED: If you want to participate in a Rega Group Purchase you must identify the arm/mods you want and commit to your purchase by noon Monday, April 3, 2000 by email to the list server teres. You email must read... I want to participate in the Rega O/L Group Purchase. I want...[arm model/mods] Ship to...[name/shipping address] If you have further questions ask ASAP and we will try to answer ASAP! "Estimated" Timeline... add grain of salt! Order Deadline April 3, 2000 Group Purchase Viability April 3, 2000 Develop Cost April 4, 2000 Send Money for Purchase to "Teres Distribution Agent" April 18, 2000 Send Money to O/L April 19, 2000 O/L Receive Money April 29, 2000 O/L Processing Completed May 14, 2000 O/L Shipment Received June 7, 2000 Reshipped June 10, 2000 Received June 24, 2000 Shipping from Great Britain to the drop location is $5.80US for each arm. The arms will then be repackaged and reshipped at an additional expense to the purchaser. Any additional cost for packaging will be determined later. As I live in Canada, an additional 14% plus duty (2-4%) will be added to the final purchase price if you want me to ship. However, the additional taxes if shipped to the USA are zero. While I have moved this process along, I do not think shipping these arms to Canada for me to reship is cost effective and would entertain someone in the USA stepping in for this part. However, I would be pleased to do the shipping via Canada if the group so desires. ACTION REQUIRED: Will anyone accept the responsibility of receiving/repackaging and reshipping the arms? No Chris... down boy. Prices reflect NO VAT, payment to O/L will be in USD No unmodified arms can be purchased from Origin Live (see email from O/L below) Single Group (20) Arm $145.94 $145.94 Structural Mod $100.42 $75.31 Internal Wire $93.72 $70.29 External Wire $93.72 $70.29 Plugs $26.78 $20.08 ***Note*** these prices are approximate and will be adjusted for currency fluctuations once the bulk order is deemed viable. Origin/Live's response to recent email ***Quote/Copy begins*** Mark Baker Tel: 01703 442183 Fax: 01703 398905 E-mail: origin.live@virgin.net Web Site: http://www.originlive.com REGA GROUP PURCHASE QUESTIONS #1. Can an unmodded arm be bought from O/L if a REGA dealer is available nearby... what is nearby? As mentioned previously we do not sell unmodified arms for a number of good reasons. #2. Does the discount apply to the Rega VTA? Does the discount apply to cartridges? [it applies to the VTA but not cartridges as we have no margin to play with since we do not manufacture cartridges] #3. How long is OL internal wire coming out of a tonearm tube? [ the internal wire does not exit the bottom of the arm base as it is soldered internally to the external wire at the base plug] ... Can someone order an extra long length so they could connect this internal wire to their pre-amp...if yes, the cost is? [Yes they can - at an extra cost of £10 for any length. ] There seems to be an idea going around at present that continuous wires are an advantage - we have tried this and can only comment as follows... The external screened cable we use is better than the internal wiring. Internal wires must be very thin to avoid arm friction and are thus a compromise - external cabling is uncompromised and the benefits of optimized design far outweigh the benefits of avoiding a hard wired joint (hard wiring is nothing like as degrading as contact joints or brass connectors etc. The other problems of using the internal wiring externally is that the wires should be configured at a set distance apart and screening is very costly. Put another way - the ideal, is to request that the external cable is continued all the way to the headshell (which is not possible of course due to friction problems). Hopefully this may clarify that in our experience the compromise cable is the internal wiring not the external and as said before the joint is relatively insignificant in comparison to the effect of the type of wire used (even over short lengths). $4. Would all the arms be shipped bulk to one location or can one (some) be shipped individually to different locations and still receive the discount? [ individually shipped arms would each carry a £9 carriage charge] #5. THE TRANSACTION... Would the entire amount for the group purchase be required before work began? How long would an order of 20 arms require... the structural mod, internal and external rewiring? Are the orders payed in US dollars or British Pounds? Do you take VISA ? [ we would require advance payment. The time would be approx 4 days of work. It may take up to 10 days to get hold of the Rega arms as we do not have quite this quantity in stock at present. US dollars or UK pounds GBP are fine - please see not below METHODS OF PAYMENT a) Direct transfer to our bank (bank charges can be pricey see details below). b) Money order, or cashiers cheque ( By far the least expensive method). c) Eurocheque. d) Cash in £ pounds sterling sent in insured letter. e) Send signed travellers cheques If you wish to pay in American dollars or convert from other currencies, please multiply prices by factors found in up to date foreign currency conversion site at http://www.xe.net/currency/ We ourselves do not take credit cards at this time. Make any cheques and payments out to "Origin Live" and send to address as follows Origin Live, 87 Chessel Crescent, Bitterne, Southampton SO19 4BT UK If you wire a money transfer direct through your bank, then our bank details are as follows (your bank will explain the procedure):- Barclays Bank Bitterne, Southampton Group, PO Box 2, Southampton SO14 2SB UK Bank Sort Code 20-79-29 Account No 80251100 We look forward to hearing from you. ***Quote/Copy Ends*** That's all folks! Bill Subject: Re: [teres] :VTA adjustment Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 00:52:52 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Peter, As the largest difference between the thickness of records is certainly less than .25", the range would really be more dependent on preplanning the range of allowable mat thickness, starting with none at all. Your upper number should handle all likelihoods, I would guess. I did not get as far as working out any numbers, putting this aside until I had dimensions to work with. On a 10" pivot, the arc generated & overhang correction would indeed be very small, possibly smaller than everyday cartridge mounting inaccuracies. My initial thought on that was simply to design enough range via elongated or oversized slots into the VTA base (which in this case would be the armboard as well)-to-chassis mounting holes. This detail may not be as elegant as Kal's nice looking dovetailed design, but would do the job. Perhaps Kal, or someone who has worked out the numbers already, could help out here. No shims would be necessary for initial adjustment in my concept. The idea of an assortment of mat sizes is intriguing, but runs into the problem of what to use, which is a big question in itself, and then further runs into the problem of how to get it in an assortment of sizes varying by only thousandths of an inch, and that to spec. I do agree with you that adding a remote is likely to be too much of a complication, even if I really don't see its power supply as much of a difficulty. The mechanical linkage may be more of a cost problem. The problem of where to stop with the temptation of mechanization might be something to think about. The Velleman system offers more than one control channel, which then just begs that advantage be taken of that, so we may as well try to activate the cueing lift remotely, as well...Anyway, an intriguing dream, but, well, it *is* possible...And the possibility of using a position sensor to facilitate repeatable presets to quick adjust for favorite record thicknesses... But, back down to Earth, my idea involves the use of a "U" shaped base with vertical slotting inside (performing a similar function to Kal's dovetail, only in vertical orientation) which would locate/carry a (vertically) sliding arm mounting block. The vertical location of that block would be adjusted via the use of the aforementioned paired, horizontally oriented, tapered slides set within the base of the "U" shape, and pushing the sliding arm mounting block up as necessary via compression by a threaded screw (the part that motorization would be applied to if a remote were to be added, possibly, *weeeeeell* in the future..?..). The return is handled by a simple strap made, most likely, out of a section of EPDM rubber which can be cut from one of those common heavy duty black strap-shaped bungee cords, to avoid the use of springs. The EPDM rubber is much quieter internally than any spring would be. Or maybe some O rings, I haven't worked out that detail completely yet. After adjustment, a pair of set bolts located through the wings of the "U" base on either side of the sliding arm mount block would complete the lockdown/"tighten-up" quickly and conveniently, if bolts not requiring tools are used. These could be as simple and cheap as (a clunky) pair of common bolts, or as elegant and ergonomic as custom machined wing bolts with large lever shaped handles. The height adjustment screw could be matched to these, and simply replaced if and when motorization were realized (, if ever). Or a vernier calibrated dial could be mounted on the threaded shaft to facilitate more easily repeated resetting & adjustment. A matching extension could be made for the bottom of the base, in order to carry mechanical grounding of the arm through in a direct path, using all one material, to whatever the TT system is sited on . This may or may not be of interest to those who are into the arm to platter direct vibration loop design concept, unless they *also* want to ground the noise somewhere. I intend to ground both the arm and bearing directly into a sand mix ( or whatever else I choose to experiment with), using a *rigid* but noise suppressive chassis between the two, and this is *not* an invitation for a 10,000 word attack upon my choice of concepts. Do what you want, everybody, but have respect for individual choices. I am confident of my approach, and do not mind if I come out ahead on my own. Or not, at the will of my muse. I do certainly and absolutely know that *following* trends accomplishes no advances, as one cannot lead by following, and it is clear to me that my concepts, in that regard, are not understood, as I never found the time , *or clear space*, to explain them fully. Nor will I at this point, it is not worth it to me, I might as well "keep" something, and am far too short of time now to get into it, knowing that I might have to spend every waking minute of the following week just to "defend" my ideas from one or two particularly vocal members insistent on their own views. I do not seek to "lead" anyone, anyway, my best audio results have always been due to my maverick character, and willingness to think and try what is beyond and outside the trends. We should all be able to discuss and do what appeals to us, without running into a vituperative browbeating. A drawing I sent privately to Thom shows a rough mockup of what I have in mind. This is worth mentioning only because that drawing shows a detail which takes advantage of an interesting concept we designed into the bearing structure, which has not been mentioned lately, that I've noticed, and those not part of the original group may be unaware of, if they did not go through the old posts. It is worth being aware of. The bearing is designed to come drilled out at the bottom to accept a 1/4-20 thread, in order to mount a tiptoe/cone to facilitate direct grounding of the bearing. Make, or not, what you will of this. I want to make good use of this, and have it in mind to carry this concept through to the arm mounting as well, in order to ground noise as effectively as possible, and not by grounding the noise of either one to the other! In order to make the most of this , I figure on using a brass cone at the bottom of the bearing, and an aluminum one at the bottom of the aluminum VTA & arm assemblies, assuming that to be the most likely material for these. Point being, match the materials for the best conduction achievable, given the foibles of impedance reflections due to just about any kind of sudden shape discontinuity within any given part. I tried to rough out a sketch I could send along with this today, but just didn't have the time to complete it. Maybe in the next few days, maybe not. Igor --- phclark wrote: > Thanks, Igor. > > Q: After the gross arm board height is set, what is > your guess about the > useful range of pivot height adjustment required? > .25"? .375"? These are > pretty small arcs on a 10" pivot, would that be > enough? If that's the case, > the adjuster may not need to be prohibitively tall, > since the "shims" > themselves wouldn't need to be that high. I'll > power up my cad program and > see if I can do some intelligible drawings. > > BTW, I like to couch potato as much as the next guy > (I've got a preamp in > the works with a motorized pot,) but I suspect a > remote is gilding the lily, > apart from *really* making things complex with > another power supply for the > remote, the motor, mechanical linkage (can't use > pneumatic unless the > assembly was prohibitively heavy, you're just adding > another spring,) a > limiter so that you don't go out of adjustment range > from across the room... > The drawbacks abound. > > It might well prove to be preferable to have a small > variety of thicknesses > of record mats to compensate for the small > variations of vinyl thickness, > once an "average" VTA setting has been achieved, > rather than constantly > messing with the mechanicals of the system. Dunno. > > My $0.02. > > Peter C > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Igor Kuznetsoff" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 1:10 AM > Subject: Re: [teres] :VTA adjustment > > > > Steve, Peter, > > Ken Schei & I ran up some bytes early > on > > in the project discussing (let's say dreaming > > about)the possibility of using a Velleman remote > > control kit to motorize VTA adjustment from the > > listening seat. (Ken had been thinking of remote > > control of his preamp volume using the same kit.) > I > > believe that is the most accurate way to do that. > The > > accuracy of the VTA setting will change with the > > thickness of the record. As resetting for > individual > > records is a PITA without a system that makes it > easy > > to do, I've lived with an averaged setting that I > > generally don't fool with, much as I would like to > > trim it to match for the best sound. > > For that reason, my early sketches of a > VTA > > adjusting base took in the possibility of adding > the > > remote control in the future, with adjustment > > originally effected manually (obviously, this > could > > not be done from the listening seat). To avoid > the > > need to access the arm locknut, and provide the > most > > solid attachment I could envision, I designed it > as an > > adjustable *base*, with no adjustment of the arm > once > > mounted. The height is set by a pair of angled > > slides, along the same lines as Peter envisioned > > below, with the return/tensioning function handled > by > > a heavy rubber retainer (to avoid the use of > springs), > > such as a piece of black EPDM bungee cord section. > A > > pair of set bolts would complete the > > lockdown/"tighten-up", and would be applied to the > > sliding section carrying the arm. The device was > > meant to be machined out of aluminum, and needs > some > > space (as in height), which our 3" high platter > may or > > may not provide enough of. The project stalled at > the > > point of my requesting some dimensions of the Rega > arm > > of one of our guys who agreed to do some > measuring, > > but that never happened, and now I've run > completely > > out of time to work on this, though if I could get > the > > dimensions, I might attempt it yet if I find a few > > minutes of time somewhere. That, and not the need > for > > drawing facilities is what actually stalled this, > as > > previously reported, though a better drawing > program > > wouldn't hurt. I do wonder about the practicality > of > > doing this, though, as this would be more complex > than > > any of the other designs, and the machining could > > *only* be practical if produced en masse. > > Fortunately, both the already existing $40 > dollar > > unit on the Artech site or Kal's design look like > they > > could serve just fine, even if they don't look > like > > they will do quite everything I could wish for, > > assuming that it is possible at all to fit what I > have > > in mind into the space available, which I just > don't > > know yet. And there are the Origin Live & Express > > machining versions as well. My reservations wrt > the > > devices I've seen so far is the same as Peter's, > that > > the post height gets the adjustment, which > suggests a > > loss of mounting solidity & coupling (although the > > Artech version looks fairly effective). Also, I > have > > concerns with the need for access to the locknut, > and > > the inconvenience and difficulty (depending > somewhat > > on individual chassis realizations as well as > which > > adjuster is used) of having to do that. I'm not > fond > > of the idea of applying a locknut to the threaded > > portion of the arm shaft, either, that someone > > mentioned. > > > > Igor > > > > --- Stephen Tag wrote: > > > > > > I've been imagining an adjustable armboard with > the > > > adjustments done by some > > > kind of servo motor and a wire to the > > > control(probably), or remote ( less > > > likely- much more involved and expensive). I > HATE > > > setting VTA, and I have > > > always thought it would be really nice to adjust > it > > > WHILE listening. Once > > > the right height is found, some kind of set > screw > > > could be tightened up. My > > > Teres seems like a perfect place to try to > integrate > > > this feature. Any of > > > you turntable nuts, I mean designers have any > > > thoughts on this? > > > > > > Steve Tag > > > > > >Thanks again, Kal. > > > > > >OK, I've pondered this. While implying no > criticism > > >of the concept, Kal's dingus is not what I had in > > >mind. While it does appear that Kal's post > > >mount is the most secure of that configuration > > >available, his device, like the others I've seen, > > >still raises the post, not the post mounting. > > > > > >Which brings me back to one of my original > > >questions. Is VTA set and forget for any > individual > > >cart? It is a comparatively simple matter to > make > > the > > >armboard adjustable if you only have to do it > once in > > >a while. If it needs to be done on a routine > basis > > >(see previous comments about mounting nut > > >accessibility) that is an entirely different > kettle > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] :VTA adjustment (not really) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 06:01:55 -0700 From: Ivan Anderson, Ivan Anderson To: teres@aiko.com >... I intend to ground both the arm and > bearing directly into a sand mix ( or whatever else I > choose to experiment with)... Yes Igor, This sounds like a very good idea. I thought I might first try a 'heat sink' type base, as I have mentioned, with the blades embedded in sand. The blades extending to incorporate the tone arm and motor, in order to maintain a fixed relationship between them, but the top plate being cut out between these units. Adding direct grounding of the bearing also, should enhance this idea, one way or the other. BTW in posting this message to the list, I am soliciting replies. But if you don't wish to... god knows that there are messages I should have responded to, but couldn't, being a single dad, studying pharmacology at Auckland University, and welding stainless steel in my spare time (ha!) to earn a few bucks, so that I can invest double the cash as the rest of the world towards realising my dream turntable. ;-) Ivan. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Igor Kuznetsoff" To: Sent: Monday, 3 April 2000 18:47 Subject: Re: [teres] :VTA adjustment > Peter, > As the largest difference between the > thickness of records is certainly less than .25", the > range would really be more dependent on preplanning > the range of allowable mat thickness, starting with > none at all. Your upper number should handle all > likelihoods, I would guess. I did not get as far as > working out any numbers, putting this aside until I > had dimensions to work with. On a 10" pivot, the arc > generated & overhang correction would indeed be very > small, possibly smaller than everyday cartridge > mounting inaccuracies. My initial thought on that was > simply to design enough range via elongated or > oversized slots into the VTA base (which in this case > would be the armboard as well)-to-chassis mounting > holes. This detail may not be as elegant as Kal's > nice looking dovetailed design, but would do the job. > Perhaps Kal, or someone who has worked out the numbers > already, could help out here. No shims would be > necessary for initial adjustment in my concept. > The idea of an assortment of mat sizes is > intriguing, but runs into the problem of what to use, > which is a big question in itself, and then further > runs into the problem of how to get it in an > assortment of sizes varying by only thousandths of an > inch, and that to spec. I do agree with you that > adding a remote is likely to be too much of a > complication, even if I really don't see its power > supply as much of a difficulty. The mechanical > linkage may be more of a cost problem. The problem of > where to stop with the temptation of mechanization > might be something to think about. The Velleman > system offers more than one control channel, which > then just begs that advantage be taken of that, so we > may as well try to activate the cueing lift remotely, > as well...Anyway, an intriguing dream, but, well, it > *is* possible...And the possibility of using a > position sensor to facilitate repeatable presets to > quick adjust for favorite record thicknesses... > But, back down to Earth, my idea involves > the use of a "U" shaped base with vertical slotting > inside (performing a similar function to Kal's > dovetail, only in vertical orientation) which would > locate/carry a (vertically) sliding arm mounting > block. The vertical location of that block would be > adjusted via the use of the aforementioned paired, > horizontally oriented, tapered slides set within the > base of the "U" shape, and pushing the sliding arm > mounting block up as necessary via compression by a > threaded screw (the part that motorization would be > applied to if a remote were to be added, possibly, > *weeeeeell* in the future..?..). The return is > handled by a simple strap made, most likely, out of a > section of EPDM rubber which can be cut from one of > those common heavy duty black strap-shaped bungee > cords, to avoid the use of springs. The EPDM rubber > is much quieter internally than any spring would be. > Or maybe some O rings, I haven't worked out that > detail completely yet. After adjustment, a pair of > set bolts located through the wings of the "U" base on > either side of the sliding arm mount block would > complete the lockdown/"tighten-up" quickly and > conveniently, if bolts not requiring tools are used. > These could be as simple and cheap as (a clunky) pair > of common bolts, or as elegant and ergonomic as custom > machined wing bolts with large lever shaped handles. > The height adjustment screw could be matched to these, > and simply replaced if and when motorization were > realized (, if ever). Or a vernier calibrated dial > could be mounted on the threaded shaft to facilitate > more easily repeated resetting & adjustment. > A matching extension could be made for > the bottom of the base, in order to carry mechanical > grounding of the arm through in a direct path, using > all one material, to whatever the TT system is sited > on . This may or may not be of interest to those who > are into the arm to platter direct vibration loop > design concept, unless they *also* want to ground the > noise somewhere. I intend to ground both the arm and > bearing directly into a sand mix ( or whatever else I > choose to experiment with), using a *rigid* but noise > suppressive chassis between the two, and this is *not* > an invitation for a 10,000 word attack upon my choice > of concepts. Do what you want, everybody, but have > respect for individual choices. I am confident of my > approach, and do not mind if I come out ahead on my > own. Or not, at the will of my muse. I do certainly > and absolutely know that *following* trends > accomplishes no advances, as one cannot lead by > following, and it is clear to me that my concepts, in > that regard, are not understood, as I never found the > time , *or clear space*, to explain them fully. Nor > will I at this point, it is not worth it to me, I > might as well "keep" something, and am far too short > of time now to get into it, knowing that I might have > to spend every waking minute of the following week > just to "defend" my ideas from one or two particularly > vocal members insistent on their own views. I do not > seek to "lead" anyone, anyway, my best audio results > have always been due to my maverick character, and > willingness to think and try what is beyond and > outside the trends. We should all be able to discuss > and do what appeals to us, without running into a > vituperative browbeating. A drawing I sent privately > to Thom shows a rough mockup of what I have in mind. > This is worth mentioning only because that drawing > shows a detail which takes advantage of an interesting > concept we designed into the bearing structure, which > has not been mentioned lately, that I've noticed, and > those not part of the original group may be unaware > of, if they did not go through the old posts. It is > worth being aware of. The bearing is designed to come > drilled out at the bottom to accept a 1/4-20 thread, > in order to mount a tiptoe/cone to facilitate direct > grounding of the bearing. Make, or not, what you will > of this. I want to make good use of this, and have it > in mind to carry this concept through to the arm > mounting as well, in order to ground noise as > effectively as possible, and not by grounding the > noise of either one to the other! In order to make > the most of this , I figure on using a brass cone at > the bottom of the bearing, and an aluminum one at the > bottom of the aluminum VTA & arm assemblies, assuming > that to be the most likely material for these. Point > being, match the materials for the best conduction > achievable, given the foibles of impedance reflections > due to just about any kind of sudden shape > discontinuity within any given part. > I tried to rough out a sketch I could send > along with this today, but just didn't have the time > to complete it. Maybe in the next few days, maybe > not. > > > Igor > > > --- phclark wrote: > > Thanks, Igor. > > > > Q: After the gross arm board height is set, what is > > your guess about the > > useful range of pivot height adjustment required? > > .25"? .375"? These are > > pretty small arcs on a 10" pivot, would that be > > enough? If that's the case, > > the adjuster may not need to be prohibitively tall, > > since the "shims" > > themselves wouldn't need to be that high. I'll > > power up my cad program and > > see if I can do some intelligible drawings. > > > > BTW, I like to couch potato as much as the next guy > > (I've got a preamp in > > the works with a motorized pot,) but I suspect a > > remote is gilding the lily, > > apart from *really* making things complex with > > another power supply for the > > remote, the motor, mechanical linkage (can't use > > pneumatic unless the > > assembly was prohibitively heavy, you're just adding > > another spring,) a > > limiter so that you don't go out of adjustment range > > from across the room... > > The drawbacks abound. > > > > It might well prove to be preferable to have a small > > variety of thicknesses > > of record mats to compensate for the small > > variations of vinyl thickness, > > once an "average" VTA setting has been achieved, > > rather than constantly > > messing with the mechanicals of the system. Dunno. > > > > My $0.02. > > > > Peter C > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Igor Kuznetsoff" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 1:10 AM > > Subject: Re: [teres] :VTA adjustment > > > > > > > Steve, Peter, > > > Ken Schei & I ran up some bytes early > > on > > > in the project discussing (let's say dreaming > > > about)the possibility of using a Velleman remote > > > control kit to motorize VTA adjustment from the > > > listening seat. (Ken had been thinking of remote > > > control of his preamp volume using the same kit.) > > I > > > believe that is the most accurate way to do that. > > The > > > accuracy of the VTA setting will change with the > > > thickness of the record. As resetting for > > individual > > > records is a PITA without a system that makes it > > easy > > > to do, I've lived with an averaged setting that I > > > generally don't fool with, much as I would like to > > > trim it to match for the best sound. > > > For that reason, my early sketches of a > > VTA > > > adjusting base took in the possibility of adding > > the > > > remote control in the future, with adjustment > > > originally effected manually (obviously, this > > could > > > not be done from the listening seat). To avoid > > the > > > need to access the arm locknut, and provide the > > most > > > solid attachment I could envision, I designed it > > as an > > > adjustable *base*, with no adjustment of the arm > > once > > > mounted. The height is set by a pair of angled > > > slides, along the same lines as Peter envisioned > > > below, with the return/tensioning function handled > > by > > > a heavy rubber retainer (to avoid the use of > > springs), > > > such as a piece of black EPDM bungee cord section. > > A > > > pair of set bolts would complete the > > > lockdown/"tighten-up", and would be applied to the > > > sliding section carrying the arm. The device was > > > meant to be machined out of aluminum, and needs > > some > > > space (as in height), which our 3" high platter > > may or > > > may not provide enough of. The project stalled at > > the > > > point of my requesting some dimensions of the Rega > > arm > > > of one of our guys who agreed to do some > > measuring, > > > but that never happened, and now I've run > > completely > > > out of time to work on this, though if I could get > > the > > > dimensions, I might attempt it yet if I find a few > > > minutes of time somewhere. That, and not the need > > for > > > drawing facilities is what actually stalled this, > > as > > > previously reported, though a better drawing > > program > > > wouldn't hurt. I do wonder about the practicality > > of > > > doing this, though, as this would be more complex > > than > > > any of the other designs, and the machining could > > > *only* be practical if produced en masse. > > > Fortunately, both the already existing $40 > > dollar > > > unit on the Artech site or Kal's design look like > > they > > > could serve just fine, even if they don't look > > like > > > they will do quite everything I could wish for, > > > assuming that it is possible at all to fit what I > > have > > > in mind into the space available, which I just > > don't > > > know yet. And there are the Origin Live & Express > > > machining versions as well. My reservations wrt > > the > > > devices I've seen so far is the same as Peter's, > > that > > > the post height gets the adjustment, which > > suggests a > > > loss of mounting solidity & coupling (although the > > > Artech version looks fairly effective). Also, I > > have > > > concerns with the need for access to the locknut, > > and > > > the inconvenience and difficulty (depending > > somewhat > > > on individual chassis realizations as well as > > which > > > adjuster is used) of having to do that. I'm not > > fond > > > of the idea of applying a locknut to the threaded > > > portion of the arm shaft, either, that someone > > > mentioned. > > > > > > Igor > > > > > > --- Stephen Tag wrote: > > > > > > > > I've been imagining an adjustable armboard with > > the > > > > adjustments done by some > > > > kind of servo motor and a wire to the > > > > control(probably), or remote ( less > > > > likely- much more involved and expensive). I > > HATE > > > > setting VTA, and I have > > > > always thought it would be really nice to adjust > > it > > > > WHILE listening. Once > > > > the right height is found, some kind of set > > screw > > > > could be tightened up. My > > > > Teres seems like a perfect place to try to > > integrate > > > > this feature. Any of > > > > you turntable nuts, I mean designers have any > > > > thoughts on this? > > > > > > > > Steve Tag > > > > > > > >Thanks again, Kal. > > > > > > > >OK, I've pondered this. While implying no > > criticism > > > >of the concept, Kal's dingus is not what I had in > > > >mind. While it does appear that Kal's post > > > >mount is the most secure of that configuration > > > >available, his device, like the others I've seen, > > > >still raises the post, not the post mounting. > > > > > > > >Which brings me back to one of my original > > > >questions. Is VTA set and forget for any > > individual > > > >cart? It is a comparatively simple matter to > > make > > > the > > > >armboard adjustable if you only have to do it > > once in > > > >a while. If it needs to be done on a routine > > basis > > > >(see previous comments about mounting nut > > > >accessibility) that is an entirely different > > kettle > > > === message truncated === > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Rega Group Purchase - Last Day Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 06:03:44 -0700 From: George Munger, George Munger To: teres@aiko.com Bill, I want to participate in the Rega O/L Group Purchase. I want: Arm $145.94 Structural Mod $75.31 Internal Wire $70.29 External Wire $70.29 Plugs $20.08 Ship to: George Munger 79 Tanglewydle Road Lake Peekskill NY 10537 Thanks. >>> "Bob.Obo" 04/03 12:33 AM >>> Hello, Currently there are 8 folks involved in the Rega Group Purchase. The project required 20 participants minimum. Here is the official "order form" information... ACTION REQUIRED: If you want to participate in a Rega Group Purchase you must identify the arm/mods you want and commit to your purchase by noon Monday, April 3, 2000 by email to the list server teres. You email must read... I want to participate in the Rega O/L Group Purchase. I want...[arm model/mods] Ship to...[name/shipping address] If you have further questions ask ASAP and we will try to answer ASAP! "Estimated" Timeline... add grain of salt! Order Deadline April 3, 2000 Group Purchase Viability April 3, 2000 Develop Cost April 4, 2000 Send Money for Purchase to "Teres Distribution Agent" April 18, 2000 Send Money to O/L April 19, 2000 O/L Receive Money April 29, 2000 O/L Processing Completed May 14, 2000 O/L Shipment Received June 7, 2000 Reshipped June 10, 2000 Received June 24, 2000 Shipping from Great Britain to the drop location is $5.80US for each arm. The arms will then be repackaged and reshipped at an additional expense to the purchaser. Any additional cost for packaging will be determined later. As I live in Canada, an additional 14% plus duty (2-4%) will be added to the final purchase price if you want me to ship. However, the additional taxes if shipped to the USA are zero. While I have moved this process along, I do not think shipping these arms to Canada for me to reship is cost effective and would entertain someone in the USA stepping in for this part. However, I would be pleased to do the shipping via Canada if the group so desires. ACTION REQUIRED: Will anyone accept the responsibility of receiving/repackaging and reshipping the arms? No Chris... down boy. Prices reflect NO VAT, payment to O/L will be in USD No unmodified arms can be purchased from Origin Live (see email from O/L below) Single Group (20) Arm $145.94 $145.94 Structural Mod $100.42 $75.31 Internal Wire $93.72 $70.29 External Wire $93.72 $70.29 Plugs $26.78 $20.08 ***Note*** these prices are approximate and will be adjusted for currency fluctuations once the bulk order is deemed viable. Origin/Live's response to recent email ***Quote/Copy begins*** Mark Baker Tel: 01703 442183 Fax: 01703 398905 E-mail: origin.live@virgin.net Web Site: http://www.originlive.com REGA GROUP PURCHASE QUESTIONS #1. Can an unmodded arm be bought from O/L if a REGA dealer is available nearby... what is nearby? As mentioned previously we do not sell unmodified arms for a number of good reasons. #2. Does the discount apply to the Rega VTA? Does the discount apply to cartridges? [it applies to the VTA but not cartridges as we have no margin to play with since we do not manufacture cartridges] #3. How long is OL internal wire coming out of a tonearm tube? [ the internal wire does not exit the bottom of the arm base as it is soldered internally to the external wire at the base plug] ... Can someone order an extra long length so they could connect this internal wire to their pre-amp...if yes, the cost is? [Yes they can - at an extra cost of £10 for any length. ] There seems to be an idea going around at present that continuous wires are an advantage - we have tried this and can only comment as follows... The external screened cable we use is better than the internal wiring. Internal wires must be very thin to avoid arm friction and are thus a compromise - external cabling is uncompromised and the benefits of optimized design far outweigh the benefits of avoiding a hard wired joint (hard wiring is nothing like as degrading as contact joints or brass connectors etc. The other problems of using the internal wiring externally is that the wires should be configured at a set distance apart and screening is very costly. Put another way - the ideal, is to request that the external cable is continued all the way to the headshell (which is not possible of course due to friction problems). Hopefully this may clarify that in our experience the compromise cable is the internal wiring not the external and as said before the joint is relatively insignificant in comparison to the effect of the type of wire used (even over short lengths). $4. Would all the arms be shipped bulk to one location or can one (some) be shipped individually to different locations and still receive the discount? [ individually shipped arms would each carry a £9 carriage charge] #5. THE TRANSACTION... Would the entire amount for the group purchase be required before work began? How long would an order of 20 arms require... the structural mod, internal and external rewiring? Are the orders payed in US dollars or British Pounds? Do you take VISA ? [ we would require advance payment. The time would be approx 4 days of work. It may take up to 10 days to get hold of the Rega arms as we do not have quite this quantity in stock at present. US dollars or UK pounds GBP are fine - please see not below METHODS OF PAYMENT a) Direct transfer to our bank (bank charges can be pricey see details below). b) Money order, or cashiers cheque ( By far the least expensive method). c) Eurocheque. d) Cash in £ pounds sterling sent in insured letter. e) Send signed travellers cheques If you wish to pay in American dollars or convert from other currencies, please multiply prices by factors found in up to date foreign currency conversion site at http://www.xe.net/currency/ We ourselves do not take credit cards at this time. Make any cheques and payments out to "Origin Live" and send to address as follows Origin Live, 87 Chessel Crescent, Bitterne, Southampton SO19 4BT UK If you wire a money transfer direct through your bank, then our bank details are as follows (your bank will explain the procedure):- Barclays Bank Bitterne, Southampton Group, PO Box 2, Southampton SO14 2SB UK Bank Sort Code 20-79-29 Account No 80251100 We look forward to hearing from you. ***Quote/Copy Ends*** That's all folks! Bill Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 06:18:07 -0700 From: W Leoniy, W Leoniy To: teres@aiko.com > Bill, > > I want to participate in the Rega O/L Group Purchase. > > I want: > Arm $145.94 > Structural Mod $ 75.31 > Internal Wire $ 70.29 > External Wire $ 70.29 Total $361.83 > > Ship to: > > Bill Leoniy 5011 Maidstone Ct College Station, TX 77845 Note: this address may well change to something in Oklahoma before the arms are shipped. I will update as soon as I have my new digs. Subject: RE: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment - I want in! Please!! Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:24:29 -0700 From: Schei, Kenneth, Schei, Kenneth To: 'teres@aiko.com' Even though aluminum is a better conductor than brass, copper, or silver, I'd be wary about using it for connectors, IMHO. Aluminum has a tarnish or corrosion that is rather non-conductive. Back in the "70s aluminum wiring was used for a while in new home construction. It was eventually outlawed because the mechanical connections could become resistive from corosion and could possibly heat up enough to start a fire. An aluminum tarnish may also cause a semiconductor-like interface that might have detrimental effects on the sound. I believe that the reason for using materials like gold, silver, and rhodium for the surface of mechanical connectors like phono plugs is not because of their superior conductivity but because of their superior tarnish (or non-tarnish) characteristics. Cheers, Ken > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob.Obo [SMTP:bobobo@dowco.com] > Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 7:13 AM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment - I > want in! Please!! > > Hiya Paul, > > Thanks for the email... you are in! > > I haven't been in vinyl land for awhile, but I believe these are > simple > phono plugs that connect the external wire to the pre-amp. > > Here is O/L's description on the "Phone Plug" > > "Replaces brass phono plugs with Aluminium phono plugs - Over twice as > conductive as brass and very audibly so (beware there are look-alikes for > this particular plug that are only brass). When one considers that silver > is > only 1.06 times as conductive as copper it is easily appreciated that this > is significant improvement. The quality of phono plugs is often overlooked > in the pursuit of ever higher standards of cable, but plugs have a > surprising influence! It is well known that even 2.5cm of cable exerts > it's > own sonic signature almost as much as 5 metres of the same - the brass > phono > is all part of the cable! Add £20 Improvement = 6%" > > For me... I will likely direct connect / solder for a better connection > than > any plug AND have 20 skinolas in my pocket (That's $30 Canadian... movie > and > a large popcorn!) > > Also, thanks for your offer to re-ship the arms. One fellow has > volunteered; > I will put you into the batter's box should he decline. > > I hope this helps. > > Best regards, > Bill > (Bob.Obo) > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Croft > To: teres@aiko.com > Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 5:20 AM > Subject: RE: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment - I want > in! > Please!! > > > >Hi Bob & fellow teresists, > >I want to participate in the Rega O/L Group Purchase. > >I want... > > 1 ea Rega 250b Arm 145.94 > > 1 ea Structural Mod 75.31 > > 1 ea Internal Wire 70.29 > > 1 ea External Wire 70.29 > > > >Bob, are the Plugs mentioned for $20.08 only needed if we DO NOT get the > >external wire mod? I guess what I am asking, is what are they used for? > If > I > >need them (it) I would like to order them (it). Otherwise, I'd like to > keep > >the twenty bucks in my pocket. Let me know if I need them, please. > > > >Ship to... > > Paul Croft > > 1457 Old Elk Neck Road > > Elkton, MD 21921 > > > >Bob, you will receive the required 361.83 (or 382.12), plus shipping, > before > >April 18. > > > >Also, I would be glad to accept the responsibility of > receiving/repackaging > >and reshipping the arms in the USA. Let me know the details. > > > >Thank you very much for your help on this, Bob > >Cheers, > >Paul Croft > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > >> Bob.Obo > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 9:55 PM > >> To: teres@aiko.com > >> Subject: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment > >> > >> > >> Hiya Folks... below is the scoop on the Rega Arms. > >> > >(The ole sniparoo...) > > > > Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase Call for Commitment Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:08:09 -0700 From: Martin Gon, Martin Gon To: bobobo CC: teres Hi! I'm interested in theparticipation of the Rega/OL group purchaseI would like to purchase the rega 250 arm, the OL structural mods , the internal and external cabling,and plugs Please ship to: Martin Gon 280 W.MacArthur Blvd,Oakland, CA 94611. Subject: Re: [teres] Rega Group Purchase - Last Day Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 16:04:52 -0700 From: Mikhail Karlin, Mikhail Karlin To: teres@aiko.com Hello, Bill, I want to participate in the Rega O/L group purchase I want: -Arm (RB 250) -structural mode -internal wire My question - will the internal wire be left loose or terminated on some hardware, would it be easy to solder my own external wire on it ? I'll give you my shipping adress later. Thanks, Michael Karlin On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Bob.Obo wrote: > Hello, > > Currently there are 8 folks involved in the Rega Group Purchase. The > project required 20 participants minimum. Here is the official "order form" > information... > > > > ACTION REQUIRED: > If you want to participate in a Rega Group Purchase you must identify the > arm/mods you want and commit to your purchase by noon Monday, April 3, 2000 > by email to the list server teres. You email must read... > > I want to participate in the Rega O/L Group Purchase. > I want...[arm model/mods] > Ship to...[name/shipping address] > > If you have further questions ask ASAP and we will try to answer ASAP! > > "Estimated" Timeline... add grain of salt! > > Order Deadline April 3, 2000 > Group Purchase Viability April 3, 2000 > Develop Cost April 4, 2000 > Send Money for Purchase to "Teres Distribution Agent" April 18, 2000 > Send Money to O/L April 19, 2000 > O/L Receive Money April 29, 2000 > O/L Processing Completed May 14, 2000 > O/L Shipment Received June 7, 2000 > Reshipped June 10, 2000 > Received June 24, 2000 > > Shipping from Great Britain to the drop location is $5.80US for each arm. > The arms will then be repackaged and reshipped at an additional expense to > the purchaser. Any additional cost for packaging will be determined later. > As I live in Canada, an additional 14% plus duty (2-4%) will be added to the > final purchase price if you want me to ship. > > However, the additional taxes if shipped to the USA are zero. While I have > moved this process along, I do not think shipping these arms to Canada for > me to reship is cost effective and would entertain someone in the USA > stepping in for this part. However, I would be pleased to do the shipping > via Canada if the group so desires. > > ACTION REQUIRED: Will anyone accept the responsibility of > receiving/repackaging and reshipping the arms? No Chris... down boy. > > Prices reflect NO VAT, payment to O/L will be in USD > No unmodified arms can be purchased from Origin Live (see email from O/L > below) > Single Group (20) > Arm $145.94 $145.94 > Structural Mod $100.42 $75.31 > Internal Wire $93.72 $70.29 > External Wire $93.72 $70.29 > Plugs $26.78 $20.08 > > ***Note*** these prices are approximate and will be adjusted for currency > fluctuations once the bulk order is deemed viable. > > > Origin/Live's response to recent email > > ***Quote/Copy begins*** > Mark Baker > > Tel: 01703 442183 > Fax: 01703 398905 > E-mail: origin.live@virgin.net > Web Site: http://www.originlive.com > > REGA GROUP PURCHASE QUESTIONS > #1. Can an unmodded arm be bought from O/L if a REGA dealer is available > nearby... what is nearby? > > As mentioned previously we do not sell unmodified arms for a number of good > reasons. > > > #2. Does the discount apply to the Rega VTA? Does the discount apply to > cartridges? > > [it applies to the VTA but not cartridges as we have no margin to play with > since we do not manufacture cartridges] > > > #3. How long is OL internal wire coming out of a tonearm tube? > > [ the internal wire does not exit the bottom of the arm base as it is > soldered internally to the external wire at the base plug] ... > > Can someone order an extra long length so they could connect this internal > wire to their pre-amp...if yes, the cost is? > > [Yes they can - at an extra cost of £10 for any length. ] > > There seems to be an idea going around at present that continuous wires are > an advantage - we have tried this and can only comment as follows... > The external screened cable we use is better than the internal wiring. > Internal wires must be very thin to avoid arm friction and are thus a > compromise - external cabling is uncompromised and the benefits of optimized > design far outweigh the benefits of avoiding a hard wired joint (hard wiring > is nothing like as degrading as contact joints or brass connectors etc. The > other problems of using the internal wiring externally is that the wires > should be configured at a set distance apart and screening is very costly. > Put another way - the ideal, is to request that the external cable is > continued all the way to the headshell (which is not possible of course due > to friction problems). Hopefully this may clarify that in our experience the > compromise cable is the internal wiring not the external and as said before > the joint is relatively insignificant in comparison to the effect of the > type of wire used (even over short lengths). > > $4. Would all the arms be shipped bulk to one location or can one (some) be > shipped individually to different locations and still receive the discount? > > [ individually shipped arms would each carry a £9 carriage charge] > > > #5. THE TRANSACTION... > Would the entire amount for the group purchase be required before work > began? > How long would an order of 20 arms require... the structural mod, internal > and external rewiring? > Are the orders payed in US dollars or British Pounds? Do you take VISA ? > > [ we would require advance payment. The time would be approx 4 days of work. > It may take up to 10 days to get hold of the Rega arms as we do not have > quite this quantity in stock at present. US dollars or UK pounds GBP are > fine - please see not below > > METHODS OF PAYMENT > a) Direct transfer to our bank (bank charges can be pricey see details > below). > b) Money order, or cashiers cheque ( By far the least expensive method). > c) Eurocheque. > d) Cash in £ pounds sterling sent in insured letter. > e) Send signed travellers cheques > > If you wish to pay in American dollars or convert from other currencies, > please multiply prices by factors found in up to date foreign currency > conversion site at http://www.xe.net/currency/ > > We ourselves do not take credit cards at this time. > > Make any cheques and payments out to "Origin Live" and send to address as > follows > Origin Live, 87 Chessel Crescent, Bitterne, Southampton SO19 4BT UK > > If you wire a money transfer direct through your bank, then our bank details > are as follows (your bank will explain the procedure):- > Barclays Bank > Bitterne, Southampton Group, > PO Box 2, Southampton > SO14 2SB > UK > > Bank Sort Code 20-79-29 Account No 80251100 > > We look forward to hearing from you. > > ***Quote/Copy Ends*** > > That's all folks! > Bill > > Subject: Re: [teres] VTA Adjustment Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 18:04:46 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com CC: Blair Hansen Hi Peter - I've been off list for a few days. Quite a few posts to get through when you don't check your mail for 4 days :-) One thing to consider with any VTA scheme is to not compromise how your arm is mounted. I know this is obvious, but in light of all of the discussion on tonearm release energy (George Merrill's term for what we've been discussing), I thought I'd re-state this. If I understand your inclined plane concept, it's a lot like what we were talking about in the dialog on tensioning the drive belt. In that dialog, I believe Stan took the ball and ran with my idea of sliding surfaces and coupled it with a pair of inclined planes. One consideration regarding VTA is that with the sliding planes as I understand your concept, you'll be changing the stylus overhang adjustment at the same time, which is a no-no. For the reasonably well-adjusted individual (why is "anal" in the word analog? ) VTA is set and forget. Perhaps, more accurately, it's set and forget, set and forget. As a cartridge's suspension breaks in (after say, 20-100 hours of play) you should re-check/adjust your VTA. I continually confuse SRA (stylus rake angle) with VTA, but the adjustments are both effected by raising and lowering the arm at the post. On a related note, I recall Enid Lumley (tortured but brilliant soul that she is) writing in an old issue of The Absolute Sound about indexing your records by thickness and adjusting your VTA for your thickest records, shimming the thinner records in order to get them to the proper height. Enid burned out and left audio ... got it? I didn't understand your earlier comment about tilting the arm post, but if you were thinking about moving the plane of the post away from vertical (as in tilting it forward), this is really the same as the arm rotating about its vertical bearing axis - in other words, a redundant adjustment. Your thought does raise an interesting point however for achieving azimuth adjustment (how "knock kneed" the stylus appears when viewed head-on). An armboard which tilts in the azimuth plane would allow you to accomplish this. Owners of Brittish and Scottish arms do not have the advantage of adjusting azimuth, as our friends from that side of the pond value rigidity over adjustability. There are obviously some very fine arms in production which do provide for azimuth adjustment (Graham, Morch, Well Tempered, Wheaton, etc.). I have found on my Audiocraft arm (unipivot with adjustable azimuth) that azimuth adjustment has considerably less of an effect than VTA adjustment. There are two perspectives that I know of for adjusting Azimuth: Electrical Azimuth (signal balance in both channels): This approach looks at things from a signal perspective which takes into account how the coil is positioned in the electrical field. I am of the growing opinion that this adjustment should be a lower priority to getting the stylus/cantilever to be perpindicular in the record groove. In experimenting with getting electrical/signal azimuth optimized, I fashioned a "Y" connector with two females merging into one male. I plug my arm cables into the two females. One of the two females of the "Y" has the phase reversed. The male is then plugged into one input in my phono stage. The idea is, to play a mono record, and adjust the azimuth until you've minimized the output through the speaker. You'll never get it to totally cancel out, probably due to the bleed between channels (cartridges only have 25-30 dB of separation) as well as other inconsistencies like off center pressings. Using this method, I find that the angle of the stylus has to be visibly tilted in order to make a difference. Geometric Azimuth adjustment (getting the stylus to seat in the groove): Adjusting in this manner is quite a bit simpler. This adjustment seems to have a relationship to getting the anti-skate optimized, and if you think about it, these two adjustments should be related to each other. For this approach, I start off by using my mirror surfaced cartridge protractor and get the cantilever as vertical as possible. I then pull out my trusty Hi-Fi News & Record Review and adjust the anti-skate. On this record, there are 4 tracks of increasing sensitivity. You make a gross adjustment on track 1 and procede to refine it track by track. Track 4 will always result in some imbalance - it's that sensitive. It probably has to do with things like off center record pressings. Once I get the anti-skate optimized, I fiddle with the azimuth to see if I can reduce the "buzzing" diagnostic sound produced by this record band. Typically, I'll return and re-optimize the anti-skate and then return to re-check azimuth. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: phclark Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [teres] Re:Rega Group Purchase - There is another VTA available Thanks again, Kal. OK, I've pondered this. While implying no criticism of the concept, Kal's dingus is not what I had in mind. While it does appear that Kal's post mount is the most secure of that configuration available, his device, like the others I've seen, still raises the post, not the post mounting. Which brings me back to one of my original questions. Is VTA set and forget for any individual cart? It is a comparatively simple matter to make the armboard adjustable if you only have to do it once in a while. If it needs to be done on a routine basis (see previous comments about mounting nut accessibility) that is an entirely different kettle of fish. I've dreamed up a pair of teflon surfaced inclined planes with a captive turnbuckle w/thumbscrew to raise/lower the entire assembly, but don't want to go to the trouble if it's not necessary. I would also raise the assembly to perhaps an undesirable height, though my present intent already has the platter raised 2.75". Comments? Peter C Subject: Re: [teres] :VTA adjustment Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 18:16:25 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com Peter, My recommendation is that unless you go with a remote control VTA adjustment that Igor lusts for, you might as well go for an average setting and enjoy the music. Burnout could lurk around the corner If you start thinking about changing mats & shims. See my previous post about Enid Lumley leaving audio :-(( I would guess that you wouldn't need too much adjustability range from the remote controlled setup. You'd probably dial in the adjustment fairly closely in the normal fashion & then use the remote for the final plus or minus 0.1" (say, 0.2" total travel). Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: phclark To: Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 2:40 AM Subject: Re: [teres] :VTA adjustment Thanks, Igor. Q: After the gross arm board height is set, what is your guess about the useful range of pivot height adjustment required? .25"? .375"? These are pretty small arcs on a 10" pivot, would that be enough? If that's the case, the adjuster may not need to be prohibitively tall, since the "shims" themselves wouldn't need to be that high. I'll power up my cad program and see if I can do some intelligible drawings. BTW, I like to couch potato as much as the next guy (I've got a preamp in the works with a motorized pot,) but I suspect a remote is gilding the lily, apart from *really* making things complex with another power supply for the remote, the motor, mechanical linkage (can't use pneumatic unless the assembly was prohibitively heavy, you're just adding another spring,) a limiter so that you don't go out of adjustment range from across the room... The drawbacks abound. It might well prove to be preferable to have a small variety of thicknesses of record mats to compensate for the small variations of vinyl thickness, once an "average" VTA setting has been achieved, rather than constantly messing with the mechanicals of the system. Dunno. My $0.02. Peter C Subject: Re: [teres] VTA Adjustment Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 19:48:29 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella" To: Cc: "Blair Hansen" Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 5:07 PM Subject: Re: [teres] VTA Adjustment > Hi Peter - > > One thing to consider with any VTA scheme is to not compromise how your arm > is mounted. I know this is obvious, but in light of all of the discussion > on tonearm release energy (George Merrill's term for what we've been > discussing), I thought I'd re-state this. If I understand your inclined > plane concept, it's a lot like what we were talking about in the dialog on > tensioning the drive belt. In that dialog, I believe Stan took the ball and > ran with my idea of sliding surfaces and coupled it with a pair of inclined > planes. We may be thinking along the same lines. As envisioned, two teflon faced inclined planes would "face" each other, point first. They would interleave, like fingers on right and left hands, sitting flat on the plinth. The arm would be mounted to a block with a "V" shaped bottom, the "V" conforming to the interleaved wedges' included angle. Moving the wedges closer (or further apart) would achieve a balanced vertical motion, the "V" block supported on both sides by the wedges. A screw adjuster would be fairly simple to implement, and a "rubber band" return has the virtue of simplicity. This would permit the "block" to be as massive as you chose and permit securely mounting the arm without having to make provision for routine access to the mounting nut for periodic adjustment. The consensus that .25" of useful vertical travel is all that would be required, thus making this lashup fairly compact. >One consideration regarding VTA is that with the sliding planes as > I understand your concept, you'll be changing the stylus overhang adjustment > at the same time, which is a no-no. Yes, or, actually, no. Thanks for mentioning it, though. I thought of this and dreamed up a registration pin on the plinth/socket on the bottom of the wedge assembly dingus to facilitate positioning and to prevent the spindle/pivot measurement from wandering (more than the slop between the pin and socket.) My $0.02. Peter C Subject: RE: [teres] VTA Adjustment Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 21:05:20 -0700 From: Jon Lane, Jon Lane To: teres@aiko.com A choice of positioning systems suitable for VTA already on the shelf... http://www.optosigma.com/stages/stages.html Jon Lane Subject: Re: [teres] VTA Adjustment Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 21:39:58 -0700 From: Ron Welborne, Ron Welborne To: teres@aiko.com Jolly good show Jon!! Also check out the latest Edmund Scientific catalog for similar products...lots of precision X-Y platforms, mounting plates, levelers, etc. for optics alignment. Or visit their website. http://edsci.com One of those vertical adjustment Thumb Wheel platforms looks to be ideal for VTA adjustment. Best Regards, Ron Welborne Labs wlabs@ix.netcom.com ph: 303.470.6585 fax: 303.791.5783 website --------------- www.welbornelabs.com ----------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Lane To: Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 8:59 PM Subject: RE: [teres] VTA Adjustment > A choice of positioning systems suitable for VTA already on > the shelf... > > http://www.optosigma.com/stages/stages.html > > Jon Lane > > > Subject: Re: [teres] VTA Adjustment Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:20:49 -0700 From: Daus Studenberg, Daus Studenberg To: teres@aiko.com Thanks Jon, I have been looking for a company that sells these type of platforms. Yeah, $110 may be a bit expensive for a VTA adjuster, but it would look soooo cool! :) Besides, these things are real performers because of their locking action and micrometer adjustments. I bet using one of these platforms with a fully modified RB-250 will give you something nearly equivalent to an SME or Graham, with the latter having the same type of VTA adjustment (just look at it). Daus ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Lane To: Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 7:59 PM Subject: RE: [teres] VTA Adjustment > A choice of positioning systems suitable for VTA already on > the shelf... > > http://www.optosigma.com/stages/stages.html > > Jon Lane > > > Subject: RE: [teres] VTA Adjustment Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:07:52 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Interesting stuff & nicely made, but very *pricey*! Cheapest thing I saw in there was an adaptor clamp for $30. Most stages seem to run from a low of $205 to an average of $600-$700, and top out at around $2,000. A goniometer or a tilt platform look like they could be a way to effect azimuth adjustment, for as little as $200 & some, if there was a practical way to mount the arm (via an additional bracket or adaptor ostensibly). Some of the goniometer radius centers look usable. What is not obvious is how these various devices could be adapted for our use. Almost all of them look, at first examination, like they would require adapters (at yet more cost) to mount an arm, which would have to be entirely above these devices, arm stub & all, unless a right angled one was used, and that looks like it might interfere with the arm itself. This would result in a rather tall assembly, taller than than the arm mounting post. The promise of precision adjustment is attractive, but a means of using these nice looking assemblies is not immediately apparent, at least on my first pass through, intriguing as they may be. I would also wonder about how good of an acoustic coupling could be achieved through them. Some of them are "lockable", which is promising in that regard, and potentially useful for locking in the settings as well, but just how much of their contacting surfaces would be tightened together under lockdown? Which one(s) did you have in mind to use, and how? Igor --- Jon Lane wrote: > A choice of positioning systems suitable for VTA > already on > the shelf... > > http://www.optosigma.com/stages/stages.html > > Jon Lane > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] VTA Adjustment Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:52:35 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com Gosh, Peter & Igor - My high school trigonometry is really rusty. After reading both of your comments, it occurs to me that you could indeed site the plane of movement such that overhang changes could be null or minimized. Another point about overhang, especially in the context of an overall height change of .25" was mentioned by Igor - that this would be inconsequential, especially if you dialed in the VTA at your "compromise" setting with the adjuster at it's mid point so that you're really talking about plus or minus .125" of vertical change. Additionally, with all of the different alignment theories out there, changing the overhang adjustment by this small of an amount would merely shift the bias of your adjustment to another alignment, as opposed to making it wrong. I'll read & think before posting next time. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: phclark To: Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [teres] VTA Adjustment ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella" To: Cc: "Blair Hansen" Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 5:07 PM Subject: Re: [teres] VTA Adjustment > Hi Peter - > > One thing to consider with any VTA scheme is to not compromise how your arm > is mounted. I know this is obvious, but in light of all of the discussion > on tonearm release energy (George Merrill's term for what we've been > discussing), I thought I'd re-state this. If I understand your inclined > plane concept, it's a lot like what we were talking about in the dialog on > tensioning the drive belt. In that dialog, I believe Stan took the ball and > ran with my idea of sliding surfaces and coupled it with a pair of inclined > planes. We may be thinking along the same lines. As envisioned, two teflon faced inclined planes would "face" each other, point first. They would interleave, like fingers on right and left hands, sitting flat on the plinth. The arm would be mounted to a block with a "V" shaped bottom, the "V" conforming to the interleaved wedges' included angle. Moving the wedges closer (or further apart) would achieve a balanced vertical motion, the "V" block supported on both sides by the wedges. A screw adjuster would be fairly simple to implement, and a "rubber band" return has the virtue of simplicity. This would permit the "block" to be as massive as you chose and permit securely mounting the arm without having to make provision for routine access to the mounting nut for periodic adjustment. The consensus that .25" of useful vertical travel is all that would be required, thus making this lashup fairly compact. >One consideration regarding VTA is that with the sliding planes as > I understand your concept, you'll be changing the stylus overhang adjustment > at the same time, which is a no-no. Yes, or, actually, no. Thanks for mentioning it, though. I thought of this and dreamed up a registration pin on the plinth/socket on the bottom of the wedge assembly dingus to facilitate positioning and to prevent the spindle/pivot measurement from wandering (more than the slop between the pin and socket.) My $0.02. Peter C