Subject: Re: [teres] Arms Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 17:06:51 -0700 From: Chris Beck, Chris Beck To: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella CC: Tony Bombera; Tim Bailey; Thomas Martin(w); Thomas Martin (h); Thom Mackris (w); Terry Gesualdo; Stewart Ono; Steve Zettel; Stan Goudge; Sammy Pao; Roscoe Primrose; Ron Welborne; Peter Clark; Peter Boser; Mitaru, Alex; Ken Schei (w); Ken Schei (h); Jon Lane; Joe Druley; Jeremy Epstein (w); Ivan Anderson; Igor Kuznetsoff; Grant Sellek; Grant Gassman (h); Gon, Martin; George Munger (w); Gary Bronner; Fred Humphrey; Don Carron; David Suess; Dave Collier (w); Chris Brady; Brian Day (h); Brian Boehler; Bill Mollard; Allen Wright; Bob Pickwoad(h) On the subject of arms, I have a Mayware Formula IV unipivot on the AR ES-1 I have. On that hangs a Shure M97xE cartridge, sort of the "baby brother" of the V15. The arm is a very low mass, silicon damped unipivot. It does match well to the Shure cartridge, but isn't the "last word" in arms anymore. The big question I have is whether this arm would suit the Teres turntable for a time period until I can spring for a "real" arm. That is to say, will I get a reasonable amount of performance from the table with this arm? I plan to go for the Origin RB-250 eventually. It seems to me that such a light arm may benefit greatly from having a substantial table to mount to, as it is incapable in itself to "sink" energy. I'm still on the fence regarding the purchase. My vinyl collection is rather small, but I'd had to miss the opportunity of building a world class table. Keeping the budget down in the short term is a necessity. Thanks! Chris Beck Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella wrote: > Hi Peter, > > There are several folks in your position. The hot setup on a medium budget > at the moment appears to be the Origin Live, modded RB-250 that Thorsten has > raved about. Apparently, it nips at the heels of the "super" arms. The 250 > is supposed to be superior to all other Regas after it's modded and the > plastic counterweight stub is replaced with a machined piece. The reason > they claim is that the spring loaded downforce adjuster which is on all arms > "above" the 250 apparently contributes some vibration. > > http://www.originlive.com/ > http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/olrb250_e.html > Subject: Scheu-Arms Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 00:43:32 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: Thomas Martin(w); Thomas Martin (h); Thom Mackris (w); Steve Zettel; Ron Welborne; Mitaru, Alex; Ken Schei (w); Ken Schei (h); Igor Kuznetsoff; Grant Gasfman; Dave Collier (w); Chris Brady; Brian Day (h); Bill Mollard; George Munger (w) Some sidebar discussions on Rega Arms. Note the comment on the RB250 being the best arm of the lot !! From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella Thomas, You need to surf the Origin Live Site http://www.originlive.com/ The FAQ's are quite interesting http://www.originlive.com/rb900.htm They consider the RB250 to be superior to the RB300 after their mod, since (a) the RB250's main weakness is in the counterweight "stub" which is plastic and is replaced in the mod. (b) No springs in the tracking force adjustment for the RB250 ... in the RB300, they recommend "bypassing" the springs by setting it to 3 gm tracking force which disables the springs. Very interesting stuff on this site, & they seem to really know their Regas. Check out Thorsten's review on the TNT site (he bought his review sample). ======================================== Subject: RE: Scheu-Subchassis Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:27:59 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'BBoehler@aol.com'; tmackris@earthlink.net; briday@uswest.net; Mackris, Thom G.; jepstein@shwd.com CC: cbrady@hobbes.denver.sgi.com; dcollier@arocorp.com; GRANTG10@aol.com; tadgesualdo@hotmail.com; gorkuz@yahoo.com; thomas_r_martin@apl.com; tmartin033@earthlink.net; alexmi@omneon.com; wmollard@dowco.com; GMunger@mnr.org; kenschei@compuserve.com; scheike@asa.org; wlabs@ix.netcom.com; zettel@libby.org; Hanexp@aol.com Brian, Regarding cartridges, there are several safe bets, all of which you've obviously considered & most of which, I have not heard. 1. The lesser Clearaudios - Steve Zettel just installed a Sigma - ($1200) on his Oracle/Audio Note-Rega. I don't know what's below this in Clearaudio MC line, but they make 3 MM's in the $300-$450 range - the most expensive of which was highly thought of in a recent issue of The Listener. Steve wrote a brilliant review of his Clearaudio for the phonogram mailing list. With his permission, I'll forward you a copy (he might have revised/improved it since sending me the text). 2. Benz Glider - we all know about this one. I think John Barnes sells Benz's. I've only briefly heard Ron Welborne's on his Well Tempered Table. Although it's a nice cartridge, I suspect that the Grado suits my taste marginally more. I don't know what the next step down from the glider is. 3. Grado Reference series (the "woodies"). They start at $300.00 & go up up up ... Ken's $300 Reference Platinum ($270 at Moondance) is way cool & I know he's planning a geek-fest at his house shortly. 4. Denon DL-103 ... highly thought of by many in the triode/horn set. A 20 year old design that still has a big following. Apparently an MC that is *not* tipped up but yet still reveals loads of detail. Cost is $300 through April Sound in NYC (http://home.earthlink.net/~aprilsound/ ), although there's a German fellow selling it for ~ 117 Euros (at least one member of the Joe List has successfully completed a transaction with this fellow (phono phono is the name of the store - I have to dig this URL up from my Joe List archives - if you're interested) It puts out 0.3mv, 1K loading. Art Dudley reviewed & liked this cartridge preferring it to his Lyra Lydian in a more recent issue of The Listener (he reviewed 2 versions - stock cartridge and a re-tip by Van den Hull). 5. Dynavector x-10 - also in the aformentioned Listener review. Blair is liking his more and more as it breaks in. Also about $300 Gosh, there must be another half dozen worthy candidates. I can make a copy of the review for you (6 cartridges reviewed: Clearaudio something, Dynavector x10, Grado Reference Platinum, an Audio Note, Rega and of course, the Blue Point Special). I also have a copy of Art's review of the Denon. Cheers, Thom Subject: RE: Scheu-Subchassis Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:34:49 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: Schei, Kenneth; 'BBoehler@aol.com'; tmackris@earthlink.net; briday@uswest.net; tgmackris@vicorpinc.com; jepstein@shwd.com CC: cbrady@hobbes.denver.sgi.com; dcollier@arocorp.com; GRANTG10@aol.com; tadgesualdo@hotmail.com; gorkuz@yahoo.com; thomas_r_martin@apl.com; tmartin033@earthlink.net; alexmi@omneon.com; wmollard@dowco.com; GMunger@mnr.org; kenschei@compuserve.com; Schei, Kenneth; wlabs@ix.netcom.com; zettel@libby.org; Hanexp@aol.com I have often wondered if part of the appeal of moving coils to the high end audio market wasn't perhaps due to the matching age brackets that populate it. Tipped up response balanced by tipped down auditory sensitivity at high frequencies. If (most) moving coils still sound too bright to you, just wait a few more years, they're bound to start sounding better to you as time goes by. Your wives may not agree until some years later, though. I still like my (modified) Shure V15 Type 5 (not the new reissue) among others. You'd be surprised what less than one cent's worth of epoxy can do for the sound of one of those ! The Grado Ref Plat is a very natural sounding cartridge to me. Not as detailed as a modified old run V15, but better in the upper bass/lower mids, where the V15 is a bit warm. The Talisman line MC's, however, are pretty good about their upper end, and are worth checking out. I believe Thom has one of those. I --- "Schei, Kenneth" wrote: > Brian: > > I agree with you about moving coils - they all sound > too bright to me. I > like my Grado Reference Platinum which is still > breaking in (~$300). The > Grado Reference Sonata is the next step up at $500. > For repairs you might > try Intrinsic Audio. > > Ken > > Ken Schei, P.E. > Project Engineer > Antarctic Support Associates > Email address: scheike@asa.org > Phone: 303-643-0163 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BBoehler@aol.com [SMTP:BBoehler@aol.com] > > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 7:14 PM > > To: tmackris@earthlink.net; briday@uswest.net; > tgmackris@vicorpinc.com; > > jepstein@shwd.com > > Cc: cbrady@hobbes.denver.sgi.com; > dcollier@arocorp.com; > > GRANTG10@aol.com; tadgesualdo@hotmail.com; > gorkuz@yahoo.com; > > thomas_r_martin@apl.com; tmartin033@earthlink.net; > alexmi@omneon.com; > > wmollard@dowco.com; GMunger@mnr.org; > kenschei@compuserve.com; > > scheike@asa.org; wlabs@ix.netcom.com; > zettel@libby.org; Hanexp@aol.com > > Subject: Re: Scheu-Subchassis > > > .... I like the air that moving coils provide but > I've always found > > > them to be tipped up in the high end. Maybe > that's why they seem to have > > so > > much presence and air. I've been thinking about > going back to a moving > > magnet or various of. Probably just because I'm > so cheap, I'll stay > > around > > the $500 to $600 dollar mark. Anybody have any > suggestions? > > > > New topic: I need help. I own some "solid state" > stuff that has some > > problems. Does anybody know of anyone in the > Denver/Fort Collins/Colorado > > > > Springs area that understands and can > "effectively" work on Krell, > > Rowland, > > Levinson? .... > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: Scheu-Subchassis Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:19:03 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'Igor Kuznetsoff'; Schei, Kenneth; 'BBoehler@aol.com'; tmackris@earthlink.net; briday@uswest.net; Mackris, Thom G.; jepstein@shwd.com CC: cbrady@hobbes.denver.sgi.com; dcollier@arocorp.com; GRANTG10@aol.com; tadgesualdo@hotmail.com; thomas_r_martin@apl.com; tmartin033@earthlink.net; alexmi@omneon.com; wmollard@dowco.com; GMunger@mnr.org; kenschei@compuserve.com; Schei, Kenneth; wlabs@ix.netcom.com; zettel@libby.org; Hanexp@aol.com I was fortunate to receive the Virtoso Talisman Boron as a gift from my friend Bob after he got his Benz Glider. The cartridge is still mildly tipped up ... not as nasty as some but better than others. I suspect that it is similar to Blair's Dynavector although this is from inference (Virtuoso is to Blair's Blue Special as Dynavector is to Blair's Blue Point Special). Both the Virtuoso & the Dyna seem to have amore even across the band frequency response than the Blue Point - to use an overused (but very descriptive) expression - as if cut from the same cloth (geez, I wish I could come up with another expression that communicates the same thing). I suspect that the Virtuoso Boron has been out of production for a while. After hearing Ken's Grado (with only a dozen or so hours on it), I was reminded of the first Koetsu Rosewood I heard back in the late '80's. My response at that time was " *that's* what I'm after !! ". It appears as if people like Benz & the Clearaudio folks are figuring out how to tame the MC nasties. Apparently (according to Art Dudley), the Denon DL-103 is another of these animals (a 20 year old design). Cheers, Thom -----Original Message----- From: Igor Kuznetsoff [mailto:gorkuz@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 4:35 PM To: Schei, Kenneth; 'BBoehler@aol.com'; tmackris@earthlink.net; briday@uswest.net; tgmackris@vicorpinc.com; jepstein@shwd.com Cc: cbrady@hobbes.denver.sgi.com; dcollier@arocorp.com; GRANTG10@aol.com; tadgesualdo@hotmail.com; gorkuz@yahoo.com; thomas_r_martin@apl.com; tmartin033@earthlink.net; alexmi@omneon.com; wmollard@dowco.com; GMunger@mnr.org; kenschei@compuserve.com; Schei, Kenneth; wlabs@ix.netcom.com; zettel@libby.org; Hanexp@aol.com Subject: RE: Scheu-Subchassis I have often wondered if part of the appeal of moving coils to the high end audio market wasn't perhaps due to the matching age brackets that populate it. Tipped up response balanced by tipped down auditory sensitivity at high frequencies. If (most) moving coils still sound too bright to you, just wait a few more years, they're bound to start sounding better to you as time goes by. Your wives may not agree until some years later, though. I still like my (modified) Shure V15 Type 5 (not the new reissue) among others. You'd be surprised what less than one cent's worth of epoxy can do for the sound of one of those ! The Grado Ref Plat is a very natural sounding cartridge to me. Not as detailed as a modified old run V15, but better in the upper bass/lower mids, where the V15 is a bit warm. The Talisman line MC's, however, are pretty good about their upper end, and are worth checking out. I believe Thom has one of those. I --- "Schei, Kenneth" wrote: > Brian: > > I agree with you about moving coils - they all sound > too bright to me. I > like my Grado Reference Platinum which is still > breaking in (~$300). The > Grado Reference Sonata is the next step up at $500. > For repairs you might > try Intrinsic Audio. > > Ken > > Ken Schei, P.E. > Project Engineer > Antarctic Support Associates > Email address: scheike@asa.org > Phone: 303-643-0163 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BBoehler@aol.com [SMTP:BBoehler@aol.com] > > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 7:14 PM > > To: tmackris@earthlink.net; briday@uswest.net; > tgmackris@vicorpinc.com; > > jepstein@shwd.com > > Cc: cbrady@hobbes.denver.sgi.com; > dcollier@arocorp.com; > > GRANTG10@aol.com; tadgesualdo@hotmail.com; > gorkuz@yahoo.com; > > thomas_r_martin@apl.com; tmartin033@earthlink.net; > alexmi@omneon.com; > > wmollard@dowco.com; GMunger@mnr.org; > kenschei@compuserve.com; > > scheike@asa.org; wlabs@ix.netcom.com; > zettel@libby.org; Hanexp@aol.com > > Subject: Re: Scheu-Subchassis > > > .... I like the air that moving coils provide but > I've always found > > > them to be tipped up in the high end. Maybe > that's why they seem to have > > so > > much presence and air. I've been thinking about > going back to a moving > > magnet or various of. Probably just because I'm > so cheap, I'll stay > > around > > the $500 to $600 dollar mark. Anybody have any > suggestions? > > > > New topic: I need help. I own some "solid state" > stuff that has some > > problems. Does anybody know of anyone in the > Denver/Fort Collins/Colorado > > > > Springs area that understands and can > "effectively" work on Krell, > > Rowland, > > Levinson? .... > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: Scheu-Bearing & Platter Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 20:21:15 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella; Thomas Martin(w); Thomas Martin (h); Thom Mackris (w); Ron Welborne; Mitaru, Alex; Ken Schei (w); Ken Schei (h); Jeremy Epstein (w); Igor Kuznetsoff; Grant Gassman; George Munger (w); Dave Collier (w); Chris Brady; Brian Day (h); Bill Mollard; Brian Boehler; Terry Gesualdo on 1/15/00 08:23, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella at tmackris@earthlink.net wrote: > Regarding Regas & VTA adjustment, Origin makes an adjuster base for Rega > arms. If I recall, it's not an exotic, adjustable in play jobbie, but > rather a second collar which facilitates the use of a set screw (screws?) to > fix the height, much like many of the Brittish & Scottish arms. I believe > they claim that it has some minor sonic advantages too. I am thinking of a flanged section of tubing sized to be a snug slip fit around the Rega mounting tube, slipped over the Rega mounting tube flange up. The upper surface of the flange rests against the bottom surface of the tonearm base. It is normally held in place with two nylon tipped set screws located horizontally in the flange. This tube is threaded on the outside. These threads engage internal threads in another section of flanged tubing, this one fixed immovably to the arm mounting tower or armboard. This flange is drilled horizontally for nylon tipped setscrews bearing on the first flanged tube. To adjust arm height, both sets of setscrews are loosened, the arm is held to prevent rotation, and the inner flanged tube is rotated to raise or lower the arm slightly. The set screws are then tightened up. The only reason to go to this trouble is that with the Rega mounting nut not readily accessible, adjusting VTA is a major and time consuming PITA, requiring the nut to be loosened and shim stock to be inserted or removed and the nut retightened. With the Oracle's open subchassis the nut *is* readily accessible and this is not so much of a problem. But I am envisioning several laminated discs or donuts of acrylic or MDF to bring the arm up to platter height > > I recall VPI used to make an adjustable base from some 5-6 year old Audio > Advisor ads. It was fairly expensive (~$200), although it may have had more > convenient adjustment. The Origin if I recall is in the $65 price range. Now, the OL sounds good, if I can't cobble something together myself. The VPI as I recall, is made to fit a VPI armboard and is too pricy besides. I'll have to go to the Origin Live site and re-acquaint myself with the adjuster. > > I suppose another thought would be to have some kind of adjustable mounting > for the tone arm block. This might end up being more of a nuisance to > effect an adjustment than removing the arm and adding/subtracting shims > would be however. Additionally, it might compromise the energy transfer > from the tonearm to the subchassis ... never mind. I'll continue to ponder > this. Thanks. I don't think I will attempt an adjustable mounting platform -- too complicated and potentially not rigid enough. Steve Subject: [teres] Arms Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 01:13:05 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: Teres I'm a latecomer to this party. Also, while I do vinyl a lot and am currently running two 'tables, I don't consider myself at all sophisticated about tonearms. Since this project, from my perspective, will require ground up acquisition, does anyone have suggestions about arms/carts (I have a brand new MC I haven't even installed yet...)? Cost is something of a consideration, as I'm finishing up a speaker project and an amp project presently and have new Altec compression drivers to implement somewhere... (How do I get myself into these things?) For the system I'll use the Teres 'table with, I generally use 45 Loftin-White monoblocks, 'tho occasionally a 2A3 stereo, into a 15" horn loaded speaker set up, if that makes any difference. TIA Peter C . Subject: Re: [teres] Arms Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 22:06:51 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: Tony Bombera; Tim Bailey; Thomas Martin(w); Thomas Martin (h); Thom Mackris (w); Terry Gesualdo; Stewart Ono; Steve Zettel; Stan Goudge; Sammy Pao; Roscoe Primrose; Ron Welborne; Peter Clark; Peter Boser; Mitaru, Alex; Ken Schei (w); Ken Schei (h); Jon Lane; Joe Druley; Jeremy Epstein (w); Ivan Anderson; Igor Kuznetsoff; Grant Sellek; Grant Gassman (h); Gon, Martin; George Munger (w); Gary Bronner; Fred Humphrey; Don Carron; David Suess; Dave Collier (w); Chris Brady; Brian Day (h); Brian Boehler; Bill Mollard; Beck, Chris; Allen Wright; Bob Pickwoad(h) Hi Peter, I'm copying the entire list (not just those who hooked into majordomo ... hint, hint, folks), since your question is most likely applicable to others. Additionally, perhaps others can further comment as I have no direct experience with Rega arms. There are several folks in your position. The hot setup on a medium budget at the moment appears to be the Origin Live, modded RB-250 that Thorsten has raved about. Apparently, it nips at the heels of the "super" arms. The 250 is supposed to be superior to all other Regas after it's modded and the plastic counterweight stub is replaced with a machined piece. The reason they claim is that the spring loaded downforce adjuster which is on all arms "above" the 250 apparently contributes some vibration. http://www.originlive.com/ http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/olrb250_e.html ----- Original Message ----- From: phclark To: Teres Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 12:08 AM Subject: [teres] Arms I'm a latecomer to this party. Also, while I do vinyl a lot and am currently running two 'tables, I don't consider myself at all sophisticated about tonearms. Since this project, from my perspective, will require ground up acquisition, does anyone have suggestions about arms/carts (I have a brand new MC I haven't even installed yet...)? Cost is something of a consideration, as I'm finishing up a speaker project and an amp project presently and have new Altec compression drivers to implement somewhere... (How do I get myself into these things?) For the system I'll use the Teres 'table with, I generally use 45 Loftin-White monoblocks, 'tho occasionally a 2A3 stereo, into a 15" horn loaded speaker set up, if that makes any difference. TIA Peter C . Subject: [teres] bounced message (problem fixed, it won't happen again) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 20:02:23 -0700 From: Roscoe Primrose, Roscoe Primrose To: teres@aiko.com Arms and cartridges, While this may seem like a motherhood statement, "it all depends. Ie it is not universlly true that for an MC, you need an arm with medium mass or higher or that certain arm bearings are unsuitable. Basically there is a continuum of design compromises in MC's, affecting a good arm match, relating to whether viscous damping helps or is vital, and what effective total mass you need, and how good the arm bearings and mountings need to be i) the low tip (Aka moving mass), high compliance types, usually very low tracking forces, little vibrational energy entering arm tube, (Arm low mass, damped, good to superb bearing friction, fine tolerances). ii) low to very low tip mass, medium compliance types, low to medium TF's and again less vib'n entering arm tube, iiii) medium cartridge mass, higher TF. low compliance cart's (NB moving mass for these covers the spectrum), and these do generally need a medium mass arm with close fine tolerance bearings, because they do put more energy into the arm. Also remember that different MC's along this continuum have have more or less transmissive pivots in their generator, so that vibration is damped or passed differently. Ambient temperature obviously plays a part here. NB that MC's nearlylaways have more precisely defined generator pivot points than MM's, meaning their resolution is usually better. Low to medium output (in Uv's) M's have another advantage in that they are actually quite powerful (in picowatts), being low impedance current sources, unlike MM's. ie they are potentially quieter, and have greater dynamic range, their FR is usualy less dependent on R/C managed resonances. So, listen to several cart's?arms, maybe at friends? and make balanced choices. good luck! Tim B -- Roscoe Primrose -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe -- "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter Subject: Re: [teres] Arms Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:17:11 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: Tony Bombera; Tim Bailey; Thomas Martin(w); Thomas Martin (h); Thom Mackris (w); Terry Gesualdo; Stewart Ono; Steve Zettel; Steve Brooks; Stan Goudge; Sammy Pao; Roscoe Primrose; Ron Welborne; Peter Clark; Peter Boser; Mitaru, Alex; Ken Schei (w); Ken Schei (h); Jon Lane; Joe Druley; Jeremy Epstein (w); Ivan Anderson; Igor Kuznetsoff; Grant Sellek; Grant Gassman (h); Gon, Martin; George Munger (w); Gary Bronner; Fred Humphrey; Don Carron; David Suess; Dave Collier (w); Chris Brady; Brian Day (h); Brian Boehler; Bob Pickwoad(h); Bill Mollard; Beck, Chris; Allen Wright; Gordon Maughan Hi Chris, The good news is that your cartridge compliance matches your arm. I remember your going through this on the Joe List and following a lot of good advice as far as compatibility. In general, I would say that you can live with the Teres as an upgrade from your AR (and it should also be an upgrade to my Merrill and Steve's Oracle). I am really jazzed about the bearing and platter. I certainly have a high level of confidence that between Manfred, Allen Wright and the rest, the controller is as good as done (and world class). What will make or break this design is how we implement the subchassis/isolation (tonight, I'm going to start building the digests on this topic). I strongly suspect that the performance can go anywhere from 80% of your AR to 200% (I know these numbers are meaningless, but you get my drift) ! The good news is that accomplishing good isolation is more of a sweat equity thing than a money thing. I've got a fairly good handle on cartridge/arm compatibility but I'm not clear on why an arm might be incompatibile with a turntable, other than the obvious cases like a linear tracking arm on a softly sprung 'table; say the ET-2 on my Merrill for example. The shifting weight would be a real problem in cases like this. Heavy arms on tables that throw the suspension out of balance could be problematic too. I had an arm compatibility issue when I first got my Merrill. I had an SME V tonearm and this didn't appear to be a good match for that table. I'm not certain why this was the case. The person who got both me into Bob Pickwoad into Merrills had compatibility problems with the SME arm too. The SME is a medium to high mass arm designed to damp low compliance MC's. Spring balance was not an issue since the Merrill has a sliding weight to allow for different tonearm weights. The good news is that the upgrade hierarchy is generally recognized to be table then arm lastly cartridge. In the subchassis dialog (soon to be a digest at a web site near you) we touched on removable armboards vs. a structure that's fixed to the subchassis. I'm undecided in this area, but the dialog will certainly open up, and now we have Gordon Maughan joining the fray with some fresh ideas. More good news comes in the form of the subchassis not being a precision machined piece which can easily made in a home shop and upgraded later as we learn more about materials. It can also be made compatible to a new arm hole drilling. Regarding your vinyl collection, you need to come out and visit us here in the Denver area. We have Don's Disks in Thornton with over 250,000 used records. Then there's Wax Trax in Denver with quite a few. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Beck Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [teres] Arms On the subject of arms, I have a Mayware Formula IV unipivot on the AR ES-1 I have. On that hangs a Shure M97xE cartridge, sort of the "baby brother" of the V15. The arm is a very low mass, silicon damped unipivot. It does match well to the Shure cartridge, but isn't the "last word" in arms anymore. The big question I have is whether this arm would suit the Teres turntable for a time period until I can spring for a "real" arm. That is to say, will I get a reasonable amount of performance from the table with this arm? I plan to go for the Origin RB-250 eventually. It seems to me that such a light arm may benefit greatly from having a substantial table to mount to, as it is incapable in itself to "sink" energy. I'm still on the fence regarding the purchase. My vinyl collection is rather small, but I'd had to miss the opportunity of building a world class table. Keeping the budget down in the short term is a necessity. Thanks! Chris Beck Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella wrote: > Hi Peter, > > There are several folks in your position. The hot setup on a medium budget > at the moment appears to be the Origin Live, modded RB-250 that Thorsten has > raved about. Apparently, it nips at the heels of the "super" arms. The 250 > is supposed to be superior to all other Regas after it's modded and the > plastic counterweight stub is replaced with a machined piece. The reason > they claim is that the spring loaded downforce adjuster which is on all arms > "above" the 250 apparently contributes some vibration. > > http://www.originlive.com/ > http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/olrb250_e.html > Subject: Re: [teres] tonearm length Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:40:58 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com Hi Grant, I believe that Ed Bilecci (http://www.teleport.com/~tube/) had used a separate base for his tone arm. My guess that this would be fairly tough to implement as well as a hell of a nuisance to keep the overhang in alignment (small bumps). One of the goals of the subchassis/armboard is to make certain that the arm is in a fixed position relative to the platter. You can see where this separate configuration would present some major challenges to implement considering the microscopic level of motion control we're talking about. I wonder what the effect woud be of two different resonant signatures - the tonearm block and that of the subchassis. If each one got rattling (again, on a microscopic level) at a different frequency, the arm would be moving with respect to the platter. Realize that these are idle musings on my part - the first things that come to mind. I'll bet Steve Zettel can give you the lowdown on long arms. Certainly one theoretical advantage of a long arm is reducing the tracking error. I believe a problem associated with a long arm is controlling resonance in the longer tube. With respect to the increased mass of the armtube (for a given armtube material) I don't think there's a problem with today's low and medium compliance cartridges. There you have it - the sum total of my guesses. Anyone else ?? Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellek, Grant (TSA) To: 'Teres List' Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 7:28 PM Subject: [teres] tonearm length I saw an ultra-high-end turntable advertisement and it had an unusually long tonearm fitted. OTOH some equally high-end turntables have shortie arms. It seems there is no one optimal solution for arm length? What are the pros and cons of different length arms for our Tereses? It obviously affects the plinth design, so I would like to have this conversation now. Also, is it OK to mount the tonearm on a base that, rather like the motor base, just rests on the main plinth? I had assumed this was a no-no until I saw the exotic Japanese RS tonearm that Gordon Rankin once thought of distributing (but it fell through). This has a built-in base, not particularly massive, that has its own RCA plugs and simply stands on the armboard. Grant Sellek Adelaide, Australia grant.sellek@transport.sa.gov.au Subject: Re: [teres] tonearm length Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:18:55 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 2/17/00 20:45, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella at tmackris@earthlink.net wrote: > > One of the goals of the subchassis/armboard is to make certain that the arm > is in a fixed position relative to the platter. You can see where this > separate configuration would present some major challenges to implement > considering the microscopic level of motion control we're talking about. I > wonder what the effect woud be of two different resonant signatures - the > tonearm block and that of the subchassis. If each one got rattling (again, > on a microscopic level) at a different frequency, the arm would be moving > with respect to the platter. Realize that these are idle musings on my > part - the first things that come to mind. > > I'll bet Steve Zettel can give you the lowdown on long arms. Certainly one > theoretical advantage of a long arm is reducing the tracking error. I > believe a problem associated with a long arm is controlling resonance in the > longer tube. With respect to the increased mass of the armtube (for a given > armtube material) I don't think there's a problem with today's low and > medium compliance cartridges. Well, I don't have anything to add to what Thom has described so accurately. There certainly are those folks that swear by longer than standard arms to minimize tracing error. All other factors being equal (which they never are), the longer arm with its lower geometric error would have a theoretical advantage. However, I just finished checking and adjusting the alignment of my Rega RB-300 (222.8mm spindle to pivot + 17.2mm overhang = 240mm effective length) with a Wallytractor, and then checked the results with a Townshend gauge which reads out in percent distortion, and easily had less than 1% tracing distortion across the entire arc. Unfortunately, I snagged one of the delicate wires at the cartridge with a fingernail and snapped it off flush where it exits the tonearm! Anybody have any advice on how to recover from this snafu?! I suppose I have to completely rewire the tonearm now. I recall seeing a site somewhere on the 'net that described and had pictures how to rewire a Rega without destroying it in the process. Anyone have the URL? Recommendations for replacement wire? (something more robust than the delicate stuff Audio Note used for my arm -- this isn't the first time I've done this, but it was always at the clip end, not the arm tube). Thanks, Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] tonearm length Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:03:58 -0700 From: Mikhail Karlin, Mikhail Karlin To: teres@aiko.com Steve, here is the URL for rewiring Rega tonarm: www.hi-fi.com/diy/rega/steps.html Michael On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Igor Kuznetsoff wrote: > --- Steve Zettel wrote: > > on 2/17/00 20:45, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella at > > tmackris@earthlink.net > > wrote: > > > > > > One of the goals of the subchassis/armboard is to > > make certain that the arm > > > is in a fixed position relative to the platter. > > You can see where this > > > separate configuration would present some major > > challenges to implement > > > considering the microscopic level of motion > > control we're talking about. I > > > wonder what the effect woud be of two different > > resonant signatures - the > > > tonearm block and that of the subchassis. If each > > one got rattling (again, > > > on a microscopic level) at a different frequency, > > the arm would be moving > > > with respect to the platter. Realize that these > > are idle musings on my > > > part - the first things that come to mind. > > > > > > I'll bet Steve Zettel can give you the lowdown on > > long arms. Certainly one > > > theoretical advantage of a long arm is reducing > > the tracking error. I > > > believe a problem associated with a long arm is > > controlling resonance in the > > > longer tube. With respect to the increased mass > > of the armtube (for a given > > > armtube material) I don't think there's a problem > > with today's low and > > > medium compliance cartridges. > > > > Well, I don't have anything to add to what Thom has > > described so accurately. > > There certainly are those folks that swear by longer > > than standard arms to > > minimize tracing error. All other factors being > > equal (which they never > > are), the longer arm with its lower geometric error > > would have a theoretical > > advantage. > > > > However, I just finished checking and adjusting the > > alignment of my Rega > > RB-300 (222.8mm spindle to pivot + 17.2mm overhang = > > 240mm effective length) > > with a Wallytractor, and then checked the results > > with a Townshend gauge > > which reads out in percent distortion, and easily > > had less than 1% tracing > > distortion across the entire arc. > > > > Unfortunately, I snagged one of the delicate wires > > at the cartridge with a > > fingernail and snapped it off flush where it exits > > the tonearm! > > > > Anybody have any advice on how to recover from this > > snafu?! I suppose I have > > to completely rewire the tonearm now. I recall > > seeing a site somewhere on > > the 'net that described and had pictures how to > > rewire a Rega without > > destroying it in the process. Anyone have the URL? > > Recommendations for > > replacement wire? (something more robust than the > > delicate stuff Audio Note > > used for my arm -- this isn't the first time I've > > done this, but it was > > always at the clip end, not the arm tube). > > > > Thanks, > > > > Steve Z > > Ouch. So that's what all those emotion laden, barely > heard words were on the wind that I could almost hear > from so far to the west earlier. My sympathies. > Don't know about taking apart that arm, as I've never > worked on one of those, yet, so I can't suggest > anything beyond, perhaps, the old electrician's trick > of attaching the new wires to the old & pulling > through, if this arm will allow it. I *can* suggest a > more robust wire, *if* it is still available. Van > denHul silver litz is a superb sounding tone arm wire, > and it is a bit more robust than the average, as well. > Not cheap, though. > > Oh, and what arms are considered to be significantly > longer than the average? How many are there? > > Igor > > > > > > attaching a new wire to the > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [teres] tonearm length Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:30:42 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 2/18/00 00:29, Igor Kuznetsoff at gorkuz@yahoo.com wrote: > > Ouch. So that's what all those emotion laden, barely heard words were on > the wind that I could almost hear from so far to the west earlier. My > sympathies. Don't know about taking apart that arm, as I've never worked on > one of those, yet, so I can't suggest anything beyond, perhaps, the old > electrician's trick of attaching the new wires to the old & pulling through, > if this arm will allow it. I *can* suggest a more robust wire, *if* it is > still available. Van denHul silver litz is a superb sounding tone arm wire, > and it is a bit more robust than the average, as well. Not cheap, though. > > Oh, and what arms are considered to be significantly longer than the > average? How many are there? > > Igor > > Thanks for the sympathies, Igor. The "blue streak" locally caused a partial > meltdown of the snow around the Zettel homestead, and registered briefly on > the seismograph at Libby Dam. The local radio station reported that a sonic > boom was heard last night up and down the Kootenai River valley! > > I am all better now. The URL sent by Mikhail shows that the rubber plug in the > end of the tonearm at the headshell is removable, so I *might* be able to > remove it and get a little slack. . > > I have some Cardas wire I can strip out of another Rega, but since it has > already been terminated once, it might be nip and tuck for sufficient length. > > The longer than "normal" tonearms that come to mind right now are a version of > VPI JMW Memorial (12") and several of the Goldmunds. I believe the Japanese > offer several 12" arms, and they used to be more common in the past, known as > "transcription" arms. Found in some radio stations, and wherever lacquer were > cut. > > Best regards, > > Steve Z > > > Subject: Re: [teres] Origin/Rega RB 250 Arm Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 20:19:53 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella" To: Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2000 1:01 AM Subject: Re: [teres] Subchassis & Armboard > Peter, > > There's no problem with the mounting nut on the Rega or my Audiocraft. > Other mouting techniques (Linn's multiple allen screws) present a variation > on the same problem. You are not alone on this design issue. BTW, it seems > as if we need to try to figure out a group buy on Origin Live Rega 250 mods. > I'll bet there are at least a dozen candidates on this list for one. > Thanks for the replies. I'm really not the panty waist it might seem. Most of my construction expertise lies in speakers with a minor in wire. I've never done a turntable from a flat footed start and am anxious to not make any stupid mistakes that I might be able to avoid by simply heeding the sages. I support the notion of a group buy on the Rega RB 250, BTW. Count me in. Even though this project will generate a high quality table, the envy... etc., etc., saving a buck or two wouldn't break my heart. In relation to this, Origin offers a rewire option on their arms. I, for one, would not want to add this feature to my arm in a group purchase, unless it was dirt cheap. Though it's possible I'd regret not having done it at the start, I do have other ideas about how this might be done. I want to see, for example, the Rega rewiring blurbs that have recently been posted to the Analogue Addicts list. (I just haven't had time to do it.) Of course, many things are possible in the evolution of this project and I would not foolishly (hopefully) rule any options out. Thanks. Peter C Subject: RB 250 Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:08:42 -0700 From: Stewart Ono, Stewart Ono To: tmackris@earthlink.net Thom: I still can't post to the list although I'm getting all the mail (and boy, is there a lot!). However, if the group is interested I can get Rega arms, not the Origin ones but the stock Rega, for cost plus shipping. The arms will have to be shipped to me, so unfortunately that will increase the postage, but I estimate cost to be $200. I can take a CC but then you'd have to add 2%. Regards, Stu Subject: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:31:28 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: Teres_List; Stewart Ono All, I'm forwarding this on Stu's behalf. Strangely Stu can receive posts but cannot send them. Stu can source Regas at cost. The endless resources of this group continue to amaze me. Cheers, Thom Note to Stu, Roscoe, Jeremy .... Stu - is your e-mail account behind a corporate firewall? Any thoughts from Roscoe ... Jeremy? I believe that Stu said that he can post to other lists like the Joe list. This is real strange. If posting becomes an issue for you, perhaps you can sign up for something like Yahoo mail. I've tested this out, and Igor is currently on Yahoo too. You'll have your normal e-mail and its superior filtering & folder management & only use Yahoo to post from. Kludgy, but it'll work until you resolve the problem. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Stewart Ono To: Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2000 10:04 PM Subject: RB 250 Thom: I still can't post to the list although I'm getting all the mail (and boy, is there a lot!). However, if the group is interested I can get Rega arms, not the Origin ones but the stock Rega, for cost plus shipping. The arms will have to be shipped to me, so unfortunately that will increase the postage, but I estimate cost to be $200. I can take a CC but then you'd have to add 2%. Regards, Stu Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:21:05 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com This is certainly good news. At the risk of looking a gift horse in the mouth, when I priced the Origin set up (and confirmed it from their website this eve) with the arm weight mod only (at about $90,) it came to 165 Pounds Sterling or about $260 and change, incl. freight. I speculate the mechanical wizards in the present assemblage might be able to improve on the Origin Mod. There would be the advantage of having complete control over whatever modifications might be made. After all, Origin is marketing a one size fits all "fix." The question then arises whether our speculated "in house" mod would be price and performance competitive with Origin's. It strikes me that it still might be a good idea to approach Origin with a purchasing proposal and see what they say. Knowledge is power. My $0.02. Peter C ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella" To: "Teres_List" ; "Stewart Ono" Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 8:34 PM Subject: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > All, > > I'm forwarding this on Stu's behalf. Strangely Stu can receive posts but > cannot send them. > > Stu can source Regas at cost. The endless resources of this group continue > to amaze me. > > Cheers, > Thom > > Note to Stu, Roscoe, Jeremy .... > > Stu - is your e-mail account behind a corporate firewall? Any thoughts from > Roscoe ... Jeremy? I believe that Stu said that he can post to other lists > like the Joe list. This is real strange. > > If posting becomes an issue for you, perhaps you can sign up for something > like Yahoo mail. I've tested this out, and Igor is currently on Yahoo too. > You'll have your normal e-mail and its superior filtering & folder > management & only use Yahoo to post from. Kludgy, but it'll work until you > resolve the problem. > > Cheers, > Thom > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Stewart Ono > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2000 10:04 PM > Subject: RB 250 > > > Thom: > > I still can't post to the list although I'm getting all the mail (and boy, > is there a lot!). However, if the group is interested I can get Rega arms, > not the Origin ones but the stock Rega, for cost plus shipping. The arms > will have to be shipped to me, so unfortunately that will increase the > postage, but I estimate cost to be $200. I can take a CC but then you'd have > to add 2%. > > Regards, > > Stu > > > > > Subject: RE: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 05:01:46 -0700 From: Paul Croft, Paul Croft To: teres@aiko.com; Stewart Ono Hi folks, Here I go again! Sign me up please. My only question is why was the RB250 chosen instead of the RB300? Is it a better tone arm? Cost less? Or... Thanks, Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 10:35 PM > To: Teres_List; Stewart Ono > Subject: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > > > All, > > I'm forwarding this on Stu's behalf. Strangely Stu can receive posts but > cannot send them. > > Stu can source Regas at cost. The endless resources of this > group continue > to amaze me. > > Cheers, > Thom > (Big snip...) Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 05:57:32 -0700 From: steve brooks, steve brooks To: teres@aiko.com Also, in case you were not aware, Express Machining(the Lift folks) have released a replacement counterweight for the Rega http://www.expressmachining.com/heavy-wt/heavy.html for $80 and should have available any day now a VTA adjuster for the Rega for I think $40. Steve > I speculate the mechanical wizards in the present assemblage might be able > to improve on the Origin Mod. There would be the advantage of having > complete control over whatever modifications might be made. After all, > Origin is marketing a one size fits all "fix." The question then arises > whether our speculated "in house" mod would be price and performance > competitive with Origin's. Subject: RE: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:44:08 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'teres@aiko.com' Check Origin Live's site, Paul http://www.originlive.com/index.htm After replacing the plastic counterweight stub with a stainless one, the 250 is superior to a 300 with the same stub replacement. All arms from the 300 and above use a spring for tracking force which is supposed to rattle around according to Origin. Thom -----Original Message----- From: Paul Croft [mailto:pcroft@iximd.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 4:03 AM To: teres@aiko.com; Stewart Ono Subject: RE: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Hi folks, Here I go again! Sign me up please. My only question is why was the RB250 chosen instead of the RB300? Is it a better tone arm? Cost less? Or... Thanks, Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 10:35 PM > To: Teres_List; Stewart Ono > Subject: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > > > All, > > I'm forwarding this on Stu's behalf. Strangely Stu can receive posts but > cannot send them. > > Stu can source Regas at cost. The endless resources of this > group continue > to amaze me. > > Cheers, > Thom > (Big snip...) Subject: RE: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:32:46 -0700 From: Peter Boser, Peter Boser To: teres@aiko.com Hate to put a fly in the ointment, but isn't the price from Origin live for an unmodified arm substantially less than $200? (Especially since non EU people can deduct the VAT.) Pete P.S. Stu, no offense intended -- thanks for being willing to put yourself out! > > From: owner-teres@aiko.com > [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > > Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 10:35 PM > > To: Teres_List; Stewart Ono > > Subject: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > > > > > > All, > > > > I'm forwarding this on Stu's behalf. Strangely > Stu can receive posts but > > cannot send them. > > > > Stu can source Regas at cost. The endless > resources of this > > group continue > > to amaze me. > > > > Cheers, > > Thom > > > (Big snip...) > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] RB250 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:33:52 -0700 From: David Dlugos, David Dlugos To: teres@aiko.com I checked with my local dealer to see what they would be willing to sell these for. I threw out a 20 unit quantity as a potential number and this is what he gave me (all in CDN $ -- divide by 1.5 to get approx USD -- no shipping charges or taxes [7% PST in BC + 7% GST if in Canada]): Rega RB250 ...... $250 (~166 USD) Rega RB300 ...... $400 (~266 USD) knowing the dealer they (my educated guess) would do the distribution to individuals (unless they are restricted to selling in Canada, in which case a work-around could be found) and probably be satisfied with a mix to get the quanity. dave __________________ Transmission Line Speaker Page http://www.t-linespeakers.org/ Subject: RE: [teres] RB250 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:13:56 -0700 From: Fritz Moore, Fritz Moore To: teres@aiko.com Considering the quantity of tonearms we may purchase, I wonder if we could buy straight from Rega. We could tell them this is a high end table that we want to supply with Rega arms. Who knows some of those more involved in the design and manufacture of this table may end up with a second income so sourcing an arm straight from Rega and buying 20 now might facilitate future supplies. Im always surprised by the size of the earth but I cant imagine that Rega ships huge quantities of these arms to anbody at one time. I would certainly second buying a stock arm and developing our own mod. I bet we can improve upon the alteration if we do it in quantity. Was there ever a ball park price put out on the motor controller? I remember the motor itself at about $60.00 US? Fritz -----Original Message----- From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of David Dlugos Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 11:32 AM To: teres@aiko.com Subject: Re: [teres] RB250 I checked with my local dealer to see what they would be willing to sell these for. I threw out a 20 unit quantity as a potential number and this is what he gave me (all in CDN $ -- divide by 1.5 to get approx USD -- no shipping charges or taxes [7% PST in BC + 7% GST if in Canada]): Rega RB250 ...... $250 (~166 USD) Rega RB300 ...... $400 (~266 USD) knowing the dealer they (my educated guess) would do the distribution to individuals (unless they are restricted to selling in Canada, in which case a work-around could be found) and probably be satisfied with a mix to get the quanity. dave __________________ Transmission Line Speaker Page http://www.t-linespeakers.org/ Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:15:23 -0700 From: William B, William B To: teres@aiko.com Hey folks, If a significant portion of people are interested in a RB250 AND the OL upgrades, the best approach would be to do a quick pre-order estimate and approach OL on a group purchase. Any one thinking of the Benz glider cartridge as well???? BTW David Dlgos... what part of BC ya live in? best bill... in for a penny in for a pound. Vancouver BC -----Original Message----- From: Peter Boser To: teres@aiko.com Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 8:40 AM Subject: RE: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy >Hate to put a fly in the ointment, but isn't the price >from Origin live for an unmodified arm substantially >less than $200? (Especially since non EU people can >deduct the VAT.) >Pete >P.S. Stu, no offense intended -- thanks for being >willing to put yourself out! > >> > From: owner-teres@aiko.com >> [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of >> > Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella >> > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 10:35 PM >> > To: Teres_List; Stewart Ono >> > Subject: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy >> > >> > >> > All, >> > >> > I'm forwarding this on Stu's behalf. Strangely >> Stu can receive posts but >> > cannot send them. >> > >> > Stu can source Regas at cost. The endless >> resources of this >> > group continue >> > to amaze me. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Thom >> > >> (Big snip...) >> >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:49:17 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com I suggested this yesterday. Anyone stepping up to the plate? Peter C ----- Original Message ----- From: "William B" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 1:13 PM Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > Hey folks, > > If a significant portion of people are interested in a RB250 AND the OL > upgrades, the best approach would be to do a quick pre-order estimate and > approach OL on a group purchase. Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:01:52 -0700 From: Jeremy Epstein, Jeremy Epstein To: teres@aiko.com I'm not really knowledgeable about arms - is this a very good match for our superduper tt? -j phclark wrote: > > I suggested this yesterday. Anyone stepping up to the plate? > > Peter C > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William B" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 1:13 PM > Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > > > Hey folks, > > > > If a significant portion of people are interested in a RB250 AND the > OL > > upgrades, the best approach would be to do a quick pre-order estimate and > > approach OL on a group purchase. -- ========================================= Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com ========================================= Sherwood Securities ... .. (800) 435 1240 ========================================= Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:43:56 -0700 From: George Munger, George Munger To: teres@aiko.com I am interested in the RB 250 with OL upgrade. Thanks. George W. Munger. >>> "phclark" 02/22 3:18 PM >>> I suggested this yesterday. Anyone stepping up to the plate? Peter C ----- Original Message ----- From: "William B" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 1:13 PM Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > Hey folks, > > If a significant portion of people are interested in a RB250 AND the OL > upgrades, the best approach would be to do a quick pre-order estimate and > approach OL on a group purchase. Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:30:06 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com Hi Steve, It's certainly good to have choices. You obviously have either e-mailed or spoken with them because I don't see anything about their VTA adjuster on their site. One of the Origin counterweight mods includes a replacement stub. This is more important on the 250 becuase it comes with a plastic stub stock. I believe arms from the 300 up are some form of metal. Any info on a replacement stub from them? Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: steve brooks To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Also, in case you were not aware, Express Machining(the Lift folks) have released a replacement counterweight for the Rega http://www.expressmachining.com/heavy-wt/heavy.html for $80 and should have available any day now a VTA adjuster for the Rega for I think $40. Steve > I speculate the mechanical wizards in the present assemblage might be able > to improve on the Origin Mod. There would be the advantage of having > complete control over whatever modifications might be made. After all, > Origin is marketing a one size fits all "fix." The question then arises > whether our speculated "in house" mod would be price and performance > competitive with Origin's. Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:01:43 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com You raise a good question, Jeremy. Although the Rega is considered to be fairly universal, the remote possibility exists that it will not like to sit on something as massive as what most of our designs are going to end up as. I strongly suspect however that this is *not* the case. I have only circumstantial evidence to back this up however ... Basis has been supplying Regas on their less expensive Model 1400 for quite a while now and they lean toward the massive table solution. They have a good enough reputation to install the arm which they feel makes their 'table perform the best. IOW, I doubt that they're fitting the Rega on these 'tables in order to make themselves look good. Their mucho expensive 'tables tend to be fitted with Graham arms, BTW. Further circumstantial evidence is the fact that Tony Glynn has been recommending the "cheap" Basis with Rega Arm and Benz Glider cartridge to people looking to get into good analog in the neighborhood of $2K. He used the Model 1400/Rega/Benz with Ron Welborne at the last VSAC. Matching cartridge to arm is probably the main issue. Medium to low compliance cartridges (just about everything produced these days) is the ticket. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeremy Epstein To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy I'm not really knowledgeable about arms - is this a very good match for our superduper tt? -j Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:01:47 -0700 From: Kalman Rubinson, Kalman Rubinson To: teres@aiko.com On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella wrote: > It's certainly good to have choices. You obviously have either e-mailed or > spoken with them because I don't see anything about their VTA adjuster on > their site. Dunno about www.expressmachining.com but Sal sent me a few sheets with neat mods and good info on Regas. It came with the HeavyWeight which I'll try as soon as I finish the rewiring. > One of the Origin counterweight mods includes a replacement stub. This is > more important on the 250 becuase it comes with a plastic stub stock. I > believe arms from the 300 up are some form of metal. Any info on a > replacement stub from them? ?? The RB300 stub is steel but still threaded. Kal Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:08:23 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 2/22/00 08:29, Mackris, Thom G. at tgmackris@vicorpinc.com wrote: > Check Origin Live's site, Paul http://www.originlive.com/index.htm > > After replacing the plastic counterweight stub with a stainless one, the 250 > is superior to a 300 with the same stub replacement. All arms from the 300 > and above use a spring for tracking force which is supposed to rattle around > according to Origin. > > Thom True, but. . . the spring acts in opposition to the downward force of gravity on the RB-300 arm. When the VTF knob is turned up to maximum (slightly > 3 grams) the spring is effectively taken out of the picture. Balancing the arm at this point and them slowly moving the counterweight in toward the pivot to add VTF, while measuring with a scale like the Shure or Oracle allows the RB-300 to be used sans spring effects. I am not aware of "rattling" but then I don't have a -250 to compare to. I think Stu's offer represents a great deal, and I would be right there if I didn't already have 2 of the -300's. Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:02:09 -0700 From: steve brooks, steve brooks To: teres@aiko.com You obviously have either e-mailed or > spoken with them because I don't see anything about their VTA adjuster on > their site. I read about it in Primyl Vinyl and then confirmed via email > One of the Origin counterweight mods includes a replacement stub. This is > more important on the 250 becuase it comes with a plastic stub stock. I > believe arms from the 300 up are some form of metal. Any info on a > replacement stub from them? > No stub that I know of...You know I now remember from Primyl Vinyl that Express Machining will be offering completely modded Regas....new armwire,Heavyweight..not sure what else or how much. Steve Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:35:39 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com Thanks for the clarification Steve. I was trying to figure out why Origin recommended setting the tracking force spring to 3 grams, then using the counterbalance to achieve the proper tracking force. I was trying to follow their position, realizing that they were taking the extreme stance of picking every nit - not necessarily of endorsing one arm over the other based on any glaring weakness in the RB300. What confuses me is why one spring position or another (i.e. fully "wound up" or completely relaxed) would eliminate the supposed vibrations from the spring. My guess is that they're trying to say that in the 3 gram position (completely relaxed?), any spring vibrations are lower in frequency and are more easily filtered by the mass of the arm than the vibrations which would emanate from a fully tensioned spring. I'll bet you'd be hard pressed to find a difference between two RB300's - one which is stock and one with a spring which was surgically removed. I hope my earlier e-mail didn't convey that RB300 owners should give up and slit their wrists. Now that we've cleared that up, let me stir the pot again :-)) For all of you out there who inclined toward counting the angels on the head of a pin and/or other obsessive types: Rega says that the bearings on the RB300 are slightly better than those on the RB250. I can't recall if they say that bearings are selected after producton or that the more expensive arms have "better" bearings specified from their supplier. I seem to recall them saying the former. Origin (and Thorsten Loesch) say that there is no substantive (audible) difference between the bearings of the two models. Although I'm not in the market for another arm (I'm quite happy with my Audiocraft uni-pivot), if I were, I'd probably vote with my dollars and get the RB250 - not because of the spring issue, but merely to put my dollars somewhere else in the system. I'd be able to sleep nights with this decision. Cheers, Thom Original Message ----- From: Steve Zettel To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy on 2/22/00 08:29, Mackris, Thom G. at tgmackris@vicorpinc.com wrote: > Check Origin Live's site, Paul http://www.originlive.com/index.htm > > After replacing the plastic counterweight stub with a stainless one, the 250 > is superior to a 300 with the same stub replacement. All arms from the 300 > and above use a spring for tracking force which is supposed to rattle around > according to Origin. > > Thom True, but. . . the spring acts in opposition to the downward force of gravity on the RB-300 arm. When the VTF knob is turned up to maximum (slightly > 3 grams) the spring is effectively taken out of the picture. Balancing the arm at this point and them slowly moving the counterweight in toward the pivot to add VTF, while measuring with a scale like the Shure or Oracle allows the RB-300 to be used sans spring effects. I am not aware of "rattling" but then I don't have a -250 to compare to. I think Stu's offer represents a great deal, and I would be right there if I didn't already have 2 of the -300's. Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:53:58 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Steve, Wouldn't this mean that, at 3g, the spring is just stretched to the max, merely raising the pitch of its resonance to a lively "zzzing" sound? I don't know how it is attached, but, if that guess is correct, there is another way, which I employed to damp the anti-skate spring of my modded Dual. Assuming access to that spring, of course. Just *grease* the thing with the thickest grease you can find. The spring will still work just fine, but the grease will damp it nicely, and cost next to nothing. Igor --- Steve Zettel wrote: > on 2/22/00 08:29, Mackris, Thom G. at > tgmackris@vicorpinc.com wrote: > > > Check Origin Live's site, Paul > http://www.originlive.com/index.htm > > > > After replacing the plastic counterweight stub > with a stainless one, the 250 > > is superior to a 300 with the same stub > replacement. All arms from the 300 > > and above use a spring for tracking force which is > supposed to rattle around > > according to Origin. > > > > Thom > > True, but. . . the spring acts in opposition to the > downward force of > gravity on the RB-300 arm. When the VTF knob is > turned up to maximum > (slightly > 3 grams) the spring is effectively taken > out of the picture. > Balancing the arm at this point and them slowly > moving the counterweight in > toward the pivot to add VTF, while measuring with a > scale like the Shure or > Oracle allows the RB-300 to be used sans spring > effects. I am not aware of > "rattling" but then I don't have a -250 to compare > to. > > I think Stu's offer represents a great deal, and I > would be right there if I > didn't already have 2 of the -300's. > > Steve Z > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:50:28 -0700 From: Schei, Kenneth, Schei, Kenneth To: 'teres@aiko.com' Steve: other reasons why I prefer the 250 to the 300 are that it has some brass components instead of stainless steel, and it has a two-sided bearing instead of the 300's one-sided bearing. Ken Ken Schei, P.E. Project Engineer Antarctic Support Associates Email address: scheike@asa.org Phone: 303-643-0163 > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Zettel [SMTP:zettel@libby.org] > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 8:05 PM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > > on 2/22/00 08:29, Mackris, Thom G. at tgmackris@vicorpinc.com wrote: > > > Check Origin Live's site, Paul http://www.originlive.com/index.htm > > > > After replacing the plastic counterweight stub with a stainless one, the > 250 > > is superior to a 300 with the same stub replacement. All arms from the > 300 > > and above use a spring for tracking force which is supposed to rattle > around > > according to Origin. > > > > Thom > > True, but. . . the spring acts in opposition to the downward force of > gravity on the RB-300 arm. When the VTF knob is turned up to maximum > (slightly > 3 grams) the spring is effectively taken out of the picture. > Balancing the arm at this point and them slowly moving the counterweight > in > toward the pivot to add VTF, while measuring with a scale like the Shure > or > Oracle allows the RB-300 to be used sans spring effects. I am not aware of > "rattling" but then I don't have a -250 to compare to. > > I think Stu's offer represents a great deal, and I would be right there if > I > didn't already have 2 of the -300's. > > Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:11:35 -0700 From: Kalman Rubinson, Kalman Rubinson To: teres@aiko.com On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Igor Kuznetsoff wrote: > Steve, > Wouldn't this mean that, at 3g, the spring is > just stretched to the max, merely raising the pitch of > its resonance to a lively "zzzing" sound? The opposite: At 3 grams, it's not stretched; at 0 grams, it is stretched maximally. My approach is to PRESET the dial to a setting equal to (3g minus desired tracking force) before balancing the counterweight. After acheiving static balance, I turn the dial to 3 grams and I get 1) no spring tension and 2) correct tracking force. Kal Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:35:44 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com I need to get my hands on one of these, to take apart & see how to make it tick better. I'm sure this would not be difficult. Igor --- Kalman Rubinson wrote: > On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Igor Kuznetsoff wrote: > > > Steve, > > Wouldn't this mean that, at 3g, the spring > is > > just stretched to the max, merely raising the > pitch of > > its resonance to a lively "zzzing" sound? > > The opposite: At 3 grams, it's not stretched; at 0 > grams, it > is stretched maximally. > > My approach is to PRESET the dial to a setting equal > to > (3g minus desired tracking force) before balancing > the > counterweight. After acheiving static balance, I > turn the > dial to 3 grams and I get 1) no spring tension and > 2) correct tracking force. > > Kal > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:43:17 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 2/23/00 00:53, Igor Kuznetsoff at gorkuz@yahoo.com wrote: > Steve, > Wouldn't this mean that, at 3g, the spring is > just stretched to the max, merely raising the pitch of > its resonance to a lively "zzzing" sound? I don't > know > how it is attached, but, if that guess is correct, > there is another way, which I employed to damp the > anti-skate spring of my modded Dual. Assuming access > to that spring, of course. Just *grease* the thing > with the thickest grease you can find. The spring > will still work just fine, but the grease will damp it > nicely, and cost next to nothing. > > Igor Turning the Rega VTF dial up reduces spring tension, turning it down increases spring tension. Steve Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 00:02:12 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Steve, Kal Rubinson mentioned this also. I need to dissect one to see how to make it tick better. Regardless of which way you turn it, or the sound & frequency of resonance, if you haven't removed it, and given the hearsay suggestion that at least Origin Live considers the spring to be a problem, grease it. Can't hurt. Igor --- Steve Zettel wrote: > on 2/23/00 00:53, Igor Kuznetsoff at > gorkuz@yahoo.com wrote: > > > Steve, > > Wouldn't this mean that, at 3g, the spring is > > just stretched to the max, merely raising the > pitch of > > its resonance to a lively "zzzing" sound? I don't > > know > > how it is attached, but, if that guess is correct, > > there is another way, which I employed to damp the > > anti-skate spring of my modded Dual. Assuming > access > > to that spring, of course. Just *grease* the > thing > > with the thickest grease you can find. The spring > > will still work just fine, but the grease will > damp it > > nicely, and cost next to nothing. > > > > Igor > > Turning the Rega VTF dial up reduces spring tension, > turning it down > increases spring tension. > > Steve > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:16:37 -0700 From: Brian, Brian To: teres@aiko.com Use this link to sign up for paypal. Chris, this would be great for sending an "invoice" to those who haven't paid. They can pay you through email. https://secure.paypal.com/refer/pal=briday%40uswest.net Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: George Munger To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 2:32 PM Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > I am interested in the RB 250 with OL upgrade. Thanks. > George W. Munger. > > >>> "phclark" 02/22 3:18 PM >>> > I suggested this yesterday. Anyone stepping up to the plate? > > Peter C > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William B" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 1:13 PM > Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > > > > Hey folks, > > > > If a significant portion of people are interested in a RB250 AND the > OL > > upgrades, the best approach would be to do a quick pre-order estimate and > > approach OL on a group purchase. > > > Subject: RE: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:38:06 -0700 From: Fritz Moore, Fritz Moore To: teres@aiko.com Any estimates on the origin RB250 cost? Will we be able to buy a stock arm? If the second and third buys happen no sooner than they need to to keep schedule with the total project It would make a difference in my participation. Pinching pennys in Grad school. Fritz -----Original Message----- From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of Brian Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 10:22 AM To: teres@aiko.com Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Use this link to sign up for paypal. Chris, this would be great for sending an "invoice" to those who haven't paid. They can pay you through email. https://secure.paypal.com/refer/pal=briday%40uswest.net Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: George Munger To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 2:32 PM Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > I am interested in the RB 250 with OL upgrade. Thanks. > George W. Munger. > > >>> "phclark" 02/22 3:18 PM >>> > I suggested this yesterday. Anyone stepping up to the plate? > > Peter C > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William B" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 1:13 PM > Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > > > > Hey folks, > > > > If a significant portion of people are interested in a RB250 AND the > OL > > upgrades, the best approach would be to do a quick pre-order estimate and > > approach OL on a group purchase. > > > Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:47:52 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com Fritz, You can buy as an individual at any time from Origin, apparently for about $260.00. With good fortune, we will be able to work up some kind of purchase for the masses at some figure lower than that. Stock arms are about $150.00, according to their website. Cheers, Peter C ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fritz Moore" To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 11:21 AM Subject: RE: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > Any estimates on the origin RB250 cost? Will we be able to buy a stock arm? > If the second and third buys happen no sooner than they need to to keep > schedule with the total project It would make a difference in my > participation. > Pinching pennys in Grad school. > > Fritz > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Brian > Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 10:22 AM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > > > Use this link to sign up for paypal. Chris, this would be great for sending > an "invoice" to those who haven't paid. They can pay you through email. > > https://secure.paypal.com/refer/pal=briday%40uswest.net > > Brian > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: George Munger > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 2:32 PM > Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > > > > I am interested in the RB 250 with OL upgrade. Thanks. > > George W. Munger. > > > > >>> "phclark" 02/22 3:18 PM >>> > > I suggested this yesterday. Anyone stepping up to the plate? > > > > Peter C > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "William B" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 1:13 PM > > Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > > > > > > > Hey folks, > > > > > > If a significant portion of people are interested in a RB250 AND the > > OL > > > upgrades, the best approach would be to do a quick pre-order estimate > and > > > approach OL on a group purchase. > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:12:50 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'teres@aiko.com' Note that if you live in an area where there's a Rega dealer, a stock arm will be difficult to purchase from them. They're trying to respect Rega's distribution channels. Buying one of their "modded" arms represents no conflict, however. I'm a bit busy now, but next week, I'll make an initial contact with Origin to see what their feeling is about a group buy. Am I to assume that Stu's pricing is not competitive with Origin's? I've lost track. In either case, a bit "thank you' goes out to Stu for making the offer ... we may still be taking him up on it. Thom -----Original Message----- From: phclark [mailto:phclark@uswest.net] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 11:43 AM To: teres@aiko.com Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy Fritz, You can buy as an individual at any time from Origin, apparently for about $260.00. With good fortune, we will be able to work up some kind of purchase for the masses at some figure lower than that. Stock arms are about $150.00, according to their website. Cheers, Peter C ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fritz Moore" To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 11:21 AM Subject: RE: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > Any estimates on the origin RB250 cost? Will we be able to buy a stock arm? > If the second and third buys happen no sooner than they need to to keep > schedule with the total project It would make a difference in my > participation. > Pinching pennys in Grad school. > > Fritz > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-teres@aiko.com [mailto:owner-teres@aiko.com]On Behalf Of > Brian > Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 10:22 AM > To: teres@aiko.com > Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > > > Use this link to sign up for paypal. Chris, this would be great for sending > an "invoice" to those who haven't paid. They can pay you through email. > > https://secure.paypal.com/refer/pal=briday%40uswest.net > > Brian > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: George Munger > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 2:32 PM > Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > > > > I am interested in the RB 250 with OL upgrade. Thanks. > > George W. Munger. > > > > >>> "phclark" 02/22 3:18 PM >>> > > I suggested this yesterday. Anyone stepping up to the plate? > > > > Peter C > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "William B" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 1:13 PM > > Subject: Re: [teres] RB 250 Group Buy > > > > > > > Hey folks, > > > > > > If a significant portion of people are interested in a RB250 AND the > > OL > > > upgrades, the best approach would be to do a quick pre-order estimate > and > > > approach OL on a group purchase. > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: Rega Pricing Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:32:51 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'Stewart Ono' Hi Stu, Thanks update. I strongly suspected that the Brits had a pricing advantage in order for Origin to offer the arms at that price they do. I hate to see someone's (your) good intentions go unappreciated. Thanks, Thom -----Original Message----- From: Stewart Ono [mailto:audiodir@gte.net] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 1:22 PM To: tgmackris@vicorpinc.com Subject: Rega Hi Thom: No need to post this on the group, but US dealer cost on the Rega 250 is $167.50 without freight ($325 list). I estimated $200 UPS shipping both ways (to me and to the buyer). There apparently is a big difference between the costs in Canada and in England. Stu Subject: [teres] A new twist on VTA Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 21:14:43 -0700 From: steve brooks, steve brooks To: teres@aiko.com All, The new "Heavyweight" for my Rega arm arrived in the mail today, and with it a description of a new table made by the folks at Express Machinig. Here's what caught my attention: The platter moves up and down for on-the-fly VTA adjustment! Could be a boon to all us Rega users....but they also sell a VTA sleeve for the Rega arm which might be a little easier to implement. Anyone have an idea on how this could be accomplished? Steve Subject: Re: [teres] A new twist on VTA Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 22:41:59 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com I recently mentioned the idea of mounting the bearing with nuts on both sides of the subchassis but nixed the idea for reasons of access to the upper nut. Something bugs me about torquing & untorquing the bearing to get VTA adjustment. I can't think of any other ways to slide the platter up and down. Igor is working on an elegant combination of armboard/VTA adjustor, although he hasn't yet committed it to a drawing yet. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: steve brooks To: Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 11:09 PM Subject: [teres] A new twist on VTA > All, > The new "Heavyweight" for my Rega arm arrived in the mail today, and with it > a description of a new table made by the folks at Express Machinig. Here's > what caught my attention: The platter moves up and down for on-the-fly VTA > adjustment! Could be a boon to all us Rega users....but they also sell a VTA > sleeve for the Rega arm which might be a little easier to implement. Anyone > have an idea on how this could be accomplished? > Steve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: [teres] A new twist on VTA Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 23:34:19 -0700 From: Sellek, Grant (TSA), Sellek, Grant (TSA) To: 'teres@aiko.com' Mount the whole plinth on a baseboard that holds the arm. Adjust gap betwen plinth and baseboard. Grant -----Original Message----- From: Thom Mackris [mailto:thom_mackris@yahoo.com] I can't think of any other ways to slide the platter up and down. ----- Original Message ----- From: steve brooks > a description of a new table made by the folks at Express Machinig. Here's > what caught my attention: The platter moves up and down for on-the-fly VTA > adjustment! Subject: Re: [teres] A new twist on VTA Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 04:56:40 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com Moving the platter vertically will have an additional problem attached to it- matching the change with motor pulley height, to maintain alignment. I suppose Jon can figure out a way to work yet another bearing of some sort into the rig to cover this. I have rough sketches of a really solid VTA adjusting system already, but am waiting for dimensions of the Rega arm parts from Stu Ono, before I can refine enough to commit to drawings. The basic system is conceived, though. Igor --- phclark wrote: > Mike LaRosa has an interesting idea as well. I'll > see if I can get him to > pony up. > > Peter C > > -----Original Message----- > From: Thom Mackris > To: teres@aiko.com > Date: Monday, March 06, 2000 9:42 PM > Subject: Re: [teres] A new twist on VTA > > > >I recently mentioned the idea of mounting the > bearing with nuts on both > >sides of the subchassis but nixed the idea for > reasons of access to the > >upper nut. Something bugs me about torquing & > untorquing the bearing to > get > >VTA adjustment. I can't think of any other ways to > slide the platter up > and > >down. > > > > I'm a little late to this party, but am I completely > off base in thinking > that adjusting the platter for VTA is nutso? > > My intent was to figger out some doo-dad to achieve > this with the armboard > instead. Frankly, I've deferred pondering some of > this until I have the > hardware in hand. Many of you have light years more > experience with > production hardware in analogue, I'm playing > catchup. > > My present estimation is that since the arm must, > perforce, move; it is no > great sin to permit movement in the armboard > assembly, at least for > adjustment purposes. I am reliably counseled that > VTA is an essential > feature. For my purposes, I suspect this to be even > more true as much of my > collection has been procured second hand, with no > idea of the provenance of > any piece. Thus, adjusting VTA within limits and > controllably would seem to > be desirable. > > I see no reason to compromise the durability of an > essentially irreplaceable > bearing assembly by messing with it more than once > per setup (maybe to fool > around with lubricants, but that's fairly benign.) > The armboard (in my > proposed setup) will be separate and movable, within > limits. (If these > assemblies are sufficiently massive, I see no > particular reason to rigidly > couple them to the plinth.) Adjustment of the VTA > on an RB 250 I envision > to be akin to an automotive clutch fork with a > vernier adjust, so that > adjustments can be done on the fly. I haven't > worked out the details, > 'cause all I have is photographs to work from, and > they can be deceptive. > > Am I all wet here? > > Hurtling down the path to happy destiny, I remain, > > Peter C > > > >Igor is working on an elegant combination of > armboard/VTA adjustor, > although > >he hasn't yet committed it to a drawing yet. > > > >Cheers, > >Thom > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: steve brooks > >To: > >Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 11:09 PM > >Subject: [teres] A new twist on VTA > > > > > >> All, > >> The new "Heavyweight" for my Rega arm arrived in > the mail today, and with > >it > >> a description of a new table made by the folks at > Express Machinig. > Here's > >> what caught my attention: The platter moves up > and down for on-the-fly > VTA > >> adjustment! Could be a boon to all us Rega > users....but they also sell a > >VTA > >> sleeve for the Rega arm which might be a little > easier to implement. > >Anyone > >> have an idea on how this could be accomplished? > >> Steve > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > >http://im.yahoo.com > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: RE: [teres] A new twist on VTA Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 08:37:48 -0700 From: Jon Lane, Jon Lane To: teres@aiko.com > Moving the platter vertically will have an > additional problem attached to it- matching the change > with motor pulley height, to maintain alignment. I > suppose Jon can figure out a way to work yet another > bearing of some sort into the rig to cover this. Probably could but nobody invited Rube Golberg to _this_ party... > I have rough sketches of a really solid VTA > adjusting system already, but am waiting for > dimensions of the Rega arm parts from Stu Ono, before > I can refine enough to commit to drawings. The basic > system is conceived, though. > > Igor Interestingly, one method for adjusting VTA without simultaneously and unintentionally adjusting LTA is to cause the arm base to scribe an arc about the stylus position. I think I may have drawings somewhere of this implemented into a linear air bearing arm I once intended to build but that's another story. Jon Lane Subject: RE: [teres] A new twist on VTA Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 14:31:38 -0700 From: Igor Kuznetsoff, Igor Kuznetsoff To: teres@aiko.com If you find it, I'm curious. The error is miniscule over the tiny arc-length that VTA adjustment needs, and is normally ignored as it is smaller than the inaccuracies of cartridge setup & arm mounting. Still, I'd like to see what this is, I'm always open to good ideas & novel implementation. Using "what has gone before" can be a time saver, but also guarantees lack of advancement. I hope it's "simple". Igor --- Jon Lane wrote: > > > Interestingly, one method for adjusting VTA without > simultaneously and unintentionally adjusting LTA is > to cause > the arm base to scribe an arc about the stylus > position. I > think I may have drawings somewhere of this > implemented into > a linear air bearing arm I once intended to build > but that's > another story. > > Jon Lane > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: [teres] Tonearm Source Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 15:29:48 -0700 From: Jeremy Epstein, Jeremy Epstein To: teres@aiko.com >From Joenet: > Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 22:48:52 +1100 > From: David Crittle > Subject: [JN] FS: NOS tonearms >From Joenet : > Hey joes > > turned up a few more tonearms recently. They are NOS, ex-Australian > Broadcasting Commission. > > Specs and a pic at: > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=149682&a=1773196 > > Price US$85 each including worldwide air delivery. > > David Crittle > ____________________________ > Visit the Retrovox Where?house at > http://www.users.bigpond.com/retrovox > ____________________________ > Some pics at > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=149682 > ____________________________ > David takes VISA/Mastercard. I have one arm on the way. Can anybody tell from the spec sheet where the mounting hole gets drilled relative to the platter center? -j -- ========================================= Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com ========================================= Subject: Re: [teres] Tonearm Source Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 18:31:37 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: Teres_List Hi Jeremy, I was blocked from viewing the website with the specs on the tonearm until I got back to my hotel room. The two critical dimensions are the 220 mm pivot point to stylus distance (the arm's effective length) and the 15mm overhang specification. The 15mm shown to the left of the 220 mm dimension is entirely *coincidental* and is **not_related_to_the_overhang_specification**. The way the 220 dimension is arrived at is for an average cartridge, you have enough fore and aft adjustment in the mounting slots to land the stylus 220 mm away from the pivot point of the arm. This is the straight line distance shown in the drawing. Stated another way, the average cartridge when mouned in the middle of the mounting slots will find the stylus tip 220 mm from the pivot point. 15mm overhang means that you want to drill the tonearm mounting hole 220 -15 = 205 mm from the record spindle. As I mentioned in my earlier e-mail, I have some charts at home which relate the effective length (the 220 mm in this example) to the overhang. The shorter the effective length, the shorter the overhang. IIRC, the overhang for my arm is around 17mm and the effective length is in the 237 mm range. My arm should be mounted 220 mm from the spindle but due to misinformation, I mounted it 222 mm away. My chart (which I found after mounting the arm) tells me 220mm and I've verified this number's validity from having mounted four different cartridges on my arm (not all my cartridges, I'm not that nuts - two were borrowed). In all 4 cases the cartridges ended up a bit forward in the slots when my cartridge protractor told me everything was hunk dory. This means that if the arm were a couple of millimeters closer to the spindle (as in 220 mm instead of 222 mm), my cartridges would find themselves in the middle of the slot. I'll bet that my charts will end up validating your 15 mm overhang number. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeremy Epstein To: Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2000 2:22 PM Subject: [teres] Tonearm Source > From Joenet: > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 22:48:52 +1100 > > From: David Crittle > > Subject: [JN] FS: NOS tonearms > From Joenet : > > > Hey joes > > > > turned up a few more tonearms recently. They are NOS, ex-Australian > > Broadcasting Commission. > > > > Specs and a pic at: > > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=149682&a=1773196 > > > > Price US$85 each including worldwide air delivery. > > > > David Crittle > > ____________________________ > > Visit the Retrovox Where?house at > > http://www.users.bigpond.com/retrovox > > ____________________________ > > Some pics at > > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=149682 > > ____________________________ > > > > David takes VISA/Mastercard. I have one arm on the way. > > Can anybody tell from the spec sheet where the mounting hole gets > drilled relative to the platter center? > > -j > -- > ========================================= > Jeremy Epstein .........jepstein@shwd.com > ========================================= __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 04:11:07 -0700 From: Sellek, Grant (TSA), Sellek, Grant (TSA) To: 'Teres List' The subject says it all. What goes wrong if one takes a tonearm and stiffens it up *in extremis*, adding much cross section to the armtube, filling the hollow sections with dampening material, and even adding a grease trough and paddle, all with extra balancing weights? Or completely replacing the armtube with some DIY monstrosity? What are the risks if one takes a good bearing set and goes DIY beserk? Also, are there any WWW sites (or other references) that describe the mechanics of a good tonearm: the physics of it, the critical elements, and the pros and cons of the different design approaches? Thanks, Grant Grant Sellek Adelaide, Australia grant.sellek@transport.sa.gov.au Subject: RE: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 08:49:49 -0700 From: Schei, Kenneth, Schei, Kenneth To: 'teres@aiko.com' Grant: On a perfect LP such a tonearm would work well. However, any warps or unevenness in the LP will cause the arm to have to move up and down to allow the stylus to track the groove properly. An arm with a high moment of inertia (e.g. heavy) will resist following those movements an will thus increase the tracking-induced distortion. Likewise any eccentricities of the LP. Cheers, Ken Ken Schei, P.E. Project Engineer Antarctic Support Associates Email address: scheike@asa.org Phone: 303-643-0163 > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellek, Grant (TSA) [SMTP:Grant.Sellek@transport.sa.gov.au] > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 3:11 AM > To: 'Teres List' > Subject: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? > > The subject says it all. What goes wrong if one takes a tonearm and > stiffens > it up *in extremis*, adding much cross section to the armtube, filling the > hollow sections with dampening material, and even adding a grease trough > and > paddle, all with extra balancing weights? Or completely replacing the > armtube with some DIY monstrosity? What are the risks if one takes a good > bearing set and goes DIY beserk? > > Also, are there any WWW sites (or other references) that describe the > mechanics of a good tonearm: the physics of it, the critical elements, and > the pros and cons of the different design approaches? > > Thanks, > Grant > > > Grant Sellek > Adelaide, Australia > grant.sellek@transport.sa.gov.au Subject: Re: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:57:27 -0700 From: MaughanAudio@aol.com, MaughanAudio@aol.com To: teres@aiko.com The best tonearm design would have as little mass as possible at either end of the arm, as much mass at the pivot point as practical, and would also be as rigid as possible. Therefore little inertia would be present for low frequencies such as wrap undulations but as mechanical energy increases in frequency, the arm would act more and more massive. Subject: RE: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 03:13:40 -0700 From: Sellek, Grant (TSA), Sellek, Grant (TSA) To: 'teres@aiko.com' Thanks Ken, now I get it. It's all a compromise for record imperfections. So why do some arms use a "damping trough" arrangement? Isn't that going to increase the arm's resistance to following imperfections, similar to having a high moment of inertia? Grant Grant Sellek Adelaide, Australia grant.sellek@transport.sa.gov.au >-----Original Message----- >From: Schei, Kenneth [mailto:SCHEIKE@asa.org] >Sent: Tuesday, 14 March 2000 1:14 AM >To: 'teres@aiko.com' >Subject: RE: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? >Importance: Low > > >Grant: > >On a perfect LP such a tonearm would work well. However, any warps or >unevenness in the LP will cause the arm to have to move up and >down to allow >the stylus to track the groove properly. An arm with a high moment of >inertia (e.g. heavy) will resist following those movements an will thus >increase the tracking-induced distortion. Likewise any >eccentricities of >the LP. > >Cheers, Ken > >Ken Schei, P.E. >Project Engineer >Antarctic Support Associates >Email address: scheike@asa.org >Phone: 303-643-0163 > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sellek, Grant (TSA) >[SMTP:Grant.Sellek@transport.sa.gov.au] >> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 3:11 AM >> To: 'Teres List' >> Subject: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? >> >> The subject says it all. What goes wrong if one takes a tonearm and >> stiffens >> it up *in extremis*, adding much cross section to the >armtube, filling the >> hollow sections with dampening material, and even adding a >grease trough >> and >> paddle, all with extra balancing weights? Or completely >replacing the >> armtube with some DIY monstrosity? What are the risks if one >takes a good >> bearing set and goes DIY beserk? >> >> Also, are there any WWW sites (or other references) that describe the >> mechanics of a good tonearm: the physics of it, the critical >elements, and >> the pros and cons of the different design approaches? >> >> Thanks, >> Grant >> >> >> Grant Sellek >> Adelaide, Australia >> grant.sellek@transport.sa.gov.au > Subject: RE: [teres] isodamp; lossy approach is not the best? Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 03:46:31 -0700 From: Sellek, Grant (TSA), Sellek, Grant (TSA) To: 'teres@aiko.com' What is the essential nature of the discontent with the "lossy" approach? I cannot imagine why "more rigid materials" should be cause for celebration, unless one was upgrading from a relatively lightweight lossy approach (dare I say a "floppy" approach) to a more massive rigid approach. I can see how this may be an upgrade. But I cannot see why a massive, lossy approach should be flawed. Any takers? Grant Sellek Adelaide, Australia grant.sellek@transport.sa.gov.au >-----Original Message----- >From: Stanley Goudge [mailto:sgoudge@cisco.com] >Sent: Tuesday, 14 March 2000 1:41 AM > >Subject: Re: [teres] isodamp; lossy approach is not the best? > ....BTW most TT designers begin with a lossy >design only to upgrade or >redesign using more rigid materials, SS or aluminum seem to be >materials of choice, not only >for TT but tonearms as well. The lossy route is well travelled >and I believe their are better >routes which will lead us to much higher ground. Subject: RE: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:13:53 -0700 From: Kalman Rubinson, Kalman Rubinson To: 'teres@aiko.com' On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Sellek, Grant (TSA) wrote: > So why do some arms use a "damping trough" arrangement? Isn't that going to > increase the arm's resistance to following imperfections, similar to having > a high moment of inertia? No. A damping trought is an attempt to provide a purely resistive load while (increased) mass is reactive. Kal Subject: RE: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:24:44 -0700 From: Kalman Rubinson, Kalman Rubinson To: 'teres@aiko.com' On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Schei, Kenneth wrote: > Yes, it seems that a damping trough will have similar resistance to > following imperfections. Maybe users of a trough can dis-enable it for > warped records - is anybody familiar with using them? It really depends on matching the amount of resistance to the forces involved. Remember, the damping is adding a resistance to the potential accelerations (reactances). You can overdamp or underdamp. SME provides 3 sizes of paddle for the trough and specific fluids for each arm model. I have gone to lighter viscosity silicones for the SMEIII with the lowest mass pickups (the integrated Shure and Ortofon wands) but found the stock fluid better with the Denon 103D. Kal Subject: RE: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:31:31 -0700 From: Zack Winestine, Zack Winestine To: 'teres@aiko.com' On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Schei, Kenneth wrote: > Grant: > > Yes, it seems that a damping trough will have similar resistance to > following imperfections. Maybe users of a trough can dis-enable it for > warped records - is anybody familiar with using them? In actual practice, proper damping is an essential *aid* in tracking warped records. I have a Townshend 'table which features a front damping trough which actually provides damping at the cartridge headshell (the Mapleknoll tt is the only other deck I know of which had something similar). With the trough in place, a record with a vicious pinch-warp can be played with almost no audible artifacts; with the trough removed the same warp causes the tonearm to literally fly off the record. I think the essential point to remember is that the effect of the damping is proportional to the arm's speed of movement. At the relatively slow speeds involved in tracking groove eccentricities or the up/down slope of a warp, the damping is pretty irrelevent. At the instant of quick acceleration/de-acceleration as the arm must change direction at the bottom and top of a warp, the damping is extremely effective at helping the arm negotiate the change of direction and resisting the inertial forces which would cause it to mis-track. I'm sure that one of the folks out there with a superior knowledge of mechanics can explain this more accurately and elegantly. Zack __________ "We brought fuel to where the fire was" -- Guy Debord the States of Control site www.statesofcontrol.com Subject: RE: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:51:31 -0700 From: Mackris, Thom G., Mackris, Thom G. To: 'teres@aiko.com' Some are easier to disable than others. My Audiocraft unipivot has a large knurled top plate at the bearing. Turning it raises or lowers the damping paddle, adjusting the damping. Thom -----Original Message----- From: Schei, Kenneth [mailto:SCHEIKE@asa.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 7:51 AM To: 'teres@aiko.com' Subject: RE: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? Grant: Yes, it seems that a damping trough will have similar resistance to following imperfections. Maybe users of a trough can dis-enable it for warped records - is anybody familiar with using them? Ken > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellek, Grant (TSA) [SMTP:Grant.Sellek@transport.sa.gov.au] > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 2:14 AM > To: 'teres@aiko.com' > Subject: RE: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? > > Thanks Ken, now I get it. It's all a compromise for record imperfections. > > So why do some arms use a "damping trough" arrangement? Isn't that going > to > increase the arm's resistance to following imperfections, similar to > having > a high moment of inertia? > > Grant > > > Grant Sellek > Adelaide, Australia > grant.sellek@transport.sa.gov.au > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Schei, Kenneth [mailto:SCHEIKE@asa.org] > >Sent: Tuesday, 14 March 2000 1:14 AM > >To: 'teres@aiko.com' > >Subject: RE: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? > >Importance: Low > > > > > >Grant: > > > >On a perfect LP such a tonearm would work well. However, any warps or > >unevenness in the LP will cause the arm to have to move up and > >down to allow > >the stylus to track the groove properly. An arm with a high moment of > >inertia (e.g. heavy) will resist following those movements an will thus > >increase the tracking-induced distortion. Likewise any > >eccentricities of > >the LP. > > > >Cheers, Ken > > > >Ken Schei, P.E. > >Project Engineer > >Antarctic Support Associates > >Email address: scheike@asa.org > >Phone: 303-643-0163 > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sellek, Grant (TSA) > >[SMTP:Grant.Sellek@transport.sa.gov.au] > >> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 3:11 AM > >> To: 'Teres List' > >> Subject: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? > >> > >> The subject says it all. What goes wrong if one takes a tonearm and > >> stiffens > >> it up *in extremis*, adding much cross section to the > >armtube, filling the > >> hollow sections with dampening material, and even adding a > >grease trough > >> and > >> paddle, all with extra balancing weights? Or completely > >replacing the > >> armtube with some DIY monstrosity? What are the risks if one > >takes a good > >> bearing set and goes DIY beserk? > >> > >> Also, are there any WWW sites (or other references) that describe the > >> mechanics of a good tonearm: the physics of it, the critical > >elements, and > >> the pros and cons of the different design approaches? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Grant > >> > >> > >> Grant Sellek > >> Adelaide, Australia > >> grant.sellek@transport.sa.gov.au > > Subject: Re: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:39:55 -0700 From: Doug Kelly, Doug Kelly To: teres@aiko.com > On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Schei, Kenneth wrote: > > > Yes, it seems that a damping trough will have similar resistance to > > following imperfections. Maybe users of a trough can dis-enable it for > > warped records - is anybody familiar with using them? > > It really depends on matching the amount of resistance to > the forces involved. Remember, the damping is adding a > resistance to the potential accelerations (reactances). You > can overdamp or underdamp. > > SME provides 3 sizes of paddle for the trough and specific > fluids for each arm model. I have gone to lighter viscosity > silicones for the SMEIII with the lowest mass pickups (the > integrated Shure and Ortofon wands) but found the stock > fluid better with the Denon 103D. > > Kal > Finally, an opportunity to ask a dumb question: does anyone know the range of viscosities typically used for damping purposes? I was checking out http://www.silicones.net, and realized that I really have no clue what a cSt is, practically speaking. I've been thinking of trying both a headshell damping trough (ET 2 arm, so it's easier than with a pivot) and some sort of platter damping - the air-bearing profiding no viscous damping by itself. (not that I'm 100% convinced that this is necessary, but it's an idea that I've seen resurface in this group, so it's probably worth looking into.) Obviously, this is related to the paddle arrangement, but even a ballpark would be appreciated. thanks Subject: Re: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 16:58:56 -0700 From: Stanley Goudge, Stanley Goudge To: teres@aiko.com; teres@aiko.com Hi Kelly, I like the thick stuff 33,000 cSt for both my ET1 and Sota. I think anything between 20,000 and 30,000 is a good safe range. Stan At 10:28 AM 3/14/2000 -0700, Doug Kelly wrote: > >> On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Schei, Kenneth wrote: >> >> > Yes, it seems that a damping trough will have similar resistance to >> > following imperfections. Maybe users of a trough can dis-enable it >for >> > warped records - is anybody familiar with using them? >> >> It really depends on matching the amount of resistance to >> the forces involved. Remember, the damping is adding a >> resistance to the potential accelerations (reactances). You >> can overdamp or underdamp. >> >> SME provides 3 sizes of paddle for the trough and specific >> fluids for each arm model. I have gone to lighter viscosity >> silicones for the SMEIII with the lowest mass pickups (the >> integrated Shure and Ortofon wands) but found the stock >> fluid better with the Denon 103D. >> >> Kal >> > >Finally, an opportunity to ask a dumb question: does anyone know the >range of viscosities typically used for damping purposes? I was >checking out http://www.silicones.net, and realized that I really have >no clue what a cSt is, practically speaking. I've been thinking of >trying both a headshell damping trough (ET 2 arm, so it's easier than >with a pivot) and some sort of platter damping - the air-bearing >profiding no viscous damping by itself. (not that I'm 100% convinced >that this is necessary, but it's an idea that I've seen resurface in >this group, so it's probably worth looking into.) Obviously, this is >related to the paddle arrangement, but even a ballpark would be >appreciated. > >thanks > Subject: Re: [teres] What is wrong with a big heavy stiff tonearm? Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:32:41 -0700 From: Kalman Rubinson, Kalman Rubinson To: teres@aiko.com On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Stanley Goudge wrote: > I like the thick stuff 33,000 cSt for both my ET1 and Sota. I think anything > between 20,000 and 30,000 is a good safe range. That's pretty standard. I found that even 20,000cSt was too viscous for the SME with the specialized wand/cartridges. Using 1000-10,000 give me back the full range of paddle options. Kal Subject: [teres] Fw: Check this out Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 18:22:00 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: Teres -----Original Message----- From: Richard C Nevill To: Analogue Addicts Date: Friday, March 17, 2000 4:13 PM Subject: Check this out > > Rather an interesting take on tonearms down toward the bottom of the >page. > > http://www.bottlehead.com/loosep/meeting/march_2000_valve_meeting.htm > > >Cheers >Richard Nevill > > >============================= >To Subscribe/Unsubscribe, send email with the subject: > subscribe (or unsubscribe) analogueaddicts >and NO message in the body to: > analogueaddicts@cableinet.co.uk >(Substitute analogueaddicts-digest if you wish the digest.) > >Analogue Addicts Archive at :- >http://www.analogue-domain.org.uk >http://members.tripod.com/markowitzgd > >Please Note New Analogue Addict's posting address at:- > >analogueaddicts@cableinet.co.uk > Subject: Re: [teres] Fw: Check this out Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 04:52:48 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com Doc mentioned this arm at nyNoise. I was planning to pass this along too. Doc is enthused about it. As for me ... well, hearing is believing. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: phclark To: Teres Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 5:15 PM Subject: [teres] Fw: Check this out -----Original Message----- From: Richard C Nevill To: Analogue Addicts Date: Friday, March 17, 2000 4:13 PM Subject: Check this out > > Rather an interesting take on tonearms down toward the bottom of the >page. > > http://www.bottlehead.com/loosep/meeting/march_2000_valve_meeting.htm > > >Cheers >Richard Nevill > > >============================= >To Subscribe/Unsubscribe, send email with the subject: > subscribe (or unsubscribe) analogueaddicts >and NO message in the body to: > analogueaddicts@cableinet.co.uk >(Substitute analogueaddicts-digest if you wish the digest.) > >Analogue Addicts Archive at :- >http://www.analogue-domain.org.uk >http://members.tripod.com/markowitzgd > >Please Note New Analogue Addict's posting address at:- > >analogueaddicts@cableinet.co.uk > Subject: Re: [teres]Check this out/Rega Group purchase interest Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 17:49:04 -0700 From: Chris Brady, Chris Brady To: teres@aiko.com Bill, I have been corresponding with the folks at Origin Live and have some information. If we order at least 20 arms they will give us a 25% discount on the price of the mods. They don't make enough on the Rega arms to offer a discount on the unmodified arms. Here's the pricing for 20+ arms (US dollars): Unmodified RB-250 $152.28 Structural mod $75.44 Internal re-wiring $70.40 External re-wiring $70.40 Bronze phono plugs $20.09 Shipping for all 20 arms to a single location would be $116.51. The total price including shipping for a RB-250 with the structural mod and internal re-wiring would be only $298.11. Not bad at all! I am waiting to hear back from them about if all of the arms need to include the same set of mods/options to get the volume discount. I would think that almost everyone would want the structural mod and the internal re-wire. There would probably not be a consensus for the other mods. I was planning to organize a group purchase once I had all of the information. However, if you would rather take it over that would be fine with me. Chris > > I had the good fortune to attend the VALVE meeting and listening to Randy's > interesting diatribe. > > My conclusion, anyone looking to get in on a RB250 Origin Live group > purchase... I am willing to organize it. > > Best regards, > Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella > To: teres@aiko.com > Date: Saturday, March 18, 2000 2:53 AM > Subject: Re: [teres] Fw: Check this out > > >Doc mentioned this arm at nyNoise. I was planning to pass this along too. > >Doc is enthused about it. As for me ... well, hearing is believing. > > > >Cheers, > >Thom > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: phclark > >To: Teres > >Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 5:15 PM > >Subject: [teres] Fw: Check this out > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Richard C Nevill > >To: Analogue Addicts > >Date: Friday, March 17, 2000 4:13 PM > >Subject: Check this out > > > > > >> > >> Rather an interesting take on tonearms down toward the bottom of the > >>page. > >> > >> http://www.bottlehead.com/loosep/meeting/march_2000_valve_meeting.htm > >> > >> > >>Cheers > >>Richard Nevill > >> > >> > >>============================= > >>To Subscribe/Unsubscribe, send email with the subject: > >> subscribe (or unsubscribe) analogueaddicts > >>and NO message in the body to: > >> analogueaddicts@cableinet.co.uk > >>(Substitute analogueaddicts-digest if you wish the digest.) > >> > >>Analogue Addicts Archive at :- > >>http://www.analogue-domain.org.uk > >>http://members.tripod.com/markowitzgd > >> > >>Please Note New Analogue Addict's posting address at:- > >> > >>analogueaddicts@cableinet.co.uk > >> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [teres]Check this out/Rega Group purchase interest Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 17:57:27 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com; wmollard@dowco.com Fine with me. I'll be happy to help, if you need some. Can I suggest: This has already been a subject of some discussion. We know we can buy the bare arm from Origin onesey for dollars X. Part of the inquiry ought include a quote request from Origin for an appropriate number of bare arms. I think it would be useful to discover how many different mods apart from Origin, particularly to the counterweight stub and counter weight itself, that there are and who on this list might have any experience with them. I've had brief correspondence with Steve Brooks concerning the Express Machining VTA, as well. Presently this particular item is a bit of a mystery. I, for one, would like some implementation for a VTA, preferably before I start assembling the 'table. Apparently, VTA for Regas is a little problematic. The hard-core position appears to be "adjust on the fly," which is OK by me, if it can be done without a bunch of monkey motion. It strikes me that, within limits, once an arm/cart is adjusted, you're kind of done. I don't find much musical enjoyment in constantly adjusting my gear, absolute phase is about as far I want to go routinely. On the strength of that, it seems to me that, rather than adjusting the arm assembly, it might be more efficacious to adjust the whole "armboard" (however you want to go about this.) This appraoch might help eliminate unwanted compliance in the arm assembly itself, putting any compliance under the full weight of the armboard. I've doped something out in my head about this, but it requires a bunch of fiddly parts to be assembled, etc., etc. There's probably a better(read, simpler) way. Anyway, a simple poll of inTERESted parties seems to be in order, so that we can get this portion on track. Selfishly, if someone could devise a unique Subject header for this, it would make it easier for me to keep track of... My $0.02. Peter C -----Original Message----- From: WMollard To: teres@aiko.com Date: Saturday, March 18, 2000 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [teres]Check this out/Rega Group purchase interest >I had the good fortune to attend the VALVE meeting and listening to Randy's >interesting diatribe. > >My conclusion, anyone looking to get in on a RB250 Origin Live group >purchase... I am willing to organize it. > >Best regards, >Bill >-----Original Message----- >From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella >To: teres@aiko.com >Date: Saturday, March 18, 2000 2:53 AM >Subject: Re: [teres] Fw: Check this out > > >>Doc mentioned this arm at nyNoise. I was planning to pass this along too. >>Doc is enthused about it. As for me ... well, hearing is believing. >> >>Cheers, >>Thom >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: phclark >>To: Teres >>Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 5:15 PM >>Subject: [teres] Fw: Check this out >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Richard C Nevill >>To: Analogue Addicts >>Date: Friday, March 17, 2000 4:13 PM >>Subject: Check this out >> >> >>> >>> Rather an interesting take on tonearms down toward the bottom of the >>>page. >>> >>> http://www.bottlehead.com/loosep/meeting/march_2000_valve_meeting.htm >>> >>> >>>Cheers >>>Richard Nevill >>> >>> >>>============================= >>>To Subscribe/Unsubscribe, send email with the subject: >>> subscribe (or unsubscribe) analogueaddicts >>>and NO message in the body to: >>> analogueaddicts@cableinet.co.uk >>>(Substitute analogueaddicts-digest if you wish the digest.) >>> >>>Analogue Addicts Archive at :- >>>http://www.analogue-domain.org.uk >>>http://members.tripod.com/markowitzgd >>> >>>Please Note New Analogue Addict's posting address at:- >>> >>>analogueaddicts@cableinet.co.uk >>> >> >> >> >> > > Subject: Re: [teres]Check this out/Rega Group purchase interest Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 23:16:54 -0700 From: Zack Winestine, Zack Winestine To: teres@aiko.com CC: wmollard@dowco.com On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, phclark wrote: > > I think it would be useful to discover how many different mods apart from > Origin, particularly to the counterweight stub and counter weight itself, > that there are and who on this list might have any experience with them. In terms of structural mods, Origin Live is it as far as I know. Express has their 'Heavy Weight', but this is designed to simply screw into the existing armstub. FWIW, OL claims that rigidly mounting the armweight to the existing stub will *not* enhance the arm's performance and may actually harm it. > I've had brief correspondence with Steve Brooks concerning the Express > Machining VTA, as well. Presently this particular item is a bit of a > mystery. I, for one, would like some implementation for a VTA, preferably > before I start assembling the 'table. OL makes a VTA collar for the Rega arm. I have no experience with this, but it may be worth checking out. Townshend Audio also makes a VTA collar, which I also haven't seen. My guess is that it would be much faster and simpler to deal with OL. Compared to a stock RB300, my OL 250 seemed a bit more neutral overall, more revealing of detail, and the bass was cleaner and stronger. Both arms using a Grado Sonata on my Townshend table, but be aware that about 6 weeks passed between hearing the two arms so no direct comparison was possible. Zack Subject: Re: [teres]Check this out/Rega Group purchase interest Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 23:35:16 -0700 From: Zack Winestine, Zack Winestine To: teres@aiko.com CC: wmollard@dowco.com On Sun, 19 Mar 2000, Zack Winestine wrote: > > Compared to a stock RB300, my OL 250 seemed a bit more neutral overall, > more revealing of detail, and the bass was cleaner and stronger. Both > arms using a Grado Sonata on my Townshend table, but be aware that about 6 > weeks passed between hearing the two arms so no direct comparison was > possible. Whoops - I meant to write that RB 300 had the stock counterweight, but had been internally rewired with Cardas. The OL arm had all the mods: counterweight, internal and external wire, fancy plugs. Zack ______________ STATES OF CONTROL soundtrack now available! The STATES OF CONTROL website www.statesofcontrol.com Subject: Re: [teres] Rega VTA Adjustment Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:12:58 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com All, I know that Igor has worked out an integrated armboard/VTA adjustment scheme, but currently doesn't have the sophisticated drawing software to make something transmittable out of it. I too was entertaining thoughts of an adjustable armboard but had questions about how this could be easily done while still addressing many of the issues we've been beating into the ground recently about energy transmission. The only thing I can come up with is a fairly massive armboard - say the full 2" thick which is required to get the mounting plane to ~ 1" below the plane of the platter. The armboard would mount into threaded inserts in the chassis. The problem with this is that you'd need lock nuts against both the bottom of the armboard as well as the chassis. This scheme doesn't even begin to address the energy transmission issues. There has to be a better way ... Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: phclark To: ; Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [teres]Check this out/Rega Group purchase interest Fine with me. I'll be happy to help, if you need some. Can I suggest: This has already been a subject of some discussion. We know we can buy the bare arm from Origin onesey for dollars X. Part of the inquiry ought include a quote request from Origin for an appropriate number of bare arms. I think it would be useful to discover how many different mods apart from Origin, particularly to the counterweight stub and counter weight itself, that there are and who on this list might have any experience with them. I've had brief correspondence with Steve Brooks concerning the Express Machining VTA, as well. Presently this particular item is a bit of a mystery. I, for one, would like some implementation for a VTA, preferably before I start assembling the 'table. Apparently, VTA for Regas is a little problematic. The hard-core position appears to be "adjust on the fly," which is OK by me, if it can be done without a bunch of monkey motion. It strikes me that, within limits, once an arm/cart is adjusted, you're kind of done. I don't find much musical enjoyment in constantly adjusting my gear, absolute phase is about as far I want to go routinely. On the strength of that, it seems to me that, rather than adjusting the arm assembly, it might be more efficacious to adjust the whole "armboard" (however you want to go about this.) This appraoch might help eliminate unwanted compliance in the arm assembly itself, putting any compliance under the full weight of the armboard. I've doped something out in my head about this, but it requires a bunch of fiddly parts to be assembled, etc., etc. There's probably a better(read, simpler) way. Anyway, a simple poll of inTERESted parties seems to be in order, so that we can get this portion on track. Selfishly, if someone could devise a unique Subject header for this, it would make it easier for me to keep track of... My $0.02. Peter C -----Original Message----- From: WMollard To: teres@aiko.com Date: Saturday, March 18, 2000 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [teres]Check this out/Rega Group purchase interest >I had the good fortune to attend the VALVE meeting and listening to Randy's >interesting diatribe. > >My conclusion, anyone looking to get in on a RB250 Origin Live group >purchase... I am willing to organize it. > >Best regards, >Bill >-----Original Message----- >From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella >To: teres@aiko.com >Date: Saturday, March 18, 2000 2:53 AM >Subject: Re: [teres] Fw: Check this out > > >>Doc mentioned this arm at nyNoise. I was planning to pass this along too. >>Doc is enthused about it. As for me ... well, hearing is believing. >> >>Cheers, >>Thom >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: phclark >>To: Teres >>Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 5:15 PM >>Subject: [teres] Fw: Check this out >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Richard C Nevill >>To: Analogue Addicts >>Date: Friday, March 17, 2000 4:13 PM >>Subject: Check this out >> >> >>> >>> Rather an interesting take on tonearms down toward the bottom of the >>>page. >>> >>> http://www.bottlehead.com/loosep/meeting/march_2000_valve_meeting.htm >>> >>> >>>Cheers >>>Richard Nevill >>> >>> >>>============================= >>>To Subscribe/Unsubscribe, send email with the subject: >>> subscribe (or unsubscribe) analogueaddicts >>>and NO message in the body to: >>> analogueaddicts@cableinet.co.uk >>>(Substitute analogueaddicts-digest if you wish the digest.) >>> >>>Analogue Addicts Archive at :- >>>http://www.analogue-domain.org.uk >>>http://members.tripod.com/markowitzgd >>> >>>Please Note New Analogue Addict's posting address at:- >>> >>>analogueaddicts@cableinet.co.uk >>> >> >> >> >> > > Subject: Re: [teres]Check this out/Rega Group purchase interest Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 09:36:14 -0700 From: Zack Winestine, Zack Winestine To: teres@aiko.com On Sun, 19 Mar 2000, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella wrote: > > So ... for folks interested in an RB250 with the internal silver litz wiring > mod, counterweight and stub replacement, the quantity price is $290 plus > shipping. The only "mod" left out in this price is their DIN to RCA tonearm > cable. I forget the price they charge for this, but I'm guessing that there > won't be a lot of takers on this - I may be wrong. IMHO, The main reason to get the OL external cable (aside from the fact that it is quite a good cable for the price) is that there is *no* DIN plug between the internal and external cable -- the two are hard wired. Eliminating the extra set of connections seems like a big plus to me when dealing with the low-level phono signal, and well worth the trade-off of not being able to swap external cables back and forth. Others may have different priorities... Zack Subject: Re: [teres]Check this out/Rega Group purchase interest Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 09:54:21 -0700 From: phclark, phclark To: teres@aiko.com My thinking exactly. One of the things on my "to do" list is to hardwire my "A" 'table. Another issue related to this is the notion of getting the capacitance on the cart/preamp wiring correct. This is cartridge specific, but fairly easy to do if you've settled on one cart or have multiple phono inputs, as I do. Without having direct experience, it strikes me as sensible to simplify the wiring as much as possible, removing as many junctions/terminations as you can. I think this affords better control of signal quality. Peter C ----Original Message----- From: Zack Winestine To: teres@aiko.com Date: Sunday, March 19, 2000 8:36 AM Subject: Re: [teres]Check this out/Rega Group purchase interest >On Sun, 19 Mar 2000, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella wrote: >> >> So ... for folks interested in an RB250 with the internal silver litz wiring >> mod, counterweight and stub replacement, the quantity price is $290 plus >> shipping. The only "mod" left out in this price is their DIN to RCA tonearm >> cable. I forget the price they charge for this, but I'm guessing that there >> won't be a lot of takers on this - I may be wrong. > >IMHO, The main reason to get the OL external cable (aside from the fact >that it is quite a good cable for the price) is that there is *no* DIN >plug between the internal and external cable -- the two are hard >wired. Eliminating the extra set of connections seems like a big plus to >me when dealing with the low-level phono signal, and well worth the >trade-off of not being able to swap external cables back and >forth. Others may have different priorities... > >Zack > > Subject: Re: [teres]Check this out/Rega Group purchase interest Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 10:24:05 -0700 From: Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella To: teres@aiko.com Very interesting, Phil, Zack! I didn't even think to consider that Rega was hardwired where the DIN plug is on conventional arms! I knew about the cartridge end. You both make an excellent case for an "all or none" rewire". I'll bet that most of us would not be inclined to remove the DIN plug from their existing cable and solder it to the connection terminal at the base of the arm. Cheers, Thom PS. Anyone who wants to see "visual" can check the DIY rewire page on hi-fi.com: http://www.hi-fi.com/diy/rega/ http://www.hi-fi.com/diy/rega/steps.html ----- Original Message ----- From: phclark To: Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2000 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [teres]Check this out/Rega Group purchase interest My thinking exactly. One of the things on my "to do" list is to hardwire my "A" 'table. Another issue related to this is the notion of getting the capacitance on the cart/preamp wiring correct. This is cartridge specific, but fairly easy to do if you've settled on one cart or have multiple phono inputs, as I do. Without having direct experience, it strikes me as sensible to simplify the wiring as much as possible, removing as many junctions/terminations as you can. I think this affords better control of signal quality. Peter C ----Original Message----- From: Zack Winestine To: teres@aiko.com Date: Sunday, March 19, 2000 8:36 AM Subject: Re: [teres]Check this out/Rega Group purchase interest >On Sun, 19 Mar 2000, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella wrote: >> >> So ... for folks interested in an RB250 with the internal silver litz wiring >> mod, counterweight and stub replacement, the quantity price is $290 plus >> shipping. The only "mod" left out in this price is their DIN to RCA tonearm >> cable. I forget the price they charge for this, but I'm guessing that there >> won't be a lot of takers on this - I may be wrong. > >IMHO, The main reason to get the OL external cable (aside from the fact >that it is quite a good cable for the price) is that there is *no* DIN >plug between the internal and external cable -- the two are hard >wired. Eliminating the extra set of connections seems like a big plus to >me when dealing with the low-level phono signal, and well worth the >trade-off of not being able to swap external cables back and >forth. Others may have different priorities... > >Zack > > Subject: Re: [teres]Check this out/Rega Group purchase interest Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 11:12:44 -0700 From: Kalman Rubinson, Kalman Rubinson To: teres@aiko.com CC: wmollard@dowco.com On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, phclark wrote: > I've had brief correspondence with Steve Brooks concerning the Express > Machining VTA, as well. Presently this particular item is a bit of a > mystery. I, for one, would like some implementation for a VTA, preferably > before I start assembling the 'table. We have developed a complete new mount for the RB300 which should apply equally well to the 250. It consists of a dovetail slide with a split threaded insert. This mount permits VTA adjustment from the top of the chassis and eliminates the need to fiddle with the cartridge-mounting screws for overhang. Machining is not terribly complex. Kal Subject: Re: [teres] Rega Group Purchase POST1 Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 11:40:49 -0700 From: WMollard, WMollard To: teres@aiko.com Hi Folks! Thanks Chris your your work thus far on the Rega Group Purchase... and the platter, and the bearing, and the machining, and the motor, and the programming, and the.... I would be please to facilitate this small segeu from the Teres Project; if that is OK? Here is what we know... O/L has been contacted; the group purchase threshold is 20 pieces. Discount on 20 pieces is 25% on mod portion only Shipping for 20 pieces is $116US or $5.80US each Prices for 1 and 20+ pieces NO VAT... all prices USD Single (1) Group (20) Arm ....................................... $136USD $136 Structural Mod ..................... $93 $70 Internal Rewire ..................... $87 $66 External Rewire ................... $87 $66 High Grade Phono Plugs ... $25 $19 REGA GROUP PURCHASE QUESTIONS #1. Can an unmodded arm be bought from O/L if a REGA dealer is available nearby? #2. Must the arms all have mods / the same mods for a volume discount? #3. Does the discount apply to the Rega VTA? #4. Shall we open up the Rega Group Purchase to the General Netizens to increase the likelihood of 20 purchasers? #5. Is the assumption of VAT = 26% correct? GENERAL QUESTIONS #1. Is anyone interested in a bulk purchase of ridiculously expensive internal wire like Cardas Quatrofil or Golden Cross? #2. Does any other outfit offer worthwhile mods for the Rega 250, e.g. counterweight stub, counterweight and VTA? #3. Is there another comparable/better arm to use as a "starter" for a new hand-built 'table? Price is a consideration. #4. Is it difficult to rewire an arm; my thinking is to rewire with ONE wire going from cartridge to the grid of an onboard input tube (shortest distance possible). Once the signal has been amplified then move it to a seperate chassis. GENERAL COMMENTS ON THE O/L REGA Compared to a stock RB300, my OL 250 seemed a bit more neutral overall, more revealing of detail, and the bass was cleaner and stronger. Both arms using a Grado Sonata on my Townshend table, but be aware that about 6 weeks passed between hearing the two arms so no direct comparison was possible. -- Zack Winestine -- ACTION REQUIRED #1. Please submit any other questions for submission to O/L Deadline Sunday, March 26, 2000 #2. Submit, at leisure, any other question regarding the Rega. COMMENTS Deadlines are our friends and are negotiable! General questions will arise regarding tonearms, rewiring, VTA, etc and may be handled better by another Department Head; heads-up.... incoming! There is no current timeline for project conclusion; one will be announced in ample time and consultation best bill Subject: Re: [teres]Check this out/Rega Group purchase interest Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 02:23:50 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com > > Let me make clear that I haven't heard much to either support or contradict > Thorsten's review. Steve Zettel has an Audio Note (rewired by them) RB 300 > & seems to feel that it is worthy of his $1200 Clearaudio cartridge. Since > I only recently started hanging out on the Phonogram list & only consult the > Analog Addicts archives from time to time, I'm not clear what the current > thinking is on this all time "best buy in all of audio" (the RB300 & it's > siblings). How's that for a disclaimer? > > Cheers, > Thom My personal opinion is that it would be hard to go wrong with a Rega RB-250 or 300. There are arguably better arms out there, but Thom pretty much sums it up -- the other arms are considerably more expensive. But it really depends on what features are important to you. The Regas are very simple arms, and their lack of adjustable azimuth and VTA can be viewed as vices or virtues. . . I have not felt that the RB-300 has compromised the performance of my Clearaudio Sigma, and the initial setup and a little tweaking was very painless. BTW, the AudioNote internal arm wiring has been replaced with Joe DePhillips' Discovery Cable tonearm wiring after I broke one of the extremely fine AN wires where it exits the tonearm. I feel the Discovery wire is even better than the AN stuff, and much more robust and easy to work with. I would recommend any user of the stock Rega arms to consider internal wiring. I am contemplating the OL arm tube stub mod and an Express Machining weight. I don't see any information on the EM site about the adjustable VTA option. Is there any way to get a price break on the OL mod or the rest? Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] Turntable base talkings Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 02:23:52 -0700 From: Steve Zettel, Steve Zettel To: teres@aiko.com on 3/19/00 01:58, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella at tmackris@earthlink.net wrote: > Indeed, I can see several subchassis iterations especially for folks like > Steve Zettel and myself who are sitting on a fence between the two camps who > have been "discussing" the alternatives recently. I am thinking of one of each philosophy: inherently dead materials, as stiff as possible, and inherently stiff/rigid materials, damped as much as possible. . . > > For those of us who choose to not go the CNC router route, the idea of a > simple design is quite appealing as it's easily reproducable. Of course > with a template, a complex shape is easily reproducable too. There's always > the option of casting which will certainly simplify the production of more > complex shapes on a more than "one off" basis. > > I made a comment early on about shape which has nothing directly to do with > sonics. I am nervous with a design that has my cantilever hanging over > 4"-5" of air space the way the open chassis "art statement" designs do. The > cantilever looks too vulnerable to breakage IMHO. For this reason alone, I > plan to incorporate an armboard "block" which extends to under the > headshell. I remember you mentioning this, Thom. The Rega armrest and cuing platform would not allow the arm to drop down to the subchassis if the arm weren't locked and somehow got bumped. I leave my arm in the rest with the cuing platform in the up position all the time, unless lowering the arm. This way, even if I go spastic and knock the arm violently toward the platter, it is in the up position and the cantilever clears the rim of the LP. > > An alternative to a big block to protect the cantilever is the "4 poster" > design on Chris' website. I encouraged the design to position the front > post so that it would protect the cantilever when the arm is in the rest. > As I write this, I'm convincing myself of implementing this design. This > bears out the truth of the first sentence in this post . > > Another thing to consider is how you handle your tonearm. I am in the habit > of cueing my records manually. I've noticed that I rest my little finger on > the plinth of my Merril to steady my hand as I'm lowering the arm. > Depending on the shape I arrive at for the tonearm block, I'd be able to use > it for this function. I find the Rega's hydraulic arm cuing rest sinks at just the right speed that I can flip the lever down and get back to my seat before the stylus leaves the lead-in groove. . . Steve Z Subject: Re: [teres] Turntable base talkings Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:56:32 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: teres@aiko.com Hi Steve, When I expressed nervousness about air space under the cantilever, I was referring more to misplaced fingers, (cat's) paws, and other acts of clumsiness and not to accidentally leaving the cueing lever in the down position. The reason I tend to manually cue my Audiocraft arm is because it's a unipivot arm and tends to wobble around when it rests on the cueing support as it "floats" down to the LP. It's difficult to accurately position it over the lead-in groove. Back before I destroyed the periphery clamp on my Merrill (don't ask). I was especially concerned about the stylus landing on the edge of the clamp which grabs the outer third of the lead-in groove. I'm now incurably habituated to manual cueing. Having a place to rest my little finger to steady my hand is an ergonomic function that I'll probably incorporate into my design ... somehow. Cheers, Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Zettel To: Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 1:22 AM Subject: Re: [teres] Turntable base talkings on 3/19/00 01:58, Thom Mackris / Joan Panzella at tmackris@earthlink.net wrote: [ snip ] > I made a comment early on about shape which has nothing directly to do with > sonics. I am nervous with a design that has my cantilever hanging over > 4"-5" of air space the way the open chassis "art statement" designs do. The > cantilever looks too vulnerable to breakage IMHO. For this reason alone, I > plan to incorporate an armboard "block" which extends to under the > headshell. I remember you mentioning this, Thom. The Rega armrest and cuing platform would not allow the arm to drop down to the subchassis if the arm weren't locked and somehow got bumped. I leave my arm in the rest with the cuing platform in the up position all the time, unless lowering the arm. This way, even if I go spastic and knock the arm violently toward the platter, it is in the up position and the cantilever clears the rim of the LP. [ snip ] Steve Z __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: [teres] Rega VTA options Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:52:00 -0700 From: Zack Winestine, Zack Winestine To: teres@aiko.com Hi all - The April Stereophile just arrived, and Mikey F. (in his write-up of analog at the recent CES) mentions that JA Michell (Gyrodec) is coming out with a VTA adjuster for Rega arms: "J.A. Michell has introduced a $39 VTA adjuster of solid anodized aluminum that does not rely on set screws (Basis) or require a larger-diameter hole (VPI)... It adds only 3mm of height at its minimum setting, about 20mm at maximum." More info probably available from Artech, the US Michell distributor (I don't have any contact info, but would assume tht Artech has a web site. Michell does *not* have am official website, since Mr. Michell apparently is not fond of computers... Zack ______________ STATES OF CONTROL soundtrack now available! The STATES OF CONTROL website www.statesofcontrol.com Subject: Re: [teres] Rega VTA options Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:39:24 -0700 From: Kalman Rubinson, Kalman Rubinson To: teres@aiko.com On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, Thom Mackris wrote: > This is *great* info Zack. Even if I don't buy a Rega in the group > purchase, I'd definitely buy a well engineered base for $39 - especially if > it had some form of screw height adjustment as opposed to a set screw > arrangement. As I recall, this required backing off the under-plinth nut to permit the above-plinth adjustment. > On a related subject, Chris & I were talking last night ... what are we > missing? Couldn't you machine a second mounting nut for the Rega which > would be on the top of the armboard. Wouldn't this permit to move the arm > up and down, while still locking it into a rigid position? The only > limitations I can see are the amount of thread available on the Rega to > accomplish this as well as perhaps having enough adjustabilty in the > armboard of choice. Not having handled a Rega, perhaps I'm missing > something. Comments anyone? Let me offer a description: We machined a 2" long delrin (other materials might be considered) tube with an inner thread to accept the RB300 post. Wall thickness was under 1/8" except at the top where it is a little over 1/4" providing a thicker rim. Then the tube was split below the top ring by machining three slots (at 120deg) to the bottom. This tube can be dropped into the circular opening of a clamp such that the top ring sits on the machined upper surface of the clamp. Slight loosening of the clamp permits you to turn the ring while holding the arm to adjust VTA. Tightening the split ring compresses the threads into the RB300 post providing secure pressure along its length. Some of these ideas might be adaptable. Kal > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Zack Winestine > To: > Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 12:51 PM > Subject: [teres] Rega VTA options > > > Hi all - > > The April Stereophile just arrived, and Mikey F. (in his write-up of > analog at the recent CES) mentions that JA Michell (Gyrodec) is coming out > with a VTA adjuster for Rega arms: > > "J.A. Michell has introduced a $39 VTA adjuster of solid anodized aluminum > that does not rely on set screws (Basis) or require a larger-diameter hole > (VPI)... It adds only 3mm of height at its minimum setting, about 20mm at > maximum." > > More info probably available from Artech, the US Michell distributor (I > don't have any contact info, but would assume tht Artech has a web site. > Michell does *not* have am official website, since Mr. Michell apparently > is not fond of computers... > > Zack > ______________ > > STATES OF CONTROL soundtrack now available! > The STATES OF CONTROL website www.statesofcontrol.com > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [teres] Rega Group Purchase POST2 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:18:05 -0700 From: WMollard, WMollard To: teres@aiko.com Hey Chris, I would be please to stick handle this one Chris. Round 2 on the Rega Group Purchase.... REGA GROUP PURCHASE QUESTIONS #1. Can an unmodded arm be bought from O/L if a REGA dealer is available nearby? #2. Must the arms all have mods / the same mods for a volume discount? ANS: No, any combination of mods will receive the group discount. #3. Does the discount apply to the Rega VTA? #4. Shall we open up the Rega Group Purchase to the General Netizens to increase the likelihood of 20 purchasers? #5. Is the assumption of VAT = 26% correct? INCORRECT: Great Britain VAT is 17.5% Recalculated prices reflecting NO VAT, payment in USD Shipping $11US for single and $5.80US for each arm group purchase Single Group (20) Arm $145.94 $109.45 Structural Mod $100.42 $75.31 Internal Wire $93.72 $70.29 External Wire $93.72 $70.29 Plugs $26.78 $20.08 GENERAL QUESTIONS #1. Is anyone interested in a bulk purchase of ridiculously expensive internal wire like Cardas Quatrofil or Golden Cross? One avenue I've intended to pursue for some time involves silver cartridge clips with medical spec teflon insulated 36 ga solid silver wire, hardwired to my MC transformers. I've got the clips, know where to get the wire, have the transformers. Personally, I have no present need to get "ridiculously expensive Cardas Quatrofil." I've had success with Kynar insulated 30 ga silver plated copper (@ $.03/ft.) in 97% braided copper sleeve, terminated with (get this) $0.39 plastic Radio Shack RCAs. I'm presently using 28 ga. solid silver w/teflon insulation. I also have a lifetime supply of 43 ga copper magnet wire that shows great promise. Alan Wright and others have touted smaller gauges, my modest experience agrees. My experience with Litz wire has been uniformly miserable, I've had inductance problems as well as capacitance problems. It also does not have the high end that my experience with silver has given. Litz is a short, blind alley as far as I'm concerned. --Peter Clark-- One avenue I've intended to pursue for some time involves silver cartridge clips with medical spec teflon insulated 36 ga solid silver wire >> Peter knows his stuff. This is excellent wire and I would be extreamly interested in acquiring some along with the clips. I would be also interested in some 30 ga of the same grade of wire. Thanks Peter. The problem I've noted with Litz wire is the added sonic signature of the dielectric. Until again --Gordon-- BTW, the AudioNote internal arm wiring has been replaced with Joe DePhillips' Discovery Cable tonearm wiring after I broke one of the extremely fine AN wires where it exits the tonearm. I feel the Discovery wire is even better than the AN stuff, and much more robust and easy to work with.I would recommend any user of the stock Rega arms to consider internal wiring. --Steve Zettel-- #2. Does any other outfit offer worthwhile mods for the Rega 250, e.g. counterweight stub, counterweight and VTA? In terms of structural mods, Origin Live is it as far as I know. Express has their 'Heavy Weight', but this is designed to simply screw into the existing armstub. FWIW, OL claims that rigidly mounting the armweight to the existing stub will *not* enhance the arm's performance and may actually harm it -- Zack Winestine -- #3. Is there another comparable/better arm to use as a "starter" for a new hand-built 'table? Price is a consideration. My personal opinion is that it would be hard to go wrong with a Rega RB-250 or 300. There are arguably better arms out there, but Thom pretty much sums it up -- the other arms are considerably more expensive. But it really depends on what features are important to you. The Regas are very simple arms, and their lack of adjustable azimuth and VTA can be viewed as vices or virtues. . . I have not felt that the RB-300 has compromised the performance of my Clearaudio Sigma, and the initial setup and a little tweaking was very painless.--Steve Zettel-- #4. Is it difficult to rewire an arm; my thinking is to rewire with ONE wire going from cartridge to the grid of an onboard input tube (shortest distance possible). Once the signal has been amplified then move it to a seperate chassis. GENERAL COMMENTS ON THE O/L REGA Compared to a stock RB300, my OL 250 seemed a bit more neutral overall, more revealing of detail, and the bass was cleaner and stronger. Both arms using a Grado Sonata on my Townshend table, but be aware that about 6 weeks passed between hearing the two arms so no direct comparison was possible. -- Zack Winestine -- ACTION REQUIRED #1. Please submit any other questions for submission to O/L Deadline Sunday, March 26, 2000 #2. Submit, at leisure, any other question regarding the Rega. COMMENTS Deadlines are our friends and are negotiable! General questions will arise regarding tonearms, rewiring, VTA, etc and may be handled better by another Department Head; heads-up.... incoming! There is no current timeline for project conclusion; one will be announced in ample time and consultation best bill Subject: [teres] Fw: The Origin-Live RB 300 Mods: First Thoughts Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:24:05 -0700 From: Thom Mackris, Thom Mackris To: Teres_List All, A "review" found on the phonogram list ... Thom ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Szabady To: Phonogram Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 6:38 AM Subject: The Origin-Live RB 300 Mods: First Thoughts My modified Rega RB 300 arrived yesterday from England whence it had been shipped Tuesday of last week. Total turn-around time for shipping there, having the work done and shipping back, was 17 days. Most of this appears to be the US Mail getting the arm there. I had the complete Origin-Live series of modifications done: new rear arm stub and counterweight, internal and external re-wire, and premium RCA plugs. Total cost was $330.55. I installed the arm on my Linn Sondek LP 12 Nirvana w/ new acrylic-coated arm board; cartridge was the Grado Signature TLZ-V; rest of the system included Townshend Seismic Sink, Ringmat, Meitner PA 6i pre amp and STR 55 power amp, Meitner TransLinks, Sumiko Catalyst interconnects, Sound Lab Dynastats connected with Analysis Plus Oval 9 speaker cable. I used Disc Doctor Stylus Cleaner on DD Record Cleaner-ed LPs. The tonearm had formerly been wrapped with a Warren Gehl arm wrap but I did not re-install this. I used the supplied serrated washer with the arm nut and tightened it, as per Origin-Live recommendation, just a bit past finger tight. I prepared myself for a somewhat grueling audition, expecting to have to make fine and keen discriminations of the differences between the arms. This proved unnecessary as the improvements were readily audible: a wholesale increase in resolution, where every aspect of sonic and musical performance was improved. I hesitate to make a final judgment on a rather short first audition and will post a more in-depth review once positive the cables have 'burned-in'. But my initial impressions are that all the claims made for the arm are true, and then some. I was particularly heartened to hear a synergistic match, finally, with the LP12: the sound had the much-desired Linn sass, verve, and elan vital. So, I'm going to quit *writing* about it and go *listen* to it. More to come. Paul Szabady *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* (C) Phonogram 2000. Redistribution in print or electronic form without permission of the author(s) and/or list administrator(s) is prohibited. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com Subject: Re: [teres] Rega Info Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:56:07 -0700 From: Zack Winestine, Zack Winestine To: teres@aiko.com On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Daus Studenberg wrote: > Hi, > > I am getting ready to start up on the design process pretty soon. I was > wondering if anyone had some installation instructions and dimensions for a > Rega RB-250. I need to know the distance from the tonearm base to the > platter and all other related dimensions. If anyone has this info and could > post it, I would greatly appreciate it. Wally Malewicz says the spindle to arm-pivot distance on the Rega arms should be 222.8 mm (lots of people say 222mm, but I'm inclined to trust Wally. Note that the Origin Live site says 220mm, which is wrong). Wally calculates cartridge overhang should be 17.7mm, using Loefgren geometry. Origin Live says the armboard hole for the Rega arm should be 24 or 25mm (note that this may vary if you are planning on using some sort of third-party VTA base) Zack _______________ STATES OF CONTROL soundtrack CD now available! The STATES OF CONTROL website www.statesofcontrol.com Subject: Re: [teres] Rega Info Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:04:40 -0700 From: Zack Winestine, Zack Winestine To: teres@aiko.com On a related note, Origin Live recommends *not* tightening the lock-down nut on the Rega arm more than finger tight, and in fact provides a slightly sringy metal washer to place under the lock-down nut to further decrease the coupling between the arm and the armboard. (This washer won't fit on the arm when it is mounted on my Townshend's VTA base, so I can't comment on its effects). OL claims that over-tightening the arm to the armboard will 'deaden the music'. This flies in the face of everything I thought I knew about tonearms, which is that rigidity should be maximised, and that any sort of free-play or flexibility will simply interfere with the cartridges ability to record those microscopic grooves. Any thoughts? Zack